how many more times solo

[ledwelo]

as im sure most of you know, jimmy page and jeff beck are incredibly close friends, and i know that he played rhythm guitar on becks bolero. listening to the solo you can see that jimmy completely ripped jeff beck of that song. my question is since page never gives ode to his old friend, do you think that page had asked jeff on the side, or did he just straight up rip him off. as we all know how many more times is a bunch of blues songs meshed into one and zeppelinized but still, for him to of ripped of beck is just not right.

[Yupter]

Beck's Bolero? You mean the same Beck's Bolero mostly composed by Jimmy Page Beck's Bolero?

But seriously, as far as I know the Jimmy guitar parts were composed by Jimmy whereas the Jeff parts were composed by Jeff.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Yupter

[BonzoLikeDrumer]

as im sure most of you know, jimmy page and jeff beck are incredibly close friends, and i know that he played rhythm guitar on becks bolero. listening to the solo you can see that jimmy completely ripped jeff beck of that song. my question is since page never gives ode to his old friend, do you think that page had asked jeff on the side, or did he just straight up rip him off. as we all know how many more times is a bunch of blues songs meshed into one and zeppelinized but still, for him to of ripped of beck is just not right.

Well yeah, but who did Beck rip it off from? Its the Blues man, that's what Blues men do, they, "give a nod" to who ever they liked before them.

[SteveAJones]

as im sure most of you know, jimmy page and jeff beck are incredibly close friends, and i know that he played rhythm guitar on becks bolero. listening to the solo you can see that jimmy completely ripped jeff beck of that song. my question is since page never gives ode to his old friend, do you think that page had asked jeff on the side, or did he just straight up rip him off. as we all know how many more times is a bunch of blues songs meshed into one and zeppelinized but still, for him to of ripped of beck is just not right.

You do realize it was Jimmy Page, not Jeff Beck, who wrote 'Beck's Bolero' (and later incorporated elements of it in Led Zeppelin's 'How Many More Times') and that much of this was "borrowed" from Howlin' Wolf's 'How Many More Years' ?

Jeff was surprised and dismayed when he learned 'How Many More Times' was on Led Zeppelin's debut album because

it was superior to the version of 'How Many More Times' on his own 'Beck-ola' album.

[huw]

Jeff was surprised and dismayed when he learned 'How Many More Times' was on Led Zeppelin's debut album because

it was superior to the version of 'How Many More Times' on his own 'Beck-ola' album.

?You sure about that one, Steve?

IIRC How many more times isn't on Beck-ola. I'm not sure if Beck actually recorded it at all?

Now when he (Beck) heard Zep's version of "You Shook Me" he got upset, because his own version was on his LP "Truth". Are you thinking of that story?

[glicine]

Jeff has never recorded "How many more times", and as far as "Beck's Bolero" concerned, this is what Jimmy said,

DS: What about "Beck's Bolero"?

JP: Wrote it, played on it, produced it... and I don't give a damn what he

says. That's the truth.

But I can imagine Jeff was upset because of both You Shook Me and Bolero.

And IMO it's a real stretch to say those two are "incredibly close friends".

Edited January 26, 2010 by glicine

[Bong-Man]

Dear readers....Please be patient as we have temporary lost the cut & paste portion of today's program. We will resume normal pasting as soon as we are able. As always, we appreciate your patronage.

Edited January 26, 2010 by Bong-Man

[ledwelo]

so it appears that their is a point of contension because beck said jimmy was strumming a rhythm bolero and he started soloing over, while jimmy says he wrote it,produced it, and was the master mind behind the whole thing

so who to believe???

much of this was "borrowed" from Howlin' Wolf's 'How Many More Years' ?

-uh yeah but i wasnt alking about the song itself just the solo which page and bek recoreded but i cant figure out who is the one who actually wrote that lead.

And IMO it's a real stretch to say those two are "incredibly close friends".\

-not so much of a stretch really considering that beck attended O2 and was inducted into the hall of fame BY jimmy and they both played the song im talking about

[glicine]

so it appears that their is a point of contension because beck said jimmy was strumming a rhythm bolero and he started soloing over, while jimmy says he wrote it,produced it, and was the master mind behind the whole thing

so who to believe???

much of this was "borrowed" from Howlin' Wolf's 'How Many More Years' ?

-uh yeah but i wasnt alking about the song itself just the solo which page and bek recoreded but i cant figure out who is the one who actually wrote that lead.

And IMO it's a real stretch to say those two are "incredibly close friends".\

-not so much of a stretch really considering that beck attended O2 and was inducted into the hall of fame BY jimmy and they both played the song im talking about

Who to believe? You choose.

It seems we have different definitions about "incredibly close friends".

Edited January 27, 2010 by glicine

[Aquamarine]

I attended the O2 and I've air-guitared to Beck's Bolero, I wonder if that makes me a fairly close friend?

[joiletjake]

much of this was "borrowed" from Howlin' Wolf's 'How Many More Years' ?

-uh yeah but i wasnt alking about the song itself just the solo which page and bek recoreded but i cant figure out who is the one who actually wrote that lead.

Most parts of the song was actually copied and revamped from the live versions of Smokestack Lightning that Page did with The Yardbirds in 1968, even the solo. The drumming pattern that McCarty (and of course Dreja on bass) played during the guitar solo is very similar to the Bolero riff... But who knows what Page was inspired by at the time when Zeppelin recorded HMMT. That Plant used How Many More Years as the base for the lyrics isn't relevant in this case imo.

So the most logical answer would be that the guitar solo is an upgraded version of the Smokestack solo that Clapton did in 1964 and which Beck then later taught Page. You'll probably never know the exact answer concerning where the Bolero part originates from, if there even is one. But my guess would be that he simply listened to/remembered the arrangement that was used in The Yardbirds and copied it for HMMT rather than thinking "let's rip off Beck's Bolero, it would fit nicely behind the guitar solo".

[ledwelo]

thanks joiletjake

and mabey you did go to O2 and airguitar to bcks bolero Aquamarine, but i know for a fact you ddnt induct jeff beck into the rock and roll hall of fame!

[eternal light]

I think that Jimmy Page inducted Jeff Beck into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

[eternal light]

so it appears that their is a point of contension because beck said jimmy was strumming a rhythm bolero and he started soloing over, while jimmy says he wrote it,produced it, and was the master mind behind the whole thing

so who to believe???

much of this was "borrowed" from Howlin' Wolf's 'How Many More Years' ?

-uh yeah but i wasnt alking about the song itself just the solo which page and bek recoreded but i cant figure out who is the one who actually wrote that lead.

And IMO it's a real stretch to say those two are "incredibly close friends".\

-not so much of a stretch really considering that beck attended O2 and was inducted into the hall of fame BY jimmy and they both played the song im talking about

There is a long story about that somewhere in one of the threads hosted by Steve Jones. I vaguely recall there was a time when Peter Grant managed both.

But as the story is told, Jimmy Page wrote and produced Beck's Bolero when Beck and Page worked together in the Yardbirds.

How Many More Times is very different from Beck's Bolero. Once in a while Jimmy Page will play an excerpt from Beck's Bolero live and incorporate it into whatever else he is playing though.

When Peter Grant produced Truth by Jeff Beck, he had sent a white copy to Jimmy Page, which included Jeff Beck's You Shook Me, but Jimmy Page did not listen to it before he released Led Zeppelin's You Shook Me.

Also, in 1966 there was a jam session that included Beck and Page on guitars and included

, (a track produced by Mickie Most in an earlier version recorded on the B-side of Hi Ho Silver Lining during the time when Beck and Page were in the Yardbirds), Nicky Hopkins on piano, John Paul Jones on bass and Keith Moon on drums. This version of Beck's Bolero was included on the album Truth, which also featured Rod Stewart and Ron Wood. Truth was released around August, 1968 as the solo debut for Jeff Beck.

I recall in those days before the Yardbirds evolved into Led Zeppelin, they would sometimes stage events affectionately known as battle of the bands. I'm not sure if these involved either Jeff Beck or Jimmy Page though. :-)

Source: Peter Grant: The Man Who Led Zeppelin by Chris Welch

and of course, wiki :-)

"Beck's Bolero" was recorded at IBC Studios on 16 May 1966.John Entwistle was scheduled to play bass but couldn't attend, so John Paul Jones was called in as a last minute replacement.Beck, Page, Hopkins, Jones and Moon planned to record a whole album, but contractual obligations prevented them from recording together again, and this was the only song from that session that was released, as a b-side. Moon couldn't leave The Who and he arrived at the studio during the sessions in disguise so no one would know he was playing with another band.Jeff Beck later claimed that Pete Townshend "glared like daggers at me" after he found out about the recording sessions.

Page is officially credited for the arrangement, although there is disagreement over creative input. Beck explained on how the tune was written:

“Well, with some difficulty and largely without me! ..... I went over to Jim's house and he had this 12-string Fender and he loved the idea of using a bolero-type rhythm for a rock record. He was playing the bolero rhythm and I played the melody on top of it, but then I said, "Jim, you've got to break away from the bolero beat - you can't go on like that for ever!". So we stopped it dead in the middle of the song - like the Yardbirds would do on 'For Your Love' - then we stuck that riff into the middle.”In a interview for Guitar Player magazine, Beck elaborated:

“Me and Jim Page arranged a session with Keith Moon in secret, just to see what would happen. But we had to have something to play in the studio because Keith only had a limited time -- he could only give us like three hours before his roadies would start looking for him. So I went over to Jim's house a few days before the session, and he was strumming away on this 12-string Fender electric that had a really big sound. It was the sound of that Fender 12-string that really inspired the melody. And I don't care what he says, I invented that melody, such as it is. I know I'm going to get screamed at because in some articles he says he invented it, he wrote it. I say I invented it. This is what it was: He hit these Amaj7 chords and the Fm7 chords, and I just started playing over the top of it. We agreed that we would go in and get Moonie to play a bolero rhythm with it. That's where it came from, and in three or four takes it was down. John Paul Jones on the bass. In fact, that group could have been a new Led Zeppelin.”This has remained a point of contention between the two. In an interview he gave in 1977, Page contradicted Beck's version:

“You see on the “Beck’s Bolero” ... thing I was working with that, the track was done and then the producer just disappeared. He was never seen again; he simply didn’t come back. [simon] Napier-Bell just sort of left me and Jeff to it. Jeff was playing, and I was in the box (recording booth). And even though it says he wrote it, I wrote it. I’m playing the electric 12-string on it. Beck’s doing the slide bits, and I’m basically playing around the chords. The idea was built around Maurice Ravel’s’ “Bolero.” It’s got a lot of drama to it; it came off right. It was a good lineup too, with Keith Moon and everything.”In a separate interview, also given in 1977, Page expressed his recollections more bluntly:

“ wrote it, played on it, produced it... and I don't give a damn what [beck] says. That's the truth. ”Whatever disagreements they had in the past, they still appear to have remained as friends. Both Page and Beck have appeared together in magazine articles and photo shoots. Beck attended the Ahmet Ertegun Tribute Concert at the O2 Arena London on 10 December 2007. On 4 April 2009, Page formally inducted Beck into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Page and Beck were previously present and inducted as members of The Yardbirds in 1992. "Beck's Bolero" was performed by both Beck and Page together at the induction ceremony, with Page playing the original Fender XII guitar from the 1966 session.

So this is one of those "arguments" that never ends and one of their favorite pastimes then. It's somewhat traditional for the various members of the Yardbirds to disagree over who did what. :-)

Edited January 30, 2010 by eternal light