Well I don't know the entire GUITAR history of Free, but when Paul Kossof(f) was at the helm and playing solos, IMO he was in much better shape than Page in the Firm, and Iv'e heard great live stuff. Page was still rebuilding his chops and he needs a strong rhythm section. Chris Slade was really good but Tony Franklin didn't always anchor the boat. If you go back and listen to some live Page Yardbirds stuff, you will hear some of the same problem. A certain amount of Page's riffs and rhythm guitar need strong foundations, not Tony Franklin veering into Zappa Territory. And as great as Page is, I'm not sure he is consistently an equal rhythm player to Hendrix, Townsend, Richards, or even EVH. Before you attack me, listen to some live Roth-era VH. Just like Page and Hendrix, Halen is often making up parts as he goes along. When I saw the Firm live, Page just stuck to the studio parts, with weakly improvised solos.

Yeah I always thought Tony Franklin was unique and very talented but certain songs IMO he kind of wrecked with the fret less weirdness, Although some funk stuff was really cool. Obviously everyone knows that at least on the first album, Rodgers !?!? came up with a good amount of guitar parts. That explains some of the generic rhythm parts. However live, not unfortunately when I saw them, but certain other shows I have, Page really played some amazing B-Bender stuff. As others have said, this project sounded great on paper. And Rodgers, for all his "stodginess", and simple lyrics, always sang well.IMO you had to wait till Outrider before Page was blazing again. Remember that Page had likely stopped practicing in any professional way since the mid-70's. Composing songs, sure, but regular sustained practice ?? Maybe before the FIRM tour, but years of decline.

This must be recalled,(pretty sure it was mentioned much earlier), but Paul Rodgers has been labeled by many as hard to deal with, compromise, even a bit of a bully. Despite Page's leadership in Zep, no one in the band EVER labeled him even near a dictator. There are certain interviews where Page pretty clearly states that he wanted to take Paul's voice and push it into unusual areas. Then he kind of said that he tried as far as he could but the project just ran it's course. I think the big problem was that Jimmy is not a natural leader and ended up giving in or letting Paul run things too much. In Zep the others despite their egos recognized Jimmy's vision and genius and let him use his excellent judgement. It's great that some fans still enjoy the Firm's music but after Jimmy didn't have any fond memories.s

Remember that Collins played at least part of Robert's first solo tour(saw it)and he played great. Forget the Live Aid travesty, he can actually play somewhat like Bonzo and played great fusion with a band called Brand X. I like some of his solo stuff but he isn't essential listening obviously.

Boy, rather excellent descriptions, without losing the laypeople(I am a musician). Same problem with putting Hendrix or Page in a convenient sized box, a describable shape can't contain all the influences and forces at work.

Well obviously you being a ace drummer I must have mixed something up, but what about the "blowback" from more heavily tuned drums ?? From a physics standpoint your wrists, hands, etc.(snares, toms, etc.)would have to absorb more energy not from the "hit", but from the "blowback". But I'm certainly Not a drummer.

Yes, must point out the rather excellent attempts to mimic Bonzo. Being a musician myself, If I remember correctly my drummer said tuning the drums higher is sort of like tuning a guitar higher or using heavier strings. Your arms, wrists, fingers, etc. are going to have to make more effort, that is why other drummers may not tune higher ??? True, or not ??. Actually he sort of compared it to the "blowback" from a powerful rifle.

Great post, and all the attempts to somehow encapsulate Bonzo's drumming skill. I would place him in a running tie with Hendrix as the greatest rock'n'roll musician ever. Fact is that other than sometimes letting his enthusiasm speed things up, whatever style or genre he would or could try would be ultimately successful. Forget Ginger Baker.....a great drummer, but if Bonzo wanted to go that route, eventually he could do it. Lack of Bonzo was a tremendous problem for Jimmy when Zep ended. Nice try from everyone, but getting Hendix properly would be 300+ pages(as Bonzo) and truth be told there are many things which can only be learned from playing live.

I have this record and it is absolutely worth listening thru all of it. IMO all three are playing real well, this album is much better than the usual "before they were famous" crap.

Yeah I saw this band a few times in the late 80's and at the NJ convention. I thought in particular the guitarist was an apt choice as he got pretty close to Jimmy's 75' live sound, and he had a touch of sloppiness but never sabotaging the music. One funny thing I remember is was his stage presence was Jimmy times 4, so he was a whirling dervish on stage. He was either in great shape or must have drank a few pots of coffee before going on. But pushing everything to the breaking point is the Zep way, so the band certainly succeeded.

I have to point out that particularly after the "regular" first solo in WLL in TSRTS, Page heads into a lot of uncharted territory after Plant's my "baby's reached the age of 24", etc.,. In fact in this section Page is absolutely using the delay, but only for slap back short echo. Also these are not just blues licks, but rockabilly licks from Cliff Gallup, Gene Vincent, Scotty More (Elvis guitarist), and others. That final strange run, Page is kind of descending three frets on each lick, you have to think out of the box. As far as the D&C solos after the bow solo, at least on TSRTS, much of the time when you hear all the dissonance, Page is often crashing the E and Bb notes together in different ways, although this is a oversimplification. Some of the other stuff , although it sounds unique( the fast , almost mandolin picking style) , the stuff that really is very chaotic, if you check out some "better" versions of D&C, Page makes this stuff sound much more connected to the rest of the band, as opposed to playing AGAINST the band.

Well Dunnery was certainly better than most of the post-2000 clowns, but although the comment has perhaps some truth, not sure players who have only accomplished 1/100 of what Page has want to weather the blowback which will come by even constructive criticism if they have few glories if ANY on their own.

Actually depending on the show Blackmore can ham it up, but he was always a moody f..k, one of his problems as with Beck. Beck has a great ear, and very possibly sharper than Jimmy's. But it's true, great ear or not, he stays away and doesn't take chances with unplanned and free-form sections like Zep and the other bands mentioned. To be fair, even early on some of the truly free form Zep jams did actually fall into chaos or not "work". Yet I and many others including the last few posters much prefer real music being made on the spot, not albums being pointlessly recreated note for note on stage. Criticizers of Page's "inability" to recreate studio versions ?? Well go back and listen to the Black Crowes collaborations, Page is controlled and subdued IMO, as he is thinking studio. I in fact don't listen much to those shows for that reason. Certainly there is good playing and some jams there, but I guess some morons actually thought Page couldn't just play on point, instead of trying to make every song and solo an epic drama or tragedy, which I much prefer.

Right, Blunt wasn't insulting Page really, there's more than a grain of truth to it. One thing I feel I must point out is that although Jimmy is my absolute fave, and he could match Hendrix IMO, Hendrix was always playing . Not quite sure if Hendrix ever declined so drastically as Page did 77'-80'. And Hendrix was beating the hell out of his tremolo bar constantly, it's miraculous he was anywhere near being in tune , so that killed some songs outright. But Page even from 77'-80' had such a distinctive style that 50% of the mistakes are more interesting than 95% of all others "competent" playing. One fantastic improvisor who has fallen out of radar is Ritchie Blackmore---even if you don't like DP, check out live stuff with him on YouTube. He never plays below above-average, can play bluesy, classical licks, combine the two, play 50's rockabilly licks like Page, etc. Great technique but never slick. Page hits greater heights, much greater, but consistency is shaky. And he is the sorcerer, bar none.

Yeah, two great things said. EVH was/is a damn good songwriter, but your'e talking mainly high school keg party /livin' it up classics. Page's music certainly can do that but basically can go as deep, wide, shallow, or high as anything Iv'e ever heard. Actually EVH is not the main problem, it was so many hair metal guitarists and shredders who made their remarks , not even realizing for example that there are actually some live shows where Page is actually playing quite precisely with Almost Shredder speed. And Plant, maybe he was tired of Blunt, who knows, but I find it incredibly revealing that he has never collaborated with anyone else(well Page))near his equal. Ship Of Fools indeed.

Well, Kelly Girl you are very perceptive and make some rather subtle points. EVH is famous for pointing out that Page had trouble at times executing his genius ideas, but the best live stuff, not sure I agree. Also when Plant went to go see Jimmy in the Firm, he didn't like the songs, but thought Page's soloing was brilliant. And about that 85' interview, Plant was slowly but steadily on his way to becoming a control freak. Few know that Plant forced Robbie Blunt to learn how to play a guitar synthesizer, at that time still considered a glitch-ridden unreliable nightmare even ultimately discarded by Page himself. But as some have pointed out, the route from a genius musical idea to a studio or stage has to unfortunately pass thru more or less conflicted or tortured human souls.

I certainly see how Robert ended up looking a bit silly going from the Greek God to the pied piper, or whatever title is apropos. However extreme his musical experiments I far prefer the 80's stuff all the way to FON than the post-1999 material. Iv'e said this often but many of the later projects do not sound anything like real band collaborations, the main suspect being IMO a rather strange combination of some complex but many other overly simplistic parts, as if Plant is dictating the instrument parts. Well, Plant post-2000 still has dedicated fans, so all power to him and that subset.

I believe in fact that Jimmy is actually very possibly ashamed by some of his dismal playing and even behavior during the worst times of the addictions. IMO in interviews he always wants to swat it out of the way quickly, with the "When I needed to be focused, I was" nonsense. I'm no psychologist but although Jimmy may be verbally denying the drug/booze disasters, I'm not convinced internally that he is not starting to feel very uncomfortable and wants to switch gears right away. Unfortunately I agree with many of you that Jimmy is very insecure and being straight may actually delay/prevent ?? a comeback. Well, many artists have the same problem, but Jimmy's case is pretty aggravated.

I am speechless. Someone else who just doesn't "get" the Firm. Believe me I tried. But "Fire" to my ears was very unique and also didn't sound like any other Zep. This shows as well that there still was some real spark left. Actually I thought as well that ITTOD was creative song-writing wise , but the performances and the production were way too slick. But as everyone knows, Page was no longer conducting the orchestra.

I have to say I saw Robert sometime in mid September 83'. Yes Collins on drums, at MSG. Of course no Zep, but the show I saw was amazing. First of all despite all Plant's blather about leaving Zep behind, plenty of songs had Plant ad-libbing Zep style, and doing some of those legendary sustained howls. Second, Robbie Blunt was excellent, a unique sound and able to be subtle or forceful as the song required. And live some of the studio songs which were a bit "weak" worked fine live. I think Plant must have lost his mind to lose Blunt, IMHO.

Led sox, very cool and tastefully done. Perhaps this is blasphemy but the opening figure actually reminds me of what the Edge would later do with U2 with all the delay pedal stuff. I like the Edge a lot but like Page said about Townsend, and applies to the Edge as well, "He certainly has his limitations".

Absolutely, that was in the RS special issue about the whole shebang. And agreed that the "tension" was something more in the writer's mind. Still, looking back, I find it amazing that enormous suspicion was never cast upon Page considering his considerable weight loss, loss of musical skill and even almost mythical retreat and disappearance from the world at large. Of course there was no net and after Zep it really was "What the hell is Jimmy up to"???

Well arguably Zep's music has had the most emotional impact out of all the musicians on the ARMS stage. Also Jimmy had literally vanished for years into being a legendary rock recluse. I saw two of the shows and actually Page was the most well GREETED, but Beck put on such a stunning performance that to my perception after each song there were almost standing ovations. After Stairway there was bedlam, but even my friend said Beck won the crowd. Clapton played very well, but the fire of Beck and the Page nostalgia set him aside.

The thing with the relationships seems a bit foggy, but would Jimmy greet any of the musos likely warmly if he ran into them on the street ?? I think so. Perhaps not in a crowd, as Jimmy remains shy. I'm sure he's been both invited AND left out because of his at times unknown musical readiness. And, like others, IMO Clapton may respect Zep's success but not appreciate their versatility, mistaking it for dilletantism, or something. But in my view Clapton's Blues stranglehold has cost him dearly. Whatever.

In the early possibly to the late 60's Page and Clapton were actually very good friends, they used to go out to eat and actually discuss art matters other than just music. In fact Jimmy, Eric, and Jeff had recorded a bunch of stuff at Jimmy's house, and Jimmy somehow being obligated to Immediate Records had to turn the stuff over. Of course without any OK from Jimmy an album called Guitar Boogie ??? something was released, and apparently Eric may have thought Jimmy orchestrated it. That could have created a tension, obviously. With the Crossroads thing and so on I think Eric is more wary that Jimmy is not reliably in good playing shape, otherwise Eric is really not known for grudges. Same goes for other jams and situations; is Jimmy up to it, even a simple blues ???