Knebby Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I did.Your an A-hole. That's "you're". See ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 That's "you're". See ya. Bye twat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 ^ nice post, Stryder1978! Thanks for taking the time for responsible dialogue. Lets see how long it lasts.. Mental health care is important, but it's extremely expensive. Most state hospitals have been closed due to lack of funding. Private institutions are $50 to $100,000 per month. Where do these patients go? Home or half way houses where supervision is little to none. And public schools are full of mentally ill children because their parents want their kids 'mainstreamed' and to be with kids their age. About 5 yrs ago, Lincoln-Sudbury High (Boston suburb) had a kid with Aspergers stab to death a fellow classmate in the bathroom. He clearly didnt belong in a public school, but the parents pushed. What is the school supposed to do? And don't even get me going on insurances that literally kick people out of hospitals/clinics and denying coverage for counseling IF you even have insurance. There are many layers to stories like this one, and no clear cut answer it seems. I do know this: we give a 16 yr old a license to drive a car which kills more people every year without question. And here's the punch line...you need only pass one test for your lifetime. Driving a car isn't even protected by the Constitution! I know that's a little off topic, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knebby Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 There are many layers to stories like this one, and no clear cut answer it seems. Completely agree. It would be trite to say hope you are feeling a little better today - but I send good wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 I’ve been listening to all sides of this debate all weekend. Here’s my two cents: BACKGROUND: I grew up in a small rural town in the Midwest (pop. 3800). I shot my first gun with my father when I was ten, my dad bought me my first gun (a single shot 12 gauge) when I was 12. The gun was only used during the hunting season (pheasant, quail, duck, rabbits, squirrels). All guns in the house were in a locked gun rack – and dad had the only key. All guns were unloaded and all ammunition was stored in a separate lock box. I used to bring REAL guns to school when we had a class play that needed a firearm in it – it was no big deal. We knew gun safety and the gun was checked each performance to make sure it was unloaded and the empty gun was NEVER pointed at a person. Kids from the farms drove trucks to school with guns mounted in the back – and parked in the school parking lot. This was in the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s. There are MANY more gun laws now than there were then, but back then we didn’t have mass shootings and there wasn’t this “fear factor”. The front door to our house was always unlocked if someone was home. Garage door was always left open. There were just as many guns, but they were seen as tools not weapons. Something changed and it isn’t the guns – it’s the mindset of our society. Now everyone is throwing out these ridiculous “solutions”: Ban assault rifles: Always a favorite of the gun-ignorant. What IS an assault rifle? Let’s take a look, which of these is an assault rifle that needs to be banned? WRONG – they are the same gun! The Ruger in the top photo IS THE SAME GUN as the one in the bottom photo. Both are semi-automatic .22 caliber guns – same gun, same fire power. The “hunting rifle’ in the above photo was given a different folding stock, a suppressor on the barrel, a metal body, a tripod mount, a scope and a pistol grip. All COSMETIC changes…other than the magazine clip which instead of 10 bullets in the top photo now holds 35. So “banning assault rifles” simply means banning guns that look scarier – it doesn’t change their lethality at all! Almost every household in Switzerland as an AUTOMATIC weapon, yet they don’t have the violence we see. So it isn’t the “assault weapons” causing it! Register all guns: Guns bought from stores and guns how stalls ARE registered. In addition the buyer has a waiting period while a background check is done. LONG GONE are the days when someone could go into a store on a whim and walk out with a gun. And the guns used in the latest school shooting WERE registered and legally bought– how did that law help any? Besides, once that gun is in private hands, it can be sold privately to another individual without a background check or registration in some cases. I have five guns at home (I inherited three when my father passed away) and all were bought before registration was required. I know this is true for MANY guns across the US. And asking everyone to register all their guns now? Well, I would as a law abiding citizen, but the criminal or the nutcase – I’m guessing NOT! So passing this law is fruitless! Ban all guns: A favorite of the ignorant. It will never happen..never…EVER! Even in the countries with the STRICTEST gun control on the planet – there are still firearms there held by private citizens. Even if you could wave a magic wand and make all guns in the US disappear, they’d be creeping in across the border faster than the bales of cocaine and heroin or illegal workers that currently get through – all of which is illegal to bring into this country! Mandatory sentencing for crimes involving a gun: That might make the common thief think twice, but adding a 20 year mandatory sentence to the person who plans to kill 18 babies isn’t going to make them change their mind. My recommendations to help stop the violence: More on the lines of what we did after 9/11 on air travel: 1. Restructure the architecture of soft targets (malls, schools, etc.) Limit entry points. Have security cameras to look not just for shoplifters, but the more suspicious people. In schools have a single entry point, but multiple “Exit Only” doors in case of fire or emergencies. Have those exits alarmed to go off if they are breached. Malls should be redesigned to prevent people going into them unnoticed with large bundles. Construct locking gates and doors that can be remotely activated to isolate the shooter and allow victims to escape. 2. Start a volunteer marshall program for soft targets. We have sky marshalls on our planes - they are trained, armed individuals who can respond if a terrorist gets on board. Do the same for schools and malls. Look for volunteers who WANT to help protect our children. Offer them a strict class with the police department on carrying a firearm. Make them go through a full background check and psychological evaluation. If they pass all three, allow them to carry a firearm and monitor these areas. The criminals wouldn’t know who they are – which makes those soft targets no longer soft! Most of these mass shootings are LONG over before the police arrive – imagine how many lives could be saved if a teacher at that school had been trained and was carrying a firearm at the time of the shooting? Have those volunteers go back each year for re-training on the use of the firearm and re-take the psychological and background checks. This also avoids the “scary” aspect and costs of armed police present in all schools. 3. Limit the clip size: I debated on this one. As a hunter, sometimes you want a clip with more than 6 shots. But 20 or more….unnecessary. Even for home protection, if you need more than 10 shots, you need to practice more target shooting! However, the nut case bent on murder will simply carry multiple 10 round clips rather than one 35 shot magazine. Changing clips takes only a few seconds, so it might not make a big difference. Unless Item 2 above is in place…then a marshall can take them out before they have a chance to re-load! 4. Change the mindset of the phrase “mentally disturbed”: Remember when the term “gay” was kept secret. We are doing the same thing with “mentally unstable”. It needs to be brought out in the open – treated as a sickness. Get these people the mental help they need. Teach people what signs to look for and family members need to get those people help, not ignore or try to hide that person’s affliction. And if you have someone in your home who is mentally unstable, either get rid of your firearms, bows and arrows and other potential weapons or at least keep them locked away and hidden! That is my rant for the day. I hope you can find my reply to your thoughtful post, I thought I would have been the next to post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the chase Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Bye twat! COME ON! Enough already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 COME ON! Enough already. absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Completely agree. It would be trite to say hope you are feeling a little better today - but I send good wishes. Thank you, Knebby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 ^ nice post, Stryder1978! Thanks for taking the time for responsible dialogue. Lets see how long it lasts.. Mental health care is important, but it's extremely expensive. Most state hospitals have been closed due to lack of funding. Private institutions are $50 to $100,000 per month. Where do these patients go? Home or half way houses where supervision is little to none. And public schools are full of mentally ill children because their parents want their kids 'mainstreamed' and to be with kids their age. About 5 yrs ago, Lincoln-Sudbury High (Boston suburb) had a kid with Aspergers stab to death a fellow classmate in the bathroom. He clearly didnt belong in a public school, but the parents pushed. What is the school supposed to do? And don't even get me going on insurances that literally kick people out of hospitals/clinics and denying coverage for counseling IF you even have insurance. There are many layers to stories like this one, and no clear cut answer it seems. I do know this: we give a 16 yr old a license to drive a car which kills more people every year without question. And here's the punch line...you need only pass one test for your lifetime. Driving a car isn't even protected by the Constitution! I know that's a little off topic, sorry. What budget was cut in Ma?Guess?Mental health. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypeO Posted December 17, 2012 Share Posted December 17, 2012 Is that true? No imperial governments seeking to control entire continents? No forced bondage of millions of worker slaves? Equal rights for women? No forced relocations? No internments? None of these things were done by just a handful of mentally ill people. These things were done by GOVERNMENTS including this one. Our founding fathers knew that if they gave more power to a central government that there would always be a trend toward abuse of the people. Just look at what the Imperial European nations were doing around the globe. The 2nd Amendment was necessary then, and it is necessary now. Even if it is only symbolic in some people's minds. What the 2nd Amendment along with the rest of the Bill of Rights insures, is that individuals have rights and powers reserved for them inspite of the natural tendency for government to attempt to legislate or regulate those protections away. I believe that the very FACT that in bothers those in power actually means something. And here is another question I have regarding these so called "assault rifles". Did that type of rifle make this kid crazy? Or was he already crazy? Do you people actually believe that the same result could not have been accomplished by another kind of hunting rifle? The ONLY thing this rifle could do over many other semi-automatic (which is not the same as a machine gun) was accept a larger capacity magazine. But guess what? Almost any semi-automatic rifle could be illegally retrofited with a large capacity magaine. So then how is banning a rifle that just "looks scary" over another one going to change the equation? The reason why many people defend this and other legally manufactured and legally owned rifles is because THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO BAN ALL GUNS. Because any logical consideration should conclude that the shooter could have done this with just about any other type of gun against 6 year olds. The reason the shooter picked this gun was because he was crazy. It fulfilled something in his mind (probably fueled by violent video games) and that is probably why he used it. But he could have killed 20 or even more small children with a .22 caliber target rifle equipped with a high capacity magazine. It is time we dealt with the mentally ill people in our culture. But legislating away more guns is not the answer. This was a horrible event, but it almost reminds me of the way the government used the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor to justify internment of Japanese Americans. One thing is not always caused by another. Giving up rights for protection has NEVER worked before. Excellent. A lot of the non-Americans in this thread are really being offensive without realizing it. Mocking our constitution is a great way to offend us. Because a lot more than 27 people have died defending it. And y'all say you aren't comparing saying the UK is better or the US is worse, but that's pretty much exactly what Ledded has been doing. I said it before, but the gun control argument is very similar to the abortion argument. And just like abortion supporters say men don't get an opinion, so we feel that non-US citizens don't get an opinion. You don't understand how we feel about issues like this. It's why a lot of us are offended when it's suggested we should be more "European" in our perspective. I'm waiting until later because I'm posting from my iPhone and it's brutal. This IPB app for bulletin boards sucks. If anyone knows a better app, I'd love to hear about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 ^ yup. Mental Health has never been high on anyone's list. The cynic in me doesn't buy the rhetoric from any and all administrations. Obama has been abysmal too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 ^ yup. Mental Health has never been high on anyone's list. The cynic in me doesn't buy the rhetoric from any and all administrations. Obama has been abysmal too. You missed it kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knebby Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Excellent. A lot of the non-Americans in this thread are really being offensive without realizing it. Mocking our constitution is a great way to offend us. Because a lot more than 27 people have died defending it. And y'all say you aren't comparing saying the UK is better or the US is worse, but that's pretty much exactly what Ledded has been doing. I said it before, but the gun control argument is very similar to the abortion argument. And just like abortion supporters say men don't get an opinion, so we feel that non-US citizens don't get an opinion. You don't understand how we feel about issues like this. It's why a lot of us are offended when it's suggested we should be more "European" in our perspective. I'm waiting until later because I'm posting from my iPhone and it's brutal. This IPB app for bulletin boards sucks. If anyone knows a better app, I'd love to hear about it. I can't speak for ledded 1, but I do know him and I know that like me he has a deep love and respect for many Americans and much of your way of life. There are many many things about the UK that frustrate me and that I wish I could change. ALL of my comments here have come from a wish that this won't happen again. I've spent a great deal of time in the US, much of it wonderful. It is too hard to say things right now without them being taken wrong - but at the heart of it all you know we all just want answers?? We care?? I really hope you do know that. Best to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 And can I just make an observation? I feel terrible for the residents of Newtown who are forced to put up with the endless stream of traffic and the utter invasion from the press that comes with a 24hr news cycle. Just sayin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 You missed it kid. Sorry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I am interested to hear what people think the intent was behind "the right to bear arms" as our forefathers penned it in the constitution. A handgun in every home in 2012? It isn't as if the British are coming again. Some elements of he constitution are antiquated by virtue of the circumstances of the time in which they were written. There was a time maniacs didn't open fire in restaurants, businesses and schools. Amendments happen for logical reasons. Does anyone think they are trained well enough that they could stop a crazed shooter? More likely they'll be shot or shoot innocents trying to drop the lunatic. Or cops arrive and see him shooting and take him out. I never understood the motivation behind owning a gun "for protection". It is much easier to think clearly, get a home alarm system, give up your wallet and not put yourself willingly in situations where you life is in danger. That isn't being a coward it's thinking and being responsible for your own life and actions. I think the problem is that it's been so ingrained into the fabric of american society that the very thought of a constitutional amendment is considered as harsh a crime as treason ! What burns my ass about the NRA is that to disagree with any part of their position is as good as labelling yourself a socialist or a terrorist sympathizer. It's their way or the highway. As long as that's the mind set, and with a congress that couldn't agree on who's buying lunch, I think only an executive order could get it done. That's going to take one hell of a brave president because I think all hell will break loose if he follows through on it. Scary times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 And can I just make an observation? I feel terrible for the residents of Newtown who are forced to put up with the endless stream of traffic and the utter invasion from the press that comes with a 24hr news cycle. Just sayin. You did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjin-san Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I think the problem is that it's been so ingrained into the fabric of american society that the very thought of a constitutional amendment is considered as harsh a crime as treason ! What burns my ass about the NRA is that to disagree with any part of their position is as good as labelling yourself a socialist or a terrorist sympathizer. It's their way or the highway. As long as that's the mind set, and with a congress that couldn't agree on who's buying lunch, I think only an executive order could get it done. That's going to take one hell of a brave president because I think all hell will break loose if he follows through on it. Scary times How many gun laws are there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 How many gun laws are there? Not sure I get your point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 I think the problem is that it's been so ingrained into the fabric of american society that the very thought of a constitutional amendment is considered as harsh a crime as treason ! What burns my ass about the NRA is that to disagree with any part of their position is as good as labelling yourself a socialist or a terrorist sympathizer. It's their way or the highway. As long as that's the mind set, and with a congress that couldn't agree on who's buying lunch, I think only an executive order could get it done. That's going to take one hell of a brave president because I think all hell will break loose if he follows through on it. Scary times Not only that, ally, but follow the money. Many, many campaigns have been paid for by organizations like the NRA. Not to mention the Mexican drug cartel that funnels guns into this country through a border that is full of holes. Bloomberg said today 'regardless of political ramifications'. Yeah, okay Mr Mayor. . Political ramifications are always a factor, silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Excellent. A lot of the non-Americans in this thread are really being offensive without realizing it. Mocking our constitution is a great way to offend us. Because a lot more than 27 people have died defending it. And y'all say you aren't comparing saying the UK is better or the US is worse, but that's pretty much exactly what Ledded has been doing. I said it before, but the gun control argument is very similar to the abortion argument. And just like abortion supporters say men don't get an opinion, so we feel that non-US citizens don't get an opinion. You don't understand how we feel about issues like this. It's why a lot of us are offended when it's suggested we should be more "European" in our perspective. I'm waiting until later because I'm posting from my iPhone and it's brutal. This IPB app for bulletin boards sucks. If anyone knows a better app, I'd love to hear about it. i certainly never meant to be offensive, my apologies if i came off that way i don't pretend to have the answers - don't think ANYONE from ANY country thinks they do. i ddi not read anything that ledded said that could be taken that way. or knebby either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 You did Haha, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
planted Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 i certainly never meant to be offensive, my apologies if i came off that way i don't pretend to have the answers - don't think ANYONE from ANY country thinks they do. i ddi not read anything that ledded said that could be taken that way. or knebby either. If I may... There were a couple here who I felt were making comparisons to the UK and Japan. I expressed my concern/dislike and had the opportunity to clear this up, which I was grateful for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ally Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 Not only that, ally, but follow the money. Many, many campaigns have been paid for by organizations like the NRA. Not to mention the Mexican drug cartel that funnels guns into this country through a border that is full of holes. Bloomberg said today 'regardless of political ramifications'. Yeah, okay Mr Mayor. . Political ramifications are always a factor, silly. Yep, it's a big buisness alright. Ya know, I hate sounding so negative about the subject because the reality for me is that I don't have a problem with responsible people owning a gun. I just don't see how an assault weapon can be considered a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted December 18, 2012 Share Posted December 18, 2012 If I may... There were a couple here who I felt were making comparisons to the UK and Japan. I expressed my concern/dislike and had the opportunity to clear this up, which I was grateful for. thanks planted, glad you and i are ok Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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