albionremain Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I know this is a touchy subject with a lot of Zeppelin fans, but I've got to put it out there: Does Jake Holmes deserve songwriting credit for Dazed and Confused? I've heard Jake's 1967 version, and even though the lyrics are different, the notes and melody sound pretty much the same as Jimmy's Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin versions. Also, it should be noted that Jake Holmes and the Yardbirds both get songwriting credit on the Yardbirds' version. (Jake Holmes opened for the Yardbirds once in New York in 1967, and I guess that's how they first heard the song...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albionremain Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Yes. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc1973 Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Yeah, we had a pretty lengthy and heated discussion about this on the old board. I started this topic by asking "if Jake Holmes were to get credit, how much money would he be entitled to?" The premise being, Dazed&Confused appears on Zeppelin records perhaps more than any other song. You figure it's on: LZI Song Remains the Same (movie) Song Remains the Same (soundtrack) Boxed Set Remasters (2-disc set) BBC Sessions, appears twice HTWWW Complete Studio Recordings DVD, appears 4 times? Early Days Mothership Am I missing any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 It's a touchy subject amongst The Yardbirds themselves, to say nothing of Led Zeppelin's fans! Chris Dreja claims that sometime in August 1967 he attended Jake Holmes opening for Janis Ian and enthusiastically decided The Yardbirds should obtain the rights to record and perform the song. Jim McCarty claims he attended Jake Holmes' set when Holmes (and The Youngbloods) opened two shows for The Yardbirds on Fri, August 25, 1967 at the Village Theater in New York. He said he immediately purchased Holmes album 'The Above Ground Sound of Jake Holmes', which he then played for Jimmy Page. Jimmy Page claims he went on his own to Bleecker Bob's Record Store on Bleecker Street in Greenwich Village the next day (Saturday, August 26 1967) and purchased his own copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 I started this topic by asking "if Jake Holmes were to get credit, how much money would he be entitled to?" Let's just say if we bring Bert Jansch into the equation for 'Black Mountainside' and Randy California for 'Stairway to Heaven' I think Led Zeppelin declares bankruptcy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albionremain Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Let's just say if we bring Bert Jansch into the equation for 'Black Mountainside' and Randy California for 'Stairway to Heaven' I think Led Zeppelin declares bankruptcy. Yeah, from "Taurus" by Spirit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc1973 Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Interview with Holmes..."WS" is the interviewer, Will Shade, and "JH" is Jake Holmes: WS: Do you remember playing at The Village Theatre on August 25, 1967 with The Yardbirds and The Youngbloods? JH: Yes. Yes. And that was the infamous moment of my life when "Dazed And Confused" fell into the loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page. WS: When did you find out that Zeppelin did it? JH: When the album came out! And then, stupidly, I never followed up on it. In the early 1980's, I did write them a letter and I said basically "I understand it's a collaborative effort, but I think you should give me some credit at least and some remunity." But they never contacted me. WS: Well, The Yardbirds just came out with a CD of archival material (ed. note: Cumular Limit) and they included a version of your song that they did on French t.v. in 1968. And it's credited properly! It reads "Jake Holmes; arranged by The Yardbirds." JH: (laughs) God! Really! Get out of town! WS: I just interviewed two of The Yardbirds for another piece and they don't split hairs at all. They say the song is definitely yours. JH: (laughs in disbelief) WS: Do you want to hear one more thing? JH: (laughs) I'm starting to get weird here. But yes! WS: The Yardbirds are back together and they play your song! JH: (laughs hysterically) Well, that's nice to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
albionremain Posted April 4, 2008 Author Share Posted April 4, 2008 Did you guys know Jake Holmes wrote the "Be All That You Can Be" jingle for the U.S. Army Recruiting commercials? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kakdaddy Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 That's funny! I think one of the big things that did piss off Page's former band members in the Yardbirds was not that he didn't credit Holmes on LZ1 but that he didn't credit the rest of them for "D&C"(lol). That's a fair amount of back peddling. Well, I guess it's a case of "my enemies enemy is my friend" when it comes to those "corrected" Yardbirds writing credits. Now if they can only give the proper credits on the song "Drinking Muddy Water". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 Interview with Holmes..."WS" is the interviewer, Will Shade, and "JH" is Jake Holmes: The loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page? I think it's unfair to single Jimmy out seeing as The Yardbirds collectively rearranged it as their song 'I'm Confused' before Jimmy took it's evolution further as 'Dazed And Confused' with Led Zeppelin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattmc1973 Posted April 4, 2008 Share Posted April 4, 2008 The loving arms and hands of Jimmy Page? I think it's unfair to single Jimmy out seeing as The Yardbirds collectively rearranged it as their song 'I'm Confused' before Jimmy took it's evolution further as 'Dazed And Confused' with Led Zeppelin. Perhaps, but it was never officially recorded by The Yardbirds, while Jimmy took it and made it the centerpiece of the biggest band in the world, and it appeared on record/video at least 15 times. That's a double-album worth of songwriting credits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swandown Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 Holmes certainly deserves at least 50% credit. If he had a really good lawyer, he might even be able to wrestle 100% of the writing credit, using the following arguments: 1. the primary riff and the melody are virtually unchanged. 2. the altered middle section (arguably Jimmy's most significant new contribution to the song) does not represent "songwriting" in the legal sense. 3. merely changing the lyrics does not entitle you to songwriting credits (see: "Surfin' USA" or any Weird Al remake) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 the two should have a guitar duel for rights to the song. the music is different. only about 10% of the holmes version is present in the zep version. i think holmes plays chords during the verses and page plays a riff loosely inspired by the chord progression. the holmes version is missing the bbb eg ab eg part. to be fair he deserves 10cents per every 1000$ in record sales with the song on it. he has to pay it back every time someone plays his version though since interest in the zep version is the reason it's being rediscovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargroves Tangie Posted April 5, 2008 Share Posted April 5, 2008 I was listening to Holmes' D&C the other day for the first time in a long time and I agree that he should be given a writing credit. I'm glad that on Cumular Limit they credited him properly, as the Yardbirds used most of the lyrics in their version. I don't think that he is credited on the vinyl version of Live Yardbirds, but that was probably Epic's fault since they put that record out without permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olster Posted April 12, 2008 Share Posted April 12, 2008 Plenty of zep is outside influenced..............but the result is better. Its been zepped!! Heard of a band called featherwheel?? Scary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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