The Black Sabbath Thread

[danelectro]

Great as they undoubtedly were, the Sabs were a fairly bovine band, in all respects, compared to Zep. Very unsophisticated, and not very classy. Kind of like the Pistols compared to The Clash.

Rubbish. Rock and roll is unsophisticated by default, it's simple structure has always been the antithesis to grander forms of music. Zep is no exception to this with their more often than not blues based arrangements and heavy handed approach. To speak of them like their Bach or something is absurd.

[Electrophile]

Led Zeppelin were sophisticated? Oh yeah, lyrics like "I'm gonna give you every inch of my love/I wanna be your backdoor man" and "squeeze my lemon til the juice runs down my leg" are very posh and tony.

Led Zeppelin had some really great songs, but some of the lyrics beat you over the head with the often heavy-handedness of the entendre. Bless their hearts, but it gets a little grating.

[silvermedalist]

Rubbish. Rock and roll is unsophisticated by default, it's simple structure has always been the antithesis to grander forms of music. Zep is no exception to this with their more often than not blues based arrangements and heavy handed approach. To speak of them like their Bach or something is absurd.

The lyrics are one thing. The music was very very sophisticated and very complicated and far far more difficult to play than what came from Black Sabbath. You are the one that is full of rubbish,.

[danelectro]

The lyrics are one thing. The music was very very sophisticated and very complicated and far far more difficult to play than what came from Black Sabbath. You are the one that is full of rubbish,.

Oh go away. Don't come here and try to school me about music. I can play Zep and Sabbath songs in my sleep, been playing guitar since the mid 70's, and you're some dope that thinks bending guitar strings is a bad thing. Yeah I've seen the depth of your musical knowledge in Musician's Corner, it isn't much.

[silvermedalist]

Oh go away. Don't come here and try to school me about music. I can play Zep and Sabbath songs in my sleep, been playing guitar since the mid 70's, and you're some dope that thinks bending guitar strings is a bad thing. Yeah I've seen the depth of your musical knowledge in Musician's Corner, it isn't much.

And I am supposed to believe yours is? With your garbage about Sabbath. You dont own this board so I wont go away because a self proclaimed expert like you tells me to. You can play their music in your sleep? Quite a bragger aren't we. Stick it where the sun dont shine punk While we are at it. I dont suppose you would reveal if you are in the States or UK? I saw your profile so at least I believe you play. But to say I cant play with nothing to base it on is quite insulting. But that is what you are best at. You and your girlfriend Electro

Edited September 29, 2010 by silvermedalist

[Electrophile]

LOL, I'm not his girlfriend. I don't even know him.

Again, LOL.

[silvermedalist]

Oh go away. Don't come here and try to school me about music. I can play Zep and Sabbath songs in my sleep, been playing guitar since the mid 70's, and you're some dope that thinks bending guitar strings is a bad thing. Yeah I've seen the depth of your musical knowledge in Musician's Corner, it isn't much.

According to your profile you are 41. So in the mid seventies you would have been about 6 years old. But playing Zepp and Sabbath. You are full of BS. Nice try, you hung yourself on that one. As for you Liz, you just have to follow my posts and try and get me going dont you?

[Electrophile]

LOL. Here's some advice, free of charge: I'd think long and hard about what you just said. I don't follow anyone around anywhere. I responded to something that Chowder said. Not you. You had no business involving me in the prick-waving contest you're getting into with danelectro.

I'm no one's "girlfriend" here, there is no "clique", there is no "cabal". The idea that you'd think that because two people happen to come to the same conclusion about something someone else said (not you) means they're dating or something.....well, you're sick.

[silvermedalist]

LOL. Here's some advice, free of charge: I'd think long and hard about what you just said. I don't follow anyone around anywhere. I responded to something that Chowder said. Not you. You had no business involving me in the prick-waving contest you're getting into with danelectro.

I'm no one's "girlfriend" here, there is no "clique", there is no "cabal". The idea that you'd think that because two people happen to come to the same conclusion about something someone else said (not you) means they're dating or something.....well, you're sick.

I am not sick. You are always trying to put me down and "police me" to a degree. I am leaving this thread now so enjoy. I have other matters that are more important. And I was here earlier trying to discuss this topic until this Danelectro turned it nasty. I am really surprised you are putting down Led zeppelin to a degree. Using a few of their lyrics to desparage them or make them look simple which they are not. Not all of their lyrics are summed up by your examples. Why dont you go pick on somebody in the Pink Floyd forum. I have heard you are pretty well known there.

[danelectro]

According to your profile you are 41. So in the mid seventies you would have been about 6 years old. But playing Zepp and Sabbath. You are full of BS. Nice try, you hung yourself on that one. As for you Liz, you just have to follow my posts and try and get me going dont you?

You are nut, lots of kids start playing at 6 or earlier. Heck Ellen DeGeneres has some young guitar slinging kid or pianist on her show almost weekly. Yes I've been playing since 1976, I got my first guitar that Xmas. For you to imply that is unique is just another example of how little you think.

[Electrophile]

I am really surprised you are putting down Led zeppelin to a degree. Using a few of their lyrics to desparage them or make them look simple which they are not. Not all of their lyrics are summed up by your examples.

Did I say all their lyrics were summed up by my examples? No, I didn't. Next time you want to pretend to chastise me for something I said, make sure I actually said it first -- it'll help. I wasn't trying to make them look "simple" either.

Furthermore, stating fact is not "putting down" or "disparaging" anyone. Their lyrics could at times be very heavy-handed on the innuendo and to me, it's a bit grating. Thankfully there's more than a few songs that aren't like that I can enjoy.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Electrophile

[silvermedalist]

You are nut, lots of kids start playing at 6 or earlier. Heck Ellen DeGeneres has some young guitar slinging kid or pianist on her show almost weekly. Yes I've been playing since 1976, I got my first guitar that Xmas. For you to imply that is unique is just another example of how little you think.

I am not saying you did not play. But I highly doubt you were at the level of playing material at that point. So why not just say you started then. Just forget it. You lay off of me and I will lay off of you from here on out. I am crashing so if you have more, save it.

[Misfit]

Planet Caravan is my favorite song by Black Sabbath.

[Jahfin]

Planet Caravan is my favorite song by Black Sabbath.

I was never the world's biggest Pantera fan but I've always liked their version of this song.

[danelectro]

I am not saying you did not play. But I highly doubt you were at the level of playing material at that point. So why not just say you started then. Just forget it. You lay off of me and I will lay off of you from here on out. I am crashing so if you have more, save it.

I never implied I was playing Zep, Sabbath or any rock when I started, I simply pointed out I have been playing that long. I only posted that fend off your attack because you've tried to portray yourself as some kind of expert when your posts in Musician's Corner tell the truth about how little you know about music, specifically guitar playing. There's no way you could understand what's complex and what's not.

I haven't insulted the mighty Zep, all I've done is point out rock and roll is the antithesis to more sophisticated music. It's not jazz or classical, it's a genre firmly rooted few chords, repetitive phrases and simple scales. Sure there were a few that stretched the boundries a bit but bands like Zep and Sabbath were pretty simple in their approach, they aren't prog bands or moonlighting jazzers and their simple roots music influences are well publicized. These are bands whose musical talent was often shadowed by their excessive lifestyles, drug abuse, overtly sexual stage moves and penchant for repetitive riffs. You're trying to make Zep out like their freakin' George Benson or something. For someone that claims to be a HUGE fan I think you missed the point.

Edited September 29, 2010 by danelectro

[Electrophile]

George Benson is awesome. Give Me The Night and This Masquerade are great songs.

[Misfit]

I was never the world's biggest Pantera fan but I've always liked their version of this song.

yeah, i really like that video as well.

[danelectro]

George Benson is awesome. Give Me The Night and This Masquerade are great songs.

Agreed, everything he did was gold.

[Ady]

I was never the world's biggest Pantera fan but I've always liked their version of this song.

This one's good too, with added flute.

And, I love this version of Solitude by Cathedral.

[Chowder]

Hahaha, you guys are killing me.

If any of you were a little older, you'd know that the Sabs were considered the red-headed stepchildren of 70s British rock. FFS. And don't lecture me on muscial sophistication. It doesn't take a graduate from the Royal Academy of Music to compare & contrast the first 4 albums by Zep and Sabbath. It took the Sabs until their 5th album to add any diversity and colour to their narrow, monochrome vision.

And what the hell has George Benson got to do with any of this? Whatever next - The Who eclipsed by the Bee Gees?

Unbelievable.

[danelectro]

Fair enough, care to take a minute and demonstrate how Zep II is more sophisticated than Paranoid?

More than a little ironic some people are using LZ as an example of musical sophistication in rock considering the minute they started to become a bit more sophisticated they got slammed for it, In Though The Out Door. Even today a vast majority lament that they ever veered from the formula of the first 4 albums, which were arguably the most straight forward.

[Swede]

Diversity does not make a rock and roll band sophisticated. My two cents.

[Kiwi_Zep_Fan87]

*checks into thread

*But chooses to flee for fear of being caught in the middle of what is very likely going to be the start of WW III

[silvermedalist]

I never implied I was playing Zep, Sabbath or any rock when I started, I simply pointed out I have been playing that long. I only posted that fend off your attack because you've tried to portray yourself as some kind of expert when your posts in Musician's Corner tell the truth about how little you know about music, specifically guitar playing. There's no way you could understand what's complex and what's not.

I haven't insulted the mighty Zep, all I've done is point out rock and roll is the antithesis to more sophisticated music. It's not jazz or classical, it's a genre firmly rooted few chords, repetitive phrases and simple scales. Sure there were a few that stretched the boundries a bit but bands like Zep and Sabbath were pretty simple in their approach, they aren't prog bands or moonlighting jazzers and their simple roots music influences are well publicized. These are bands whose musical talent was often shadowed by their excessive lifestyles, drug abuse, overtly sexual stage moves and penchant for repetitive riffs. You're trying to make Zep out like their freakin' George Benson or something. For someone that claims to be a HUGE fan I think you missed the point.

You can tell by my opinions how well I can play and all? That is a bunch of nonsense. I took theory and have played for 30 years and played piano before though I no longer have one. Dont sit there and judge me. You have no clue what you are talking about. Chowder is right on the money. And what does Benson have to do with this discussion Electro ? Any true guitar player knows that Led Zeppelin's material is far more sophisticated than that of Sabbath or ACDC for that matter. You carry on like you are some kind of rock star. Your perception is way off base. You asked me about Paranoid. Ha. Real tough to play that isnt it? You think that Benson plays the guitar better than Page? Why dont you go join a Black Sabbath board or try and find a Benson board.

Edited September 29, 2010 by silvermedalist

[Chowder]

Wow, it seems you're actually being serious here, danelectro. I really thought you were kidding. Ok then, FWIW, here's my assessment:

PARANOID: With the exception of Planet Caravan, which is a pleasant enough but essentially one-dimensional and repetitive groovy magic carpet ride, the whole album boils down to simple, heads-down-no-nonsense-mindless-boogie. The only variation within or between the songs is provided by jarring time-changes and the Frankenstein-esque welding together of incongruous segments. Admittedly, this was one of the Sabs' trademarks, but in their early days it made for frankly comical listening at times, and it took them until SBS to master the art of linking the disparate passages to create a flowing, cohesive whole. Iommi's soloing is repetitive and generally directionless, somewhat akin to a cat chasing its tail, and is widely accepted as not being his strongest suit. Ozzy's vocals are strong but one-dimensional, and he was and remains incapable of carrying a ballad, or emoting anything other than anger or insanity.

LZII: Whilst still principally founded on basic blues structures, the song construction and balance was a vast progression from LZI, which I have always seen as a fairly grey, almost dismal album. But by LZII, their construction of segmental songs was vastly superior to that of the Sabs. WLL and BIOH, for example, move through various differing sections, but those sections form a pleasing and logical coalescence. Plant's deftness of touch on WIAWSNB, Thank You and Ramble On were a joy to behold, and something Ozzy could only dream of achieving. Page's riffing was considered, varied and sensibly paced. The expressiveness and variety of his soloing is evident and undeniable throughout, but peaks on Ramble On and WIAWSNB. The balance, poise and elegance of his slide solo in the latter is one of his high-water marks IMO, and that song alone is an object lesson in the 'light and shade' for which LZ are rightly revered, and which the Sabs almost totally lacked.

As for the rhythm sections, whenever the going gets tough, Ward and Butler are all over the place, but JPJ and Bonzo stay tight as a gnat's chuff throughout. And Moby Dick OWNS Rat Salad.