Oakland 1977: First Show vs. Secound Show

[Laurence Santos]

Between the two final 1977 gigs (7/23 and 7/24) wich is the best one. I prefer the secound show quite a bit, what about you?

[joeboy]

The band was petrified and playing in a manic state at the second show. Jimmy I'm sure was being harassed and confronted by the police. Continual calls from the lawyer Steve Weiss about WTF just happened backstage. Ambulance attendants all over the place patching up the wounded and carrying them off to hospital. Booze and drugs giving out free for the asking just to calm everyone down. Peter Grant chewing everyone out and trying not to have the damn whole lot of them arrested and deported. Yes the second show was played the same as the album Presence was recorded.....in a state of panic.

[chef free]

I like the first show better. I went to the second show and the band was hours late and the crowd was getting drunker and drunker: things started to get ugly. We had no idea about the fight the day before but Page and Jones looked mad and bored. Robert was in good form that day for sure and the acoustic set was nice.

[SteveAJones]

The band was petrified and playing in a manic state at the second show. Jimmy I'm sure was being harassed and confronted by the police. Continual calls from the lawyer Steve Weiss about WTF just happened backstage. Ambulance attendants all over the place patching up the wounded and carrying them off to hospital. Booze and drugs giving out free for the asking just to calm everyone down. Peter Grant chewing everyone out and trying not to have the damn whole lot of them arrested and deported. Yes the second show was played the same as the album Presence was recorded.....in a state of panic.

Tensions were running high between Graham's camp and Grant's camp for the second show but the only band member facing any possible charges was Bonham (along with Cole and Grant). Weiss was informed what had happened and, if you believe Graham, coerced him (Graham) into signing some legal documents. Graham claims he was told if he refused to sign they would have no choice but to consider canceling the second show. There wasn't any panic as such on either side. In fact, Graham claims after they left town he was plotting to have some guys sent to even the score but his legal counsel talked him out of it.

[joeboy]

If John Bonham was arrested and deported the tour would be cancelled. In Jimmy's fragile state he must have been at his wits end not knowing what to do with the police breathing down his neck. Peter Grant must have been very emotional and scared begging Jimmy what to do. JPJ must have rolled his eyes and saying to himself "I must get away from these people".

[Sathington Willoughby]

If John Bonham was arrested and deported the tour would be cancelled. In Jimmy's fragile state he must have been at his wits end not knowing what to do with the police breathing down his neck. Peter Grant must have been very emotional and scared begging Jimmy what to do. JPJ must have rolled his eyes and saying to himself "I must get away from these people".

[badgeholder]

I was listening to the 2nd show the other night, really good sound, it might be a merge I have but, I was pleasantly surprised just how good this one sounds. But, yeah, I'm sure the first show is better, given the circumstances

[Nutrocker]

Don't laugh...that basically was Jonesy's reaction. As soon as the second Oakland show was over, Jones loaded up his family into a Winnebago and went sightseeing; that's why he wasn't around when Robert got the bad news when he arrived in New Orleans.

I was listening to the 2nd show the other night, really good sound, it might be a merge I have but, I was pleasantly surprised just how good this one sounds. But, yeah, I'm sure the first show is better, given the circumstances

Except that for the first show Zeppelin had barely gotten out of bed before hitting the stage, and it shows. Tons of mistakes in that performance, the fuck up before the solo in "Ten Years Gone" being the most obvious one.

Under the circumstances, the second Oakland show ended up being much better than it should have been...except it does get kind of annoying hearing Robert Plant trying to suck up to Bill Graham every other sentence in his Plantations...

[SteveAJones]

If John Bonham was arrested and deported the tour would be cancelled. In Jimmy's fragile state he must have been at his wits end not knowing what to do with the police breathing down his neck. Peter Grant must have been very emotional and scared begging Jimmy what to do. JPJ must have rolled his eyes and saying to himself "I must get away from these people".

Bonham was not at risk for deportation over this incident. This idea that the band and their management were quaking with fear is simply untrue.

[IpMan]

2nd show was better, much better by a long shot. I surmise one of the reasons being with the police breathing down their necks Jimmy was not able to "imbibe" as he normally did. I figure Jimmy played this show pretty sober which resulted in a pretty good performance.

[SteveAJones]

2nd show was better, much better by a long shot. I surmise one of the reasons being with the police breathing down their necks Jimmy was not able to "imbibe" as he normally did. I figure Jimmy played this show pretty sober which resulted in a pretty good performance.

Please stop perpetuating this false narrative of the police breathing down their necks. Graham's employees purposefully withheld filing their complaints with the Oakland Police Department until AFTER the second show was performed. Arrests were made at the San Francisco Hilton on Monday morning. The four (Bonham (single count of battery), Grant (single count of battery), Cole (two counts of battery) & Bindon (two counts of battery) were detained in the Oakland City Jail for three hours before being released on $250.00 bail for each count. On February 16, 1978 the case was heard in court (none were present). Each received suspended sentences and fines. BFD.

[IpMan]

Please stop perpetuating this false narrative of the police breathing down their necks. Graham's employees purposefully withheld filing their complaints with the Oakland Police Department until AFTER the second show was performed. Arrests were made at the San Francisco Hilton on Monday morning. The four (Bonham (single count of battery), Grant (single count of battery), Cole (two counts of battery) & Bindon (two counts of battery) were detained in the Oakland City Jail for three hours before being released on $250.00 bail for each count. On February 16, 1978 the case was heard in court (none were present). Each received suspended sentences and fines. BFD.

Ok, so incredibly sorry Steve, let me put it this way:

Due to the fact that a drugged out Grant agreed to allow a drugged out Cole, to hire an Essex Boy (Bindon) for security which resulted in an assault which included the participation of a drugged out Bonham, one can easily surmise the day after this infamous incident (the second show) that several members of the band were rather paranoid regarding possible legal repercussions. Calling the police and filing formal complaints aside, the members of Zeppelin were well aware of what the US government tried to do to John Lennon over the possession of half an ounce of weed, and what the Canadian government did to Keith Richards. I would further assume both Jimmy & Bonzo were beyond a paranoid state from that point on and thus got rid of any "party favors" and sobered up just in case the fuzz did show up.

So, just because the police were not literally breathing down their necks does not negate the fact that they probably felt the hammer was gonna come down any minute. The most likely probability is they were all scared shitless. Hell, Bonham was scared to the point that over three years later he still did not want to return to the states for the North American Tour in the fall of 80' because of the Oakland incident. I would say that alone speaks volumes.

[SteveAJones]

Ok, so incredibly sorry Steve, let me put it this way:

Due to the fact that a drugged out Grant agreed to allow a drugged out Cole, to hire an Essex Boy (Bindon) for security which resulted in an assault which included the participation of a drugged out Bonham, one can easily surmise the day after this infamous incident (the second show) that several members of the band were rather paranoid regarding possible legal repercussions. Calling the police and filing formal complaints aside, the members of Zeppelin were well aware of what the US government tried to do to John Lennon over the possession of half an ounce of weed, and what the Canadian government did to Keith Richards. I would further assume both Jimmy & Bonzo were beyond a paranoid state from that point on and thus got rid of any "party favors" and sobered up just in case the fuzz did show up.

So, just because the police were not literally breathing down their necks does not negate the fact that they probably felt the hammer was gonna come down any minute. The most likely probability is they were all scared shitless. Hell, Bonham was scared to the point that over three years later he still did not want to return to the states for the North American Tour in the fall of 80' because of the Oakland incident. I would say that alone speaks volumes.

Sorry, but drawing any comparisons between John Lennon's deportation battle and this backstage skirmish is just fucking ludicrous.

I could offer a hundred reasons why but I'm not going to waste my time. Suffice to say one hopes you realize it had everything to do with politics and little to do with possession. Keith Richards was arrested in Toronto in Feb '77 for heroin and cocaine possession; if they were so concerned about that the '77 tour wouldn't have proceeded in drug-addled fashion, to include a $25,000 cash advance the night prior to the first Oakland show for a heroin purchase (if we take Bill Graham's word for it).

Three hours detainment and a $250 fine for each count of battery. Yeah, the long arm of the law really came down with a hammer on them, didn't it? Grant, Cole, Bonham & Bindon, a hard-boiled English criminal, must have been absolutely petrified. Look, they all knew that Weiss (their attorney) would take care of it and he did--case was settled in Feb '78 with suspended sentences and fines.

Unsure where you've gotten this notion that John Bonham was afraid to return to the United States in 1980. Show me one quote and I'll entertain the thought but as it stands that is equally ridiculous.

The guys went on 90 minutes late, but the weather was favorable and the crowd was on their side. All in all, they played a good show, by most accounts better than they had done on Saturday. Personally, I'd let it go at that instead of offering conjecture as to why. However, feel free to do so. I'll continue to take the word of those who were there.

[ListenToThis]

In regard to the original purpose of the thread I find the second show to be a better performance, tighter and with purpose. The playing is better from Jimmy and Bonham continued to play in his usual 1977 manic aggressive and boisterous manner.

As far as backstage events, while Robert does suck up at times to Graham, he also dedicates NQ to him, and for those who know the meaning of the term "no quarter" I wouldn't call this dedication a suck-up...

It was Grant's idea to bring along Bindon, not Cole's. It was a bad idea as Bindon was a heavy and ill-suited to provide the structure and sound decision making that Grant and Cole were no longer able to provide. Plant was particularly adverse to Bindon's presence.

After the events of the 24th Robert fled to New Orleans with Bonham, Jones went to Oregon and Jimmy stayed put in San Francisco for almost two weeks as he had a large amount of recently purchased expensive "goods" to go through. This is one of the main contributors as to why he did not leave the country to return to England to attend Karac's funeral. This greatly led to the permanent damage in the relationship of Page and Plant and Plant's loss of his figurative "big brother".

Concerning Bonham's take on returning to the U.S. after the '80 European tour, the only record I have found is Dave Lewis' mention that Bonham was nervous about going back to the States, "as the Oakland incident still hung heavy on his mind". Now Dave is not one to make things up and he had very close access to Bonham for a period in 1980, both during the tour and upon several phone conversations with Bonham in August of '80. It is quite probable that Bonham expressed his thoughts about touring the U.S. to Lewis, as Bonham and the band at large (Robert somewhat patronizingly) liked Dave and confided thoughts that they were unlikely to share with anyone else not in the group's inner circle.

Too many people speculate on the Oakland incident - this is in part due to the band members and Grant's understandable reluctance to discuss the subject. The likely true culprit was an intense state of paranoia that Grant, Cole and Page allowed to penetrate into their everyday outlook, combined with Bonham's impulsively poor decisions - all factors which were further fueled by uncontrolled drug habits.

Others were harmed at the hands of certain group members and their entourage in years prior - Oakland wasn't the first time. However by 1977 the group was absolutely massive. The ability for defendants to recover damages and discredit the members, perhaps to right prior wrongs as a result of either perceived or real slights, was overwhelming compelling. This is why Oakland received so much press and is well known to this day.

Romanticizing the incident does no good - we can only take what the band members have said about the event and recognize that the train was quickly running off the tracks. It would likely have gotten worse before it was to get better.

[IpMan]

Sorry, but drawing any comparisons between John Lennon's deportation battle and this backstage skirmish is just fucking ludicrous.

I could offer a hundred reasons why but I'm not going to waste my time. Suffice to say one hopes you realize it had everything to do with politics and little to do with possession. Keith Richards was arrested in Toronto in Feb '77 for heroin and cocaine possession; if they were so concerned about that the '77 tour wouldn't have proceeded in drug-addled fashion, to include a $25,000 cash advance the night prior to the first Oakland show for a heroin purchase (if we take Bill Graham's word for it).

Three hours detainment and a $250 fine for each count of battery. Yeah, the long arm of the law really came down with a hammer on them, didn't it? Grant, Cole, Bonham & Bindon, a hard-boiled English criminal, must have been absolutely petrified. Look, they all knew that Weiss (their attorney) would take care of it and he did--case was settled in Feb '78 with suspended sentences and fines.

Unsure where you've gotten this notion that John Bonham was afraid to return to the United States in 1980. Show me one quote and I'll entertain the thought but as it stands that is equally ridiculous.

The guys went on 90 minutes late, but the weather was favorable and the crowd was on their side. All in all, they played a good show, by most accounts better than they had done on Saturday. Personally, I'd let it go at that instead of offering conjecture as to why. However, feel free to do so. I'll continue to take the word of those who were there.

I was not drawing apples to apples comparisons, more like linking the fuel of paranoia and possible consequences. Of course Lennon was political, but think of it in this light, drugged out musicians and crew beat man senseless, a man employed by one of America's most powerful and connected impresarios and you can understand my point.

Years ago in my youth I was busted for a "youthful indiscretion" which could have resulted in up to two years in jail for me. I had a very connected friend who hooked me up with a former Cook County prosecutor who was now a defense attorney. Both my friend and the lawyer laughed at my fear, told me no worries they had it covered. I knew this lawyers reputation and connections but I was still seriously scared shitless and positive I was going down. Of course the day of the trial came, the judge called the court to order, my lawyer bursts into the courtroom like Johnny fucking Chocrane, walked up to the judges bench and says, "Hi Chuck, you coming to dinner tonight? The wife has quite the spread prepared." That was it, the judge then looked at the cop, berated him for "harassing" me, dismissed all charges and then told the cop if he ever busts me again it will be his badge. Shit, I knew Chicago was corrupt but I really felt bad for the cop, he was only doing his job.

So, even though their lawyers probably said, "we got this, no worries" they were indeed fucking worried.

[SteveAJones]

After the events of the 24th Robert fled to New Orleans with Bonham, Jones went to Oregon and Jimmy stayed put in San Francisco for almost two weeks as he had a large amount of recently purchased expensive "goods" to go through. This is one of the main contributors as to why he did not leave the country to return to England to attend Karac's funeral. This greatly led to the permanent damage in the relationship of Page and Plant and Plant's loss of his figurative "big brother".

Concerning Bonham's take on returning to the U.S. after the '80 European tour, the only record I have found is Dave Lewis' mention that Bonham was nervous about going back to the States, "as the Oakland incident still hung heavy on his mind". Now Dave is not one to make things up and he had very close access to Bonham for a period in 1980, both during the tour and upon several phone conversations with Bonham in August of '80. It is quite probable that Bonham expressed his thoughts about touring the U.S. to Lewis, as Bonham and the band at large (Robert somewhat patronizingly) liked Dave and confided thoughts that they were unlikely to share with anyone else not in the group's inner circle.

Too many people speculate on the Oakland incident - this is in part due to the band members and Grant's understandable reluctance to discuss the subject. The likely true culprit was an intense state of paranoia that Grant, Cole and Page allowed to penetrate into their everyday outlook, combined with Bonham's impulsively poor decisions - all factors which were further fueled by uncontrolled drug habits.

I wouldn't say Bonham and Plant necessarily "fled" to New Orleans, after all it was the next stop on the tour.

I too have voiced the hypothesis that Page remained in California for up to two weeks, thereby missing the funeral, however as far as I know to say he remained in California, the Bay Area in particular, after that Monday is still conjecture. I won't even get into his absence at the funeral, suffice to say he wasn't there. I think to say anything beyond that is conjecture.

I can ask Dave for clarification about the Oakland incident still weighing heavy on Bonham's mind. Naturally, I can see where he would have had regrets about it, but I don't sense fearfulness as the case had long since been resolved. Robert and Jimmy each performed in San Francisco in association with Bill Graham in 1983.

The details of the Oakland incident are spelled out in Bill Graham's exceptional autobiography, My Life In Rock, and Peter Grant is on record as having said it's an accurate account.

[SteveAJones]

I was not drawing apples to apples comparisons, more like linking the fuel of paranoia and possible consequences. Of course Lennon was political, but think of it in this light, drugged out musicians and crew beat man senseless, a man employed by one of America's most powerful and connected impresarios and you can understand my point.

Once again, I remind you that the only band member implicated in the battery was John Bonham.

[schmoe]

Even though I can put up with a "sloppy" performance if they were enthusiastic and aggressive, the first show is so sloppy that it borders on sounding like a mess. The second show suffers a bit from Robert sounding a bit off and Kashmir sounding awful due to the sound system, but Page was on good form for most of the show, including No Quarter and Achilles Last Stand and I rank it is a far better show than the previous day.

The second show is also the only one I have heard where both Page and Jones play mandolins during Going to California; a bit odd that their last performance of it featured a unique presentation.

[IpMan]

Once again, I remind you that the only band member implicated in the battery was John Bonham.

Sorry about that, I erroniously placed a "s" after musician, I only meant John Bonham and road crew.

[IpMan]

I wouldn't say Bonham and Plant necessarily "fled" to New Orleans, after all it was the next stop on the tour.

I too have voiced the hypothesis that Page remained in California for up to two weeks, thereby missing the funeral, however as far as I know to say he remained in California, the Bay Area in particular, after that Monday is still conjecture. I won't even get into his absence at the funeral, suffice to say he wasn't there. I think to say anything beyond that is conjecture.

I can ask Dave for clarification about the Oakland incident still weighing heavy on Bonham's mind. Naturally, I can see where he would have had regrets about it, but I don't sense fearfulness as the case had long since been resolved. Robert and Jimmy each performed in San Francisco in association with Bill Graham in 1983.

The details of the Oakland incident are spelled out in Bill Graham's exceptional autobiography, My Life In Rock, and Peter Grant is on record as having said it's an accurate account.

I am probably wrong here so I will admit this up front, I am just thinking outside the box as they say. Knowing Graham's temperament through several interviews and his own book, I would have to say Graham was looking for some kind of pay beck, retribution if you will for Zeppelin once again getting away with it. As shitty as this is gonna sound, I think of the possibility Graham may have believed Zeppelin paid this debt through the death of John Bonham. Not saying I believe Graham celebrated Bonham's passing, more like he believed the chickens had come home to roost & Zeppelin had reaped what they had sown. This may be why Graham worked with both Page & Plant during their solo careers, he may have felt no animosity since the scales had been balanced.

Just a thought.

[chef free]

I am probably wrong here so I will admit this up front, I am just thinking outside the box as they say. Knowing Graham's temperament through several interviews and his own book, I would have to say Graham was looking for some kind of pay beck, retribution if you will for Zeppelin once again getting away with it. As shitty as this is gonna sound, I think of the possibility Graham may have believed Zeppelin paid this debt through the death of John Bonham. Not saying I believe Graham celebrated Bonham's passing, more like he believed the chickens had come home to roost & Zeppelin had reaped what they had sown. This may be why Graham worked with both Page & Plant during their solo careers, he may have felt no animosity since the scales had been balanced.

Just a thought.

More than the death of Robert's only son?

[IpMan]

More than the death of Robert's only son?

Oh crap, I forgot about that. Yes, I agree.

Graham was a complex man who had a very tragic early life (his mother was killed in Auschwitz) and he escaped Nazi Germany only to be placed in a NY orphanage where he was then ridiculed for being a Nazi because of his accent. That's pretty fucked up. Graham by all accounts was very protective of his people and artists and had a very deep sense of justice and fair play.

[SteveAJones]

This may be why Graham worked with both Page & Plant during their solo careers, he may have felt no animosity since the scales had been balanced.

Just a thought.

Possibly, but I prefer to believe it was simply because Graham was a smart businessman who recognized that the times (and management) had changed for both artists. However, we will never know for certain if he or Peter would have been receptive to BGP booking Led Zeppelin for a Bay Area show in 1980.

[pluribus]

Both Oakland gigs were just bad. Sorry, but they weren't anywhere near the level of LA or New York. Rusty and uninspired by comparison.

As for the impact of the Graham/Grant thing...if the band were really that fragile to let something as common as grown men beating each other up affect their performance, then they must have been scared witless all those times in 72-73 when Jimmy had a 13 year old locked up in his hotel room while the band were on tour. Maybe we should go back and listen to figure out which US 73 performance sounds most like Jimmy is afraid of being locked up for pedophilia?

The fantasy stuff gets out of hand. The Oakland performances were bad for a lot of obvious reasons, just like Seattle and Tempe were. I would bet you a million dollars that had the Graham fight never happened that Oakland 77 would've sounded exactly the same. As it is, it was 1 day in a 10 year career. A blip that half of the group either didn't know about or bothered to care about. Stage > Limo > Airplane > New City.

Besides, didn't the band buy thousands of dollars worth of drugs while they were in San Francisco? If that was true, there's your answer right there. Jimmy was probably too smacked out of his mind to even notice what city they were in. And didn't they also screw Graham over at Kezar 73? And yet he agreed to work with them again in 1977. Chances are he would've worked with them again in 1980 too. That's show business for you.

For 1977 it's LA and New York all the way.

[SteveAJones]

didn't they also screw Graham over at Kezar 73? And yet he agreed to work with them again in 1977. Chances are he would've worked with them again in 1980 too. That's show business for you.

Well, kind of...in '73 they couldn't make their showtime so Graham had to placate the crowd by fabricating an explanation that Jimmy was making sure that the double-neck was tuned just right. They were to play two shows in Oakland in '75 but those were cancelled on account of Robert's accident. I agree that Graham would not have necessarily ruled out working with them in '80.