juxtiphi Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hi All Its been suggested that Jimmy lifted the riff from Jimi Hendrix's I don't Live Today and I quote "mangled it into the ocean". Is there any veracity to this claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Hi All Its been suggested that Jimmy lifted the riff from Jimi Hendrix's I don't Live Today and I quote "mangled it into the ocean". Is there any veracity to this claim? Did the person making this suggestion have hearing difficulties? No perceptible sense of rhythm? Apart from the fact both are based around a pentatonic scale (which covers just about every Zep AND Hendrix track) I don't think you could even use the word 'similar'. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Page lifted a lot of stuff, but I don't know that this is one of them. I much prefer similarities like these: "Heartbreaker" vs The Venture's "Pedal Pusher" "Bring It On Home" vs James Brown's "Think" "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" vs Bert Jansch's "The Waggonner's Lad" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-RKGrmcess "Four Sticks" vs Davy Graham's "Leaving Blues" "White Summer" vs Davy Graham's "Mustapha" "White Summer" vs Bert Jansch's "Casbah" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSdQGZv3nY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtiphi Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 When I read the comment suggesting this I said to myself, whaaaa? Before I was into Zeppelin I was into Hendrix and I don't live today was one of my favs. Somehow I don't hear it either but this person used the word "mangled", So I thought maybe not being a guitarist I wasn't getting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IpMan Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 ^ Yeah, mangled alright. If that is the case The Sex Pistols "mangled" Chopin's Nocturne #20 in C# to create God Saves the Queen. The similarity begins here: both songs are composed of several varying notes,.........and that's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Only Way To Fly Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I've never heard Davy Graham but I def gonna get some now! Good stuff indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Page lifted a lot of stuff, but I don't know that this is one of them. I much prefer similarities like these: "Heartbreaker" vs The Venture's "Pedal Pusher" "Bring It On Home" vs James Brown's "Think" "Bron-Y-Aur Stomp" vs Bert Jansch's "The Waggonner's Lad" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-RKGrmcess "Four Sticks" vs Davy Graham's "Leaving Blues" "White Summer" vs Davy Graham's "Mustapha" "White Summer" vs Bert Jansch's "Casbah" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlSdQGZv3nY Never heard 'Think' or 'The Waggoner's Lad' before. Sheesh, it's getting harder to defend Jimmy everyday... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dark Lord Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Nah, Jimmy didn't nick the Hendrix did. If it did inspire him, he changed it to such a degree that you would have to say it was his own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasbo Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The only similarities are in the intervals of the first two notes and it begins with first note being played twice.And both are descending riffs.Plenty of them around.Could we argue that AC/DC'sBack in Black with that ascending bit in the riff is the same as the ascending bit in the Ocean.The list goes on.Every guitarist would love to come up with an original riff but ultimately you have borrow a little bit from somewhere as long as its not blatantly obvious then the lawyers start appearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Never heard 'Think' or 'The Waggoner's Lad' before. Sheesh, it's getting harder to defend Jimmy everyday... Another good one for ya: "Going to California" vs "Nottamun Town" by Bert Jansch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 And another: "The Song Remains The Same" vs Davy Graham's "Better Git In Your Soul": Admittedly, this one might be more of a stylistic influence. Although you can hear a lot of the phrasing and chord work similarity. Compare live solos of TSRTS to some of the soloing work here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Hi All Its been suggested that Jimmy lifted the riff from Jimi Hendrix's I don't Live Today and I quote "mangled it into the ocean". Is there any veracity to this claim? Suggested by whom? You? You sound like the reporters who go up to someone and say "Lots of people are saying you blah blah blah" when actually it is a creation of the reporter's imagination. It's a way of accusing someone while trying to make it seem like it came from someone else. I've never heard Davy Graham but I def gonna get some now! Good stuff indeed! I have been recommending Davy Graham to people on this forum from Day 1...Jimmy himself has expressed his deep love and admiration for his guitar playing and the influence Davy had on him...especially acoustically. Start with these three albums...they are essential Davy Graham records for your collection: 1. "Folk, Blues & Beyond" I can't fathom anyone who is a fan of acoustic guitar not liking this album. 2. Davy Graham with Shirley Collins "Folk Roots, New Routes"...The entire album is magic but the last song, "Dearest Dear" will really raise the goosebumps. Not to mention the balls in covering Thelonious Monk's "Blue Monk"! http://youtu.be/luePkefrux0 3. "Large as life and twice as natural" Never heard 'Think' or 'The Waggoner's Lad' before. Sheesh, it's getting harder to defend Jimmy everyday... Naw, don't over-think it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juxtiphi Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Suggested by whom? You? You sound like the reporters who go up to someone and say "Lots of people are saying you blah blah blah" when actually it is a creation of the reporter's imagination. It's a way of accusing someone while trying to make it seem like it came from someone else. Forget your midol today?!! It was suggested by a Hendrix fan at another site in a post they left in the comments section related to some Studio outtakes of Jimi that had been posted. If I wanted to suggest it I would do so myself. I don't need to hide behind a proxy in order to post my own thoughts. http://www.../torrents-details.php?id=517918&page=2#startcomments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raytuned Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 No,I doubt that was Page intent ,but the Hendrix tune might have given page an idea or 2.keep in mind this is common in the music industry,they all do it . notes -vs - sound,is what makes the difference (enter copy right),Let's all remember the famous quote by Plant "There is nothing new ,under the sun" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sathington Willoughby Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 And another: "The Song Remains The Same" vs Davy Graham's "Better Git In Your Soul": Admittedly, this one might be more of a stylistic influence. Although you can hear a lot of the phrasing and chord work similarity. Compare live solos of TSRTS to some of the soloing work here. Interesting stuff, thanks for the shares pluribus! Naw, don't over-think it. haha don't worry about that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grasbo Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Yes as well as the blues fellas Page was/is a huge fan of british folk like Dave Graham,Bert Jansch,etc and let's not forget where Dazed and Confused came from.Had the great fortune to see Jansch and Steffan Gross together in concert many years ago down here in Tasmania.Amazing stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you're talking the opening main riff, I always thought John Paul Jones wrote it. It sounds like a bass line to me, and he has a composing credit. So I think Jimmy is off the hook.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 If you're talking the opening main riff, I always thought John Paul Jones wrote it. It sounds like a bass line to me, and he has a composing credit. So I think Jimmy is off the hook.. Not quite. Are you aware that Jimmy Page performed "Dazed and Confused" (titled "I'm Confused") when he was in the Yardbirds before Jones joined him in Led Zeppelin? A lot of the claims are tenuous at best, but "Dazed and Confused" is one case where Jimmy should have given credit to Jake Holmes. As such, it has been rectified now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Apart from the fact both are based around a pentatonic scale (which covers just about every Zep AND Hendrix track) I don't think you could even use the word 'similar'. Does that also explain the similarities here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44G3Zwm8hgM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Not quite. Are you aware that Jimmy Page performed "Dazed and Confused" (titled "I'm Confused") when he was in the Yardbirds before Jones joined him in Led Zeppelin? A lot of the claims are tenuous at best, but "Dazed and Confused" is one case where Jimmy should have given credit to Jake Holmes. As such, it has been rectified now.I'm talking off the hook as far as The Ocean is concerned. I know the history and agree about Dazed and Confused. Maybe I misread the opening post.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm talking off the hook as far as The Ocean is concerned. I know the history and agree about Dazed and Confused. Maybe I misread the opening post.. My bad, chase...I thought you were responding to the post immediately above yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woz70 Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Does that also explain the similarities here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44G3Zwm8hgM Pretty much. I don't want to bore people senseless by going into the details of harmony and music theory, but the WLL riff is a textbook case of tension and resolution from a harmonic viewpoint. The three notes that make up the riff (V, bVII, I - 'b' means 'flat') are used, in that order, just about everywhere you look in western music - especially the blues which uses the bVII as one of the 'blue' notes. Also, due to the physical layout of the guitar these notes fall very easily and intuitively under the fingers. Give someone a guitar who has never heard any Hendrix or Zeppelin, teach them the minor pentatonic blues scale and they're gonna hit those notes, in that order, pretty quickly. Additionally, whilst 'Hey Joe' would have undoubtedly been a musical reference for the Zep guys, you also have to look at what they were playing a lot in the period before WLL came about. One of the mainstays of the set was HMMT. Take the final two notes of the HMMT riff, repeat them and then chug for a bit on E, and voila - WLL. The notes are easy - turning something so minimal in to an absolute monster of a riff without thinking 'oh that's way too simple' - that's where the genius lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 My bad, chase...I thought you were responding to the post immediately above yours.No problem. I usually attach the post I'm responding to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pluribus Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Pretty much. I don't want to bore people senseless by going into the details of harmony and music theory, but the WLL riff is a textbook case of tension and resolution from a harmonic viewpoint. The three notes that make up the riff (V, bVII, I - 'b' means 'flat') are used, in that order, just about everywhere you look in western music - especially the blues which uses the bVII as one of the 'blue' notes. Also, due to the physical layout of the guitar these notes fall very easily and intuitively under the fingers. Give someone a guitar who has never heard any Hendrix or Zeppelin, teach them the minor pentatonic blues scale and they're gonna hit those notes, in that order, pretty quickly. If that were the case, then every band from that era would've had that riff on their records too. Also, you're forgetting that the notes are only one half of the equation. The other half is the way in which the notes are being played. The rhythm/syncopation. This is what removes it from being a common musical motif, even if the sequence of notes used are not unique. Considering how much Page lifted from others only makes these things more obvious. Cue Occam's razor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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