Eric Clapton at the 02?

[danelectro]

If he claimed James as the writer and not Johnson, whoever owns the "copywright" for the Johnson song would have no grounds for suit, since the James song is older. And so where Clapton assigns credit is important here. Not to assign it to James perpetuates a theft.

Common now you know this isn't true, musicians can't take it upon themselves to change who owns what and age has nothing to do with it. If musicians had the ability to change who owns the rights to songs the entire music industry would be a mess.

[danelectro]

And furthermore . . .

Read the whole thread. What thread could justify saying that Jimmy didn't excel in coming up with original ideas? That's laughable. Countless rock bands have based whole careers off of Jimmy's original ideas. YOU should know THAT or what the hell are you doing on this board at all? Saying the band has a black mark against them. Talk to real musicians and you won't hear that shit. No, you only find that kind of stuff, how did you put it? on fan forums. Tons of this shit on Yardbirds forums.

Feel free to post what you think is an original idea of Jimmy's. I'll wager every one can be traced to an older source. It doesn't mean he sucks nor does it diminish what he did, a lot of music had been played before Jimmy started Led Zep. When I said that I wasn't insulting him just pointing out that he was late getting started. In many ways he was smart to take it all in, he was able to capitalize on it

[DBJ]

They ended up paying Willie $$$ and THEN adding him, after a suit was filed

That was Whole Lotta Love.

Willie Dixon was always credited on I Can't Quit You Babe. This is why Led Zeppelin wrote Since I've Been Loving You, to replace the cover song with a Zeppelin original.

[MS1]

I don't really think EC is a blues purist, I've never heard him specifically make that claim. To say he was angry with Zep may be a stretch but it wouldn't surprise me if he was disappointed with Jimmy for allowing credit not to be given when it was due. The worse part about Zep claiming those songs as their own was there really wasn't a reason to do it and it's not like those tunes were some long lost secret, damn near every band in the UK from Mayall to Savoy Brown had covered the same material just months before the first Zep albums were released. Unfortunately it happened and it will forever be a blemish on their record. I'm sure in hindsight they wish they wouldn't have let it play out that way and I've seen a few interviews where Jimmy has tried to place the blame on RP's lyrics but he is just as guilty as anybody. It really did put them under the microscope and had people trying to find miniscule similarities to other songs in their truly original work. All of a sudden Jimmy couldn't play G C and D without someone saying he stole everything in the key of G, the witch hunt became rediculous but it was of their own doing.

I don't know about that, it's been said the Jeff Beck Group was the blueprint for Zep, specifically Truth. If Jimmy didn't have guys like EC and JB to build from Zep as we know may not have been the same. Let's face it having original ideas is not Jimmy's strength, building on what came before and melding it into a hotrod musical stew is his thing. He's the one who should have an album titled Mighty Rearranger.

Right. That was you that said the things in bold? That's what I take issue with. And even if Clapton isn't your favorite, you'll certainly stand up for him. I'm not going after Clapton because he's your favorite anyway- he's just often held up for contrast when it comes to this sort of thing. I can talk just as much about Dylan. If you want to talk about Davey Graham or Bert Jansch, well I can tell you where they got them from. And as far as Truth goes, the Beck's Bolero band had already happened before Truth. The blueprint had been already been drawn, and Page was there and kind of in charge, as I recall.

And furthermore, I shan't apologize for thinking Led Zeppelin the best at everything. Someone has to be, and who are your better candidates?

I will read the thread, but I don't need to read the thread to object to what's in bold. Whatever the context, those are highly objectionable statements.

[MS1]

Feel free to post what you think is an original idea of Jimmy's. I'll wager every one can be traced to an older source. It doesn't mean he sucks nor does it diminish what he did, a lot of music had been played before Jimmy started Led Zep. When I said that I wasn't insulting him just pointing out that he was late getting started. In many ways he was smart to take it all in, he was able to capitalize on it

An original idea? I'm inclined to think that Rage Against The Machine is an original idea of Jimmys called the Immigrant Song, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers are an original idea of Jimmys called Trampled Underfoot. And Metallica are an original idea called Achilles Last Stand. The laughable thing is that Tom Morello, John Fruiscante and James Hetfield wouldn't deny this, but you would.

So far as being traced to an older source goes, what music can't be? There is no such thing as a virgin birth in music.

[danelectro]

Right. That was you that said the things in bold? That's what I take issue with. And even if Clapton isn't your favorite, you'll certainly stand up for him. I'm not going after Clapton because he's your favorite anyway- he's just often held up for contrast when it comes to this sort of thing. I can talk just as much about Dylan. If you want to talk about Davey Graham or Bert Jansch, well I can tell you where they got them from. And as far as Truth goes, the Beck's Bolero band had already happened before Truth. The blueprint had been already been drawn, and Page was there and kind of in charge, as I recall.

And furthermore, I shan't apologize for thinking Led Zeppelin the best at everything. Someone has to be, and who are your better candidates?

I will read the thread, but I don't need to read the thread to object to what's in bold. Whatever the context, those are highly objectionable statements.

Take "issue with it" all you want, it is a blemish on their record. Not because I said it but because it really happened, I didn't make it up and it continues to haunt them to this day. Even Jimmy admits this. Again I don't need to think Jimmy "invented anything" to enjoy his music. That goes for all the music I listen to, how original it is means little to me. I wasn't the one to bring originality into this thread either. The posts of mine you are chosing to pick apart are respones to other posts not me bringing it into this thread, I know that's difficult for you to grasp but since this is like the 4th time I've said it maybe you can get your head around it.

[danelectro]

And furthermore, I shan't apologize for thinking Led Zeppelin the best at everything. Someone has to be, and who are your better candidates?

I don't have a "best", music isn't a competition. For me it isn't as simple as piling it up into neat little piles with the biggest pile being the winner. That kind of shit is best left to preteens who want to argue about whether or not Green Day is really punk or some other inane crap. In the end it just doesn't matter.

[MS1]

Common now you know this isn't true, musicians can't take it upon themselves to change who owns what and age has nothing to do with it. If musicians had the ability to change who owns the rights to songs the entire music industry would be a mess.

What the hell are you talking about? I feel like I'm making your argument for you when I point out that Willie Dixon "changed" who owned Whole Lotta Love when the band settled his suit with them. James' estate could sue both Eric Clapton AND the estate of Robert Johnson in quite the same way should they choose- his song has more in common with Johnsons (and therefore Claptons) than Zeps WLL does with Dixons You Need Love.

Are you suggesting that Eric couldn't give James a credit on that song if he chose? Who would stop him, and on what grounds?

[danelectro]

Anyway, nice chatting but it's late and I need to get some sleep. See you around.

[MS1]

Take "issue with it" all you want, it is a blemish on their record. Not because I said it but because it really happened, I didn't make it up and it continues to haunt them to this day. Even Jimmy admits this.

Ridiculous. It is a blemish to you. To you and a handful of disgruntled haters. Real musicians like McCartney and Jagger don't seem to mind, no, they're backstage at the o2.

And Jimmy ADMITS to being haunted by his theft? I think you'd better back that up with a source.

Again I don't need to think Jimmy "invented anything" to enjoy his music. That goes for all the music I listen to, how original it is means little to me. I wasn't the one to bring originality into this thread either. The posts of mine you are chosing to pick apart are respones to other posts not me bringing it into this thread, I know that's difficult for you to grasp but since this is like the 4th time I've said it maybe you can get your head around it.

Now you're the one not reading and having a difficult time grasping things what part of highly objectionable ^{no matter what the context} don't you understand?

If the rest of the thread has BS like this in it, don't worry, I'll get to it eventually.

[danelectro]

What the hell are you talking about? I feel like I'm making your argument for you when I point out that Willie Dixon "changed" who owned Whole Lotta Love when the band settled his suit with them. James' estate could sue both Eric Clapton AND the estate of Robert Johnson in quite the same way should they choose- his song has more in common with Johnsons (and therefore Claptons) than Zeps WLL does with Dixons You Need Love.

Are you suggesting that Eric couldn't give James a credit on that song if he chose? Who would stop him, and on what grounds?

I have no idea who owns that specific song but copyright and ownership can expire. If Skip James didn't have his affairs in order he may not have retained ownership to his songs, or that song, it happens. It matters not who wrote it just who owns it.

In fact there was a stink about Willie Dixon putting his name on older songs that the rights had expired to. Which is one of the reasons I think he's a hypocrite.

I doubt you remember my posts from the old board but I made many comments on the WLL conspiracy several years ago. I never felt that song owed enough to Dixon's to be in violation, especially the music. But the law is most protective of lyrics.

I really am going to bed now.

[MS1]

If you are talking about the Immediate session where Jimmy's playing was nothing more than a redux of EC's licks and riffs verbatim then yeah you are right. They say imitation is flattery but not many people have had good things to say about Jimmy "phoning in" a few EC flavored solos for those sessions. Believe what you want but the timeline doesn't lie, EC was out of the gate long before JP started forging his legacy. First doesn't mean better by any means but it shouldn't be a secret EC played a huge part in what Jimmy went on to take further and a few stolen licks from one session don't add up to what EC did on Beano.

You know, I read the whole friggin' thread. And what I found was someone who mentioned Willie Dixon, you telling Steve A Jones "hey it wasn't me", and another objectionable post from you. Claiming that Jimmy's session career doesn't come up to Beano betrays a lack of knowledge of Jimmy's early career. Beano came out in 1966. In 1966, sessions released that Jimmy had played on included Them's "Baby Please Don't Go" and "Here Comes The Night", the Who's "Bald Headed Woman", "Beck's Bolero", The Yardbirds "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" "Psycho Daisies" and "Stroll On", to name only a few. I think those stack up against Beano anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

And so, EC was NOT out of the gate before Jimmy. In fact, Jimmy was well known in London when Clapton was unheard of- Jimmy played with the Cyril Davies blues jams that the Stones and the Yardbirds came to watch in the early, early days. The Stones and the Beatles knew Jimmy before they knew Clapton.

[Mangani]

They were also hit on Bring It On Home, another Willy Dixon song performed by Sonny Boy Williamson.

Clic on the ''Preview all'' tab

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000V670F...=dm_mu_dp_trk18

Yes I've known that. However, I've always seen the Bring It On Home beginning as a send up. The first section is a homage/wink to the old blues standards......then the song kicks in and Zep create a new riff, structure and indeed song. It's as if Zep were saying "ok, this is how the old blues guys did the blues it.......and now this is how WE do it!".

I see the begining as a joke lead up to the real song. When I think of BIOH I think of the drums and the riff, not the harmonica start.

Yes, they probably should have credited Dixon for the first part of the song but to listen to some people you would think the whole song is a direct copy. It isn't.

Anyway, the point was that Zep DID credit You Shook Me and I Can't Quit You to Dixon on the first album.

Ironically, Dixon has now become quite well known off the back of Led Zeppelin.

[Mangani]

What complete and utter bullshit! And your previous post about original ideas not being Jimmy's strength. Ridiculous! He has more original ideas as a producer alone than most musicians do in their entire careers. And as a composer- my god, even if you buy into the rip off conspiracy, there are classic songs on every record that are undeniably from nowhere but Jimmy's head. But once again someone has bought into the ripoff conspiracy as though every artist doesn't do it, and as usual it's a Clapton fan. Well, take a look at this study that I've made. This will quote a series of posts I made at the old board, BTW.

Clapton "disappointed with Jimmy for allowing credit not to be given when it was due"? Clapton was guilty of the same thing then, and he's guilty of the same thing recently. And here's the proof:

I'm sure that all of you have heard of Robert Johnson, and at least some of you will have heard of Skip James. Let's make a comparison of James' song 22-20 Blues, and Johnson's song 32-20 Blues

22-20 Blues by Skip James

_{Oh, Mr. Crest, Mr. Crest}

_{How in the world you}

_{Expect for me to rest?}

_{Oh, Mr. Crest, Mr. Crest}

_{How in the world you}

_{Expect for me to rest?}

_{You got my 22-20}

_{Layin' up across my breast}

_{Oh, if I send for my baby}

_{An she act a fool}

_{An she don't never come}

_{If I send for my baby}

_{She act a fool}

_{An she don't never come}

_{All the doctors in New York City}

_{I declare, they can't help her none}

_{You know, sometimes she gets unruly}

_{An she act like she just don't wanna do}

_{Sometimes she gets unruly}

_{An she act like she just don't wanna -}

_{But I'll get my 22-20}

_{I'll cut that woman half in two}

_{Oh, your.38 Special}

_{Buddy, it's most too light}

_{Your .38 Special}

_{Buddy, it's most too light}

_{But my 22-20}

_{Will make ev'rything, alright}

_{Ah-or, your .44-40}

_{Buddy, it'll do very well}

_{Your .44-40}

_{Buddy, it'll do very well}

_{But my .22-20}

_{I declare you, it's a-burnin' hell}

32-20 Blues by Robert Johnson

_{If I send for my baby}

_{and she don't come}

_{If I send for my baby}

_{man, and she don't come}

_{All the doctors in Hot Springs}

_{sure can't help her none}

_{And if she gets unruly}

_{thinks she don't wan do}

_{If she gets unruly}

_{thinks she don't wan do}

_{Take my 32-20 now and}

_{cut her half in two}

_{She got a 38 special but I believe its much too light}

_{She got a 38 special but I believe its much too light}

_{I got a 32-20, got to make the camps alright}

_{If I send for my baby}

_{and she don't come}

_{If I send for my baby}

_{man, and she don't come}

_{All the doctors in Hot Springs}

_{sure can't help her none}

_{I'm gonna shoot my pistol, gonna shoot my Gatlin gun}

_{I'm gonna shoot my pistol, gotta shoot my Gatlin gun}

_{You made me love you}

_{now your man has come}

_Ah-oh

_{baby where you stay last night}

_Ah-ah

_{baby where you stayed last night}

_{You got your hair all tangled}

_{and you ain't talkin right}

_{Got a 38 special boys, it do very well}

Clearly, this is the same song. Skip James recorded his version in 1930, Johnson recorded his in 1936. And yet, if you look at the credits on Robert Johnson's platinum selling boxed set, you will not find Skip James' name. Furthermore, if you look at the credits on Eric Clapton's Me and Mr. Johnson at his version of 32-20 Blues, you will not find Skip James' name.

So often when this issue gets brought up, Zep are vilified as "thieves of black music". As I've pointed out previously, people are trying to make a moral issue of what is a legal issue. If this is really about is making sure blues artists get their just due, then Clapton is just as guilty as Zep, if not more so! That song is Skip James' work, and even though Johnson did the initial "theft", Clapton is profiting from that song and not paying the James family one penny.

You might say,"Well, maybe Eric doesn't know." Bullshit. He's a blues scholar and owns every Skip James album there is, he knows. I'm not saying he set out to do this intentionally, he and Zeppelin have lawyers whose job it is to find out who owns the copywrite to a cover song and who needs to be paid to make it happen. Clapton probably never gave it any thought. But the way this USUALLY gets presented is Clapton the blues purist who would never steal from his idols VS. Jimmy Page the great thief of black music. And it's bullshit.

These guys were never thinking about the ramifications of the credits, they made music and it was their management's job to sort it out, and Clapton's and Zeppelin's management handled it and are handling it differently. Not that Clapton was innocent back then either- The whole intro for "Strange Brew" is an Albert King song, note for note. No credit to Albert.

So your idea of Clapton as being any better or more pure than Led Zeppelin is complete bullshit. I can offer you more examples if you want. I'm also happy to discuss Jake Holmes, Willie Dixon, whatever you want.

Bring. It. On.

Good on you Magic Sam. Excellent post.

Shame you never phoned up that tool on the Howard Stern show. Suddenly, it seems it was only ever Zeppelin that begged, borrowed and stole.

[danelectro]

You know, I read the whole friggin' thread. And what I found was someone who mentioned Willie Dixon, you telling Steve A Jones "hey it wasn't me", and another objectionable post from you. Claiming that Jimmy's session career doesn't come up to Beano betrays a lack of knowledge of Jimmy's early career. Beano came out in 1966. In 1966, sessions released that Jimmy had played on included Them's "Baby Please Don't Go" and "Here Comes The Night", the Who's "Bald Headed Woman", "Beck's Bolero", The Yardbirds "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" "Psycho Daisies" and "Stroll On", to name only a few. I think those stack up against Beano anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

And so, EC was NOT out of the gate before Jimmy. In fact, Jimmy was well known in London when Clapton was unheard of- Jimmy played with the Cyril Davies blues jams that the Stones and the Yardbirds came to watch in the early, early days. The Stones and the Beatles knew Jimmy before they knew Clapton.

Once again you have twisted what I posted to suit yourself. I never said Beano came before everything Jimmy only that it was the blueprint for how blues based guitar rock is played. Again this is not something I made up and nobody but you is going to argue that Jimmy's session work had the same impact because it didn't. Beano rasied the bar it was the benchmark, sure Jimmy was playing at the same time and no doubt he had a good reputation but his time came later. You can't rewrite history just because you are a fan.

What can I say. I can't argue with a guy who's willing to admit he doesn't read through a thread before posting and is willing to take things out of context. All you have done is take things out of context in an attempt to turn things into a contest. I've done nothing but try to diffuse the EC vs. JP BS and you want to perpetuate it. I've already said before being first doesn't matter but you want to dwell on it. Fine keep dwelling, I still say it doesn't matter and music isn't a contest. If you need to Jimmy to be the best and first at everything to enjoy Led Zep so be it.

[Iriquidian]

You know, I read the whole friggin' thread. And what I found was someone who mentioned Willie Dixon, you telling Steve A Jones "hey it wasn't me", and another objectionable post from you. Claiming that Jimmy's session career doesn't come up to Beano betrays a lack of knowledge of Jimmy's early career. Beano came out in 1966. In 1966, sessions released that Jimmy had played on included Them's "Baby Please Don't Go" and "Here Comes The Night", the Who's "Bald Headed Woman", "Beck's Bolero", The Yardbirds "Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" "Psycho Daisies" and "Stroll On", to name only a few. I think those stack up against Beano anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

And so, EC was NOT out of the gate before Jimmy. In fact, Jimmy was well known in London when Clapton was unheard of- Jimmy played with the Cyril Davies blues jams that the Stones and the Yardbirds came to watch in the early, early days. The Stones and the Beatles knew Jimmy before they knew Clapton.

I think we all agree about the reputation of John Paul Jones....according to an interview with Pete Townsend, he said that JPJ was the 'best' bass player in England....

so when John Paul Jones says he saw Jimmy Page in concert in 1962 playing the blues, and that he heard of Jimmy Page before Clapton or Beck, we should let him settle this part of the debate.

Jimmy Page was out of the gate while Clapton was still at home learning blues licks from records.

thank you John Paul Jones for settling this earlier part of the thread regarding people saying that Jimmy came after Clapton, that's just bull, infact Jimmy had a #1 hit song on the charts in England in 1962, the same time the Beatles started getting airplay.

Clapton came much much later in 1965, so when he was going over to Jimmy's house, it was Jimmy Page that was a pop star at that point.

[Voodoo]

Ew, gross!

Jimmy and Eric were friends back in the yardBirds age, I'm surprised he wasn't there.

[Iriquidian]

Jimmy and Eric were friends back in the yardBirds age, I'm surprised he wasn't there.

thank you!!!!! that was the whole point why I asked the simple question...was Eric there?

I mean Jimmy is an old guy now, and he rarely plays in public, and since Jeff was there, I just figured for the love of music and its impact on England, that he might go.

since I'm new to the forum, I find it interesting how my question evolved into a Jimmy/Eric

War Of The Worlds

but Jimmy was playing Bo diddley out in the clubs before Clapton was....

for the record, Clapton was in a band before the Yardbirds called the Roosters,

but I assure you they weren't gigging in 1962, nor did they have a #1 record that year.

1962 is funny, cause Page was #1 on the charts, and that same year the Beatles and the Stones hit fame as well.

Jimmy was there from the beginning of the British invasion, make no mistakes about it.

[danelectro]

since I'm new to the forum, I find it interesting how my question evolved into a Jimmy/Eric

War Of The Worldsbut Jimmy was playing Bo diddley out in the clubs before Clapton was....

for the record, Clapton was in a band before the Yardbirds called the Roosters,

but I assure you they weren't gigging in 1962, nor did they have a #1 record that year.

1962 is funny, cause Page was #1 on the charts, and that same year the Beatles and the Stones hit fame as well.

Jimmy was there from the beginning of the British invasion, make no mistakes about it.

Which you continue to perpetuate with more inane competition.

[Iriquidian]

Which you continue to perpetuate with more inane competition.

I think it was the others who posted here turned it into that....

but this is a zeppelin site, and Jimmy has always shown concern about what he was doing 'first'

he mentions doing studio tricks, and the fuzz box, (that roger mayer developed for him)

and all the other stuff he has brought up over the years,

so in my eyes, I'm only trying to set the record straight.

there is no animosity towards Eric because he has always attempted to play with alot of emotion, and as anyone who suffered the onslaught of 'technical' players in the 80's, playing with emotion is always better,,,,

[MS1]

Once again you have twisted what I posted to suit yourself. I never said Beano came before everything Jimmy only that it was the blueprint for how blues based guitar rock is played.

Believe what you want but the timeline doesn't lie, EC was out of the gate long before JP started forging his legacy. First doesn't mean better by any means but it shouldn't be a secret EC played a huge part in what Jimmy went on to take further and a few stolen licks from one session don't add up to what EC did on Beano.

Quotes don't lie, you should at least edit them before you start trash talking. As for EC "playing a part in what Jimmy took further, maybe by discovering the Marshall/Les Paul combonation, but that's it. If you listen to Jimmy's solo on "Leave My Kitten Alone", it makes it clear that in terms of technique, he was light years ahead of Clapton's work of that same period.

Again this is not something I made up and nobody but you is going to argue that Jimmy's session work had the same impact because it didn't. Beano rasied the bar it was the benchmark, sure Jimmy was playing at the same time and no doubt he had a good reputation but his time came later. You can't rewrite history just because you are a fan.

And you can't rewrite history because you aren't a fan! Those sessions had a HUGE impact, and only a dope would claim they didn't! Them, the Who, the Kinks, the Yardbirds . . .I bet more Americans knew ONE of those records than know Beano. Tell me, did Beano go gold in the first five years of it's release? In the first ten? What book are you getting your "history" from that is so sacrosanct? I've done a lot of research on this, you know- I came to play. Call me a fanboy if you want, but back up your assertations with citations if you want to call them fact. If not, go play with the soccer moms at the EC forum. They're more your speed anyway.

What can I say. I can't argue with a guy who's willing to admit he doesn't read through a thread before posting and is willing to take things out of context.

Physician heal thyself! I told you I've read the whole thread now TWICE. Now it's your turn to pony up. Show me one other post from this thread that criticizes Jimmy or Led Zeppelin. Put up or shut up. You're the only one saying they have a blemish on your record and that Jimmy's talent wasn't in original ideas. Explain to us all the context you think justifies those statements.

All you have done is take things out of context in an attempt to turn things into a contest. I've done nothing but try to diffuse the EC vs. JP BS and you want to perpetuate it. I've already said before being first doesn't matter but you want to dwell on it. Fine keep dwelling, I still say it doesn't matter and music isn't a contest. If you need to Jimmy to be the best and first at everything to enjoy Led Zep so be it.

You've tried to diffuse it? LOL- who has more posts in this thread dissing JP than you? Who has more posts in this thread defending EC than you? Crying revisionist history without facts to back it up- yeah, that would be you.

[Daniel]

so you're saying jeff has 8 records since 1975?

jimmy has physical (2 records) Presence

In Through the Outdoor CODA

death wish 2 The Firm The Firm (mean business) Outrider (was suppose to be a double lp but tapes got stolen?) Coverdale/Page Walking into Clarksdale

my math kinda sucks, but I think that equals 10 records, 11 if you count both physical

not to mention all the remasters of his lifes work both recorded and live

Let's not forget Jimmy's "Lucifer Rising" in '87 I think.

[reezon]

Let's not forget Jimmy's "Lucifer Rising" in '87 I think.

Uh, that would be 1972

[Daniel]

Uh, that would be 1972

Uhm no, there was a bootleg in 1972 from when JP was fired from making the Soundtrack to the movie of the same name. In 1987 it was officially released...

[kirchzep27]

Clapton not being at the -led zep show is a non issue in my opinion.