IS "SCIENCE" THE "NEW RELIGION"?

[BIGDAN]

I've been meaning to post this Topic for some time now, so here goes, i hope you all can be as open minded as i am.

Thousands of years ago, when Man began to wonder about the Universe, those that ruled found that by careful manipulation they could keep the People in Total Submission to their will by playing on the Peoples Fears, this is where the first Religion's came in to existence.

Everything that the People couldn't understand could now be attributed to one form of Deity (God) or another and this suited the Rulers because they had control of the Religion and could appoint the Clergy (for want of a better word) and so control what the People would fear and thus getting a Society that would obey the Rulers for Fear of what catastrophe would occur if they did not.

This went on for thousands of years, to this day some societies are still Ruled by Leaders that use Religion and the Fear of what "God" will bestow on their Society to keep the People in tow and obey not only "Gods Law" but will bow to the "Will" of their Leaders for fear of what will happen if they don't, Islam is a Good Example of this.

Here in the West, Religion has become a thing to be Ridiculed and Ignored by many ordinary people and so the Leaders have had to find another way of putting Fear in to our lives so we will Obey their Will. I believe they have done this by Manipulating Scientific Facts and the Data that Scientists collect in to a Form of Doctrine that resembles the way that Religion once was used.

Yes Science is being used to cause fear amongst the People where no Fear should exist, and by doing this our Leaders and their Paymasters are able to rule us just as effectively as the Rulers of Old, only now they do it with Science rather than Religion, and that's why i say that "Science" is the "New Religion".

Fear through Religion=The Inquisition.

Fear through Science=Global Warming.

A Society without Religion begats Communism, a Society without Science begats?

Religion and Science need to be in perfect balance, when one or the other gets the upper hand then the People suffer tremendously, how do we bring the balance back?

The debate is now open, please feel free to comment.

Regards, Danny

[davidb]

If the global warming debate causes changes in energy production, that is, implementing renewable resources such as gravity-magnetic-solar-wind-ocean currents etc. I"m all for it.

About the world heating up, I'd much rather see it cooling down. It's much easier to adapt, just put on more clothes.

Excessive heat doesn't do anything any good.

[Magic Fills the Air]

The academic term is 'climate change' rather than global warming the reason being that while the earth is warming we're seeing more dramatic changes in climate patterns such as the recent floods in Pakistan and hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, even wetter summers here in the UK.

People should fear the science behind climate change. It's very real, unlike religion (sorry if I've offended anyone) and it's happening now. We're using fossil fuels at an unprecedented rate whilst cutting down the rainforests that absorb this pollution. It's illogical and there are consequences to this. Scientists are only trying to highlight this and provide solutions before it's too late (which it may very well be). In the coming decades I believe we're going to see a move towards a more centralised state with governmental authority telling us how we should lead our lives (how far we can travel, how much we should consume and so forth), very much like religion in the past. So in a way, yes, science has become the new religion, but it will have become it on legitimate grounds because as a species we're unwilling to stop our own destruction.

Danny, religion and science are polar opposites, they can never exist in harmony IMO (well not as long as Richard Dawkins continues to live and breathe!)

[BIGDAN]

The academic term is 'climate change' rather than global warming the reason being that while the earth is warming we're seeing more dramatic changes in climate patterns such as the recent floods in Pakistan and hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, even wetter summers here in the UK.

People should fear the science behind climate change. It's very real, unlike religion (sorry if I've offended anyone) and it's happening.

Danny, religion and science are polar opposites, they can never exist in harmony IMO (well not as long as Richard Dawkins contines to live and breathe!)

Hi Magic,

Not necessarily, Religion does not have to be based on Deities, it can be based on a Belief System like Buddhism, its just that we rarely see anything like this today.

We cannot do much to stop climate change, it has happened so often in the past that to predict it in the future would be so very probable, its the way that Governments Pick what New Scientific Facts they are going to use to get Us to do their Will that gets me, there is so much diversity in what is being Discovered in the Scientific world that I'm not surprised that even Scientists are having problems believing all that is being put about by our said Governments.

Regards, Danny

[Magic Fills the Air]

Hi Magic,

Not necessarily, Religion does not have to be based on Deities, it can be based on a Belief System like Buddhism, its just that we rarely see anything like this today.

We cannot do much to stop climate change, it has happened so often in the past that to predict it in the future would be so very probable, its the way that Governments Pick what New Scientific Facts they are going to use to get Us to do their Will that gets me, there is so much diversity in what is being Discovered in the Scientific world that I'm not surprised that even Scientists are having problems believing all that is being put about by our said Governments.

Regards, Danny

Yes, we can have a religion that is not based on Deities, like a moral belief system. Even Richard Dawkins advocates a need for such a thing to be taught in schools, but we don't have to call it 'religion'. I know I wouldn't, I would call it moral philosophy - I think we need to wipe the slate clean where religion is concerned. This moral order could exist hand-in-hand with science, and the world would be a much better place if it did.

Climate change has happened in the past, but what is happening now is unprecedented if we look at the scientific data like the Stern Report. Climate change in the past was based on natural fluctuations in the earth's temperature. What's happening now is man-made, caused by deforestation, air pollution, and so forth. Hopefully we can stop it advancing with technological developments like carbon capture storage.

[BIGDAN]

Yes, we can have a religion that is not based on Deities, like a moral belief system. Even Richard Dawkins advocates a need for such a thing to be taught in schools, but we don't have to call it 'religion'. I know I wouldn't, I would call it moral philosophy - I think we need to wipe the slate clean where religion is concerned. This moral order could exist hand-in-hand with science, and the world would be a much better place if it did.

Climate change has happened in the past, but what is happening now is unprecedented if we look at the scientific data like the Stern Report. Climate change in the past was based on natural fluctuations in the earth's temperature. What's happening now is man-made, caused by deforestation, air pollution, and so forth. Hopefully we can stop it advancing with technological developments like carbon capture storage.

I couldn't agree more, but the point i was making by starting this topic is that WE are being manipulated in the same way by our Governments as we have been since time began, only now we are being manipulated with Science rather than Religion.

And lets not forget that Islam relies heavily on the Koranic Verses about Science in order to substantiate that it is a Divine Book, so it uses Science as a Foundation to its Religious Indoctrination.

The one thing that makes me wonder about all of the Bible-Torah-Koranic teachings is the fact that not one of these Great Books, with all the Divinity they proclaim, have never ever once reported any Dinosaur Bones and what they could be from, they not only do not mention them but find it a total Revelation that they exist at all, its like God played a trick on all of them, and maybe he did, or maybe he is a she and has a wicked sense of humour, or maybe its all bull shite, all i know is that THEY are still trying to manipulate ME with their Science whereas as i child THEY were manipulating ME with their Religion, that's all I'm saying.

Regards, Danny

[Magic Fills the Air]

I couldn't agree more, but the point i was making by starting this topic is that WE are being manipulated in the same way by our Governments as we have been since time began, only now we are being manipulated with Science rather than Religion.

And lets not forget that Islam relies heavily on the Koranic Verses about Science in order to substantiate that it is a Divine Book, so it uses Science as a Foundation to its Religious Indoctrination.

The one thing that makes me wonder about all of the Bible-Torah-Koranic teachings is the fact that not one of these Great Books, with all the Divinity they proclaim, have never ever once reported any Dinosaur Bones and what they could be from, they not only do not mention them but find it a total Revelation that they exist at all, its like God played a trick on all of them, and maybe he did, or maybe he is a she and has a wicked sense of humour, or maybe its all bull shite, all i know is that THEY are still trying to manipulate ME with their Science whereas as i child THEY were manipulating ME with their Religion, that's all I'm saying.

Regards, Danny

I like your thinking Danny! When Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking on my door and start to trying to convert me to their religion, all I need to do is ask them if God created 'man' in his own image why did he put the dinosaurs on earth for 160 million years? That question usually sends them packing!

It's the government's job to manipulate us and tell us what to do, be it with religion, science or just authority. You may not like it, but believe me a world without government is a very frightening prospect.

[BIGDAN]

Climate change has happened in the past, but what is happening now is unprecedented if we look at the scientific data like the Stern Report. Climate change in the past was based on natural fluctuations in the earth's temperature. What's happening now is man-made, caused by deforestation, air pollution, and so forth. Hopefully we can stop it advancing with technological developments like carbon capture storage.

Hi Magic,

I've seen all documentaries that have come out on this subject, i really miss anything related to this subject, but i look at it this way, World Government are doing little to Stop Global Warming or Man Made Climate Change, except to tell US the People to cut back in our Wicked Ways, just as the Old Time Religious Governments did, but the Worlds Governments are doing very little themselves to actually bring about a turn around in these matters, they still rely on Oil and Coal for Fuel, when we all know that there is much less harmful ways of producing energy like Wind Power, Solar Power, Heat Exchange, Wave Power, Bio Fuel, even Nuclear Fuel, but they don't put anywhere near as much time, effort or money in to these ventures as they do in trying to Manipulate US is to cutting back, and that's what i base my time and effort on, this World of ours is in NO DANGER from US, and for that reason i will carry on as normal taking scant notice of Government Based Scientists or Religious Fanatics, i have the Wisdom to not believe the HYPE our Governments are churning out, but i will still recycle my waste as any decent world citizen should do, and for no other reason than that.

Regards, Danny

[Magic Fills the Air]

Hi Magic,

I've seen all documentaries that have come out on this subject, i really miss anything related to this subject, but i look at it this way, World Government are doing little to Stop Global Warming or Man Made Climate Change, except to tell US the People to cut back in our Wicked Ways, just as the Old Time Religious Governments did, but the Worlds Governments are doing very little themselves to actually bring about a turn around in these matters, they still rely on Oil and Coal for Fuel, when we all know that there is much less harmful ways of producing energy like Wind Power, Solar Power, Heat Exchange, Wave Power, Bio Fuel, even Nuclear Fuel, but they don't put anywhere near as much time, effort or money in to these ventures as they do in trying to Manipulate US is to cutting back, and that's what i base my time and effort on, this World of ours is in NO DANGER from US, and for that reason i will carry on as normal taking scant notice of Government Based Scientists or Religious Fanatics, i have the Wisdom to not believe the HYPE our Governments are churning out, but i will still recycle my waste as any decent world citizen should do, and for no other reason than that.

Regards, Danny

I agree that governments aren't doing enough to stop climate change, but the main obstacle they face, and they can never confront it, is democracy. Democratic states are not going to elect authoritarian governments that tell citizens what they must do to stop climate change. Of course people feel like they're contributing by recycling their waste, but they still fly abroad several times a year on budget airlines. People are not willing to make the lifestyle changes necessary to halt climate change. And if governments ask them to, they won't get elected and the global economy will go down the toilet. All the ecological alternatives that you mention but governments don't pursue aren't enough for people to have the same level of living as they do now.

[BIGDAN]

I like your thinking Danny! When Jehovah's Witnesses come knocking on my door and start to trying to convert me to their religion, all I need to do is ask them if God created 'man' in his own image why did he put the dinosaurs on earth for 160 million years? That question usually sends them packing!

It's the government's job to manipulate us and tell us what to do, be it with religion, science or just authority. You may not like it, but believe me a world without government is a very frightening prospect.

Yes, we do need Government, but Good Governance is a must and i don't see it anywhere in this world, and a World Without Good Government is a bad a no Government at all, it would be Chaos without Governments but it is Organised Chaos with the shower of shite that we have now.

I know i cant change things myself, i just thought it was about time i gave you all an insight it to my thinking, Mad as it may seem to you all.

The Bible says this,

"God made Man in His own image and likeness"

My knowledge of Logic tells me this,

"God is Man" therefore "Man is God, so there is no God but Man, therefore all of our problems are Man made and we need not ask God to help US solve them as all things related to this problem we can only solve ourselves"

I hope this makes your understanding of where I'm coming from a little easier and clearer? as for me, I'll keep taking the tablets and ask for an earlier appointment.

Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

I agree that governments aren't doing enough to stop climate change, but the main obstacle they face, and they can never confront it, is democracy. Democratic states are not going to elect authoritarian governments that tell citizens what they must do to stop climate change. Of course people feel like they're contributing by recycling their waste, but they still fly abroad several times a year on budget airlines. People are not willing to make the lifestyle changes necessary to halt climate change. And if governments ask them to, they won't get elected and the global economy will go down the toilet. All the ecological alternatives that you mention but governments don't pursue aren't enough for people to have the same level of living as they do now.

Hi Magic,

I believe that with time effort and money we could see our reliance on oil come to an end, but as most of the worlds oil reserves occur in poor countries and our policy of trying to counter world terrorism, which we ourselves perpetrate, we need to buy that oil to give our "Friends" some sort of income. Lets face it using Energy that costs the supplier nothing but the funds to erect something to catch that free energy is much better than transporting all that oil, coal and gas around the world, but as yet our Governments don't seen to want to go down that route, if we were playing a game on our computers I'm sure we would not be relying on carbon based fuel to supply power to our societies, still there's 2012 to think about you know?

Regards, Danny

[Magic Fills the Air]

Hi Magic,

I believe that with time effort and money we could see our reliance on oil come to an end, but as most of the worlds oil reserves occur in poor countries and our policy of trying to counter world terrorism, which we ourselves perpetrate, we need to buy that oil to give our "Friends" some sort of income. Lets face it using Energy that costs the supplier nothing but the funds to erect something to catch that free energy is much better than transporting all that oil, coal and gas around the world, but as yet our Governments don't seen to want to go down that route, if we were playing a game on our computers I'm sure we would not be relying on carbon based fuel to supply power to our societies, still there's 2012 to think about you know?

Regards, Danny

Our reliance on oil will have to come to an end eventually. It's been argued by some academics that we've already reached peak oil which is rather alarming. I agree Western countries, especially the US and the UK, shouldn't be at the mercy of countries like Russia and Iraq for our oil supplies which can push up prices anytime they choose or worse cut off our supply, and also there is only a limited amount oil in the earth for us to consume. The problem is the US is addicted to oil, it's entire society is based around the car. The US needs to drastically change the way it operates before it can even contemplate switching to more ecological power sources. People won't be willing to change their habits so it comes down to the government influenced by scientists to convince them that things have to change. So to answer your original question, yes science is becoming the new religion but this time most people aren't listening. The problem is escalating though. As we saw at the Copenhagen Summit in December growing economies like China and India are relying on oil just as much as the West to develop economically and achieve the same levels of economic growth as the US and other Western nations. They are simply unwilling to cut back as they believe they have the right to the same standard of living that people in the West have enjoyed for decades. As a result China is now the biggest global polluter. It's a complex problem with no clear solution, but scienctists and governments have an important role to play in finding a solution (that is, of course, if one can be found).

[redrum]

If Einstein believed in God then that's good enough for me.

[BIGDAN]

Our reliance on oil will have to come to an end eventually. It's been argued by some academics that we've already reached peak oil which is rather alarming. I agree Western countries, especially the US and the UK, shouldn't be at the mercy of countries like Russia and Iraq for our oil supplies which can push up prices anytime they choose or worse cut off our supply, and also there is only a limited amount oil in the earth for us to consume. The problem is the US is addicted to oil, it's entire society is based around the car. The US needs to drastically change the way it operates before it can even contemplate switching to more ecological power sources. People won't be willing to change their habits so it comes down to the government influenced by scientists to convince them that things have to change. So to answer your original question, yes science is becoming the new religion but this time most people aren't listening. The problem is escalating though. As we saw at the Copenhagen Summit in December growing economies like China and India are relying on oil just as much as the West to develop economically and achieve the same levels of economic growth as the US and other Western nations. They are simply unwilling to cut back as they believe they have the right to the same standard of living that people in the West have enjoyed for decades. As a result China is now the biggest global polluter. It's a complex problem with no clear solution, but scienctists and governments have an important role to play in finding a solution (that is, of course, if one can be found).

Dont worry Magic, Science has always been able to overcome most of our problems, we can create artificial oil, or at least they can make a very good substitute. Look at how Brazil are making Bio Fuel, the need for refining petrol can be replaced by growing plants and then making Ethanol to power our cars. Scientists have been able to create plastics in sheep's milk, i believe that Scientists can solve many of our problems, but they cant stop Governments manipulating their findings to achieve their Governments agenda, and if that means we have to be treated like mushrooms then that's how they will achieve their goal, in other words "feed us on shit and keep us in the dark and we will thrive".

My brother in law, about 10 years ago was employed by the World Bank to build Shanghai a Water Purification and Sewage Plant out in China. He found out that China were commissioning 75 Fossil Fuel Power Stations every year, 3 every 2 weeks, if Man Made Global Warming was that bad then the US would nuke every one of them as they came on line, so i don't think that there is anything to worry about Man Made Global Warming, and even if there was then that alone could starve off the next ice age, and i don't want to be buried under 2 kilometers of ice sheet again thank you very much, jokes aside, i worry more about what our Governments will do to keep alive the Arms Manufacturering Industry than i do about Man Made Global Warming, what we need is a Knowledgeable and Just Leader, someone who can balance Scientific Fact with Religious Faith, am i just the Man to do it?

Regards, Danny

[Janet]

At least science is based on fact or principles that can be proven to be true, whereas most religion is based on some old myths and fairy tales. That being said, I find the branch of science that is most often used to control us is medicine. Doctors are always telling us to do things that turn out later to do us no good or even worse, harm us.

[davidb]

If Einstein believed in God then that's good enough for me.

It just shows he was a nut.

Most genius's are.

Consulted Stephen Hawking lately?

[silvermedalist]

[.

Danny, religion and science are polar opposites, they can never exist in harmony IMO (well not as long as Richard Dawkins continues to live and breathe!)

[Tristan]

My knowledge of Logic tells me this,

"God is Man" therefore "Man is God, so there is no God but Man, therefore all of our problems are Man made and we need not ask God to help US solve them as all things related to this problem we can only solve ourselves"

Well, your knowledge of logic tells you wrong.

You made a common mistake here, the universal-affirmative convert.

"All humans are mammals." therefore "All mammals are humans." is wrong.

"All humans are mammals." therefore "Some mammals are humans." is correct.

[BIGDAN]

Well, your knowledge of logic tells you wrong.

You made a common mistake here, the universal-affirmative convert.

"All humans are mammals." therefore "All mammals are humans." is wrong.

"All humans are mammals." therefore "Some mammals are humans." is correct.

Hi 'Tristan'

I made no such mistake, i never once mentioned Mammals, the Bible says God created Man in His own image and likeness, Genesis 1:27 , i deduced that if Man is Created in the image of God then Man is as God and God is as Man, that has nothing to do with the universal-affirmative convert so i am not wrong as I'm not using it.

It also explains to me that Humanity comes from another Humanity which We call God, its more likely a Starship Admiral than a Deity in my honest Logical Opinion.

Regards, Danny

[Atlas]

Reality is Supreme Being. Truth is thought which is consistent with Reality. Science is merely the quest for Truth. This is not new.

[BIGDAN]

Reality is Supreme Being. Truth is thought which is consistent with Reality. Science is merely the quest for Truth. This is not new.

"What" is not "New"?

Regards, Danny

[Magic Fills the Air]

Dont worry Magic, Science has always been able to overcome most of our problems, we can create artificial oil, or at least they can make a very good substitute. Look at how Brazil are making Bio Fuel, the need for refining petrol can be replaced by growing plants and then making Ethanol to power our cars. Scientists have been able to create plastics in sheep's milk, i believe that Scientists can solve many of our problems, but they cant stop Governments manipulating their findings to achieve their Governments agenda, and if that means we have to be treated like mushrooms then that's how they will achieve their goal, in other words "feed us on shit and keep us in the dark and we will thrive".

My brother in law, about 10 years ago was employed by the World Bank to build Shanghai a Water Purification and Sewage Plant out in China. He found out that China were commissioning 75 Fossil Fuel Power Stations every year, 3 every 2 weeks, if Man Made Global Warming was that bad then the US would nuke every one of them as they came on line, so i don't think that there is anything to worry about Man Made Global Warming, and even if there was then that alone could starve off the next ice age, and i don't want to be buried under 2 kilometers of ice sheet again thank you very much, jokes aside, i worry more about what our Governments will do to keep alive the Arms Manufacturering Industry than i do about Man Made Global Warming, what we need is a Knowledgeable and Just Leader, someone who can balance Scientific Fact with Religious Faith, am i just the Man to do it?

Regards, Danny

A knowledgeable and 'just' leader is exactly what Plato talked about in 2000 BC, what he termed a 'philosopher king' who would be altruistic and govern in everyone's best interests, but in order to achieve this he argued that we need to abolish democracy because such as leader could never be elected. Of course Plato was very utopian in his thinking, but he got some things right. Plato said that that currently people were governed by what he called 'sophists', people who are skilled in the art of manipulation and persuasion who the masses follow. I think that's true today. I think Tony Blair is one of the biggest 'sophists' this country (UK) has ever seen.

[Magic Fills the Air]

If Einstein believed in God then that's good enough for me.

Einstein didn't believe in God, this is what he said:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

Sorry to burst your bubble!

[MMAharaja]

I really don't know where to start, so I'll just pull out the part that pissed me off the most and see where it goes.

Yes Science is being used to cause fear amongst the People where no Fear should exist, and by doing this our Leaders and their Paymasters are able to rule us just as effectively as the Rulers of Old, only now they do it with Science rather than Religion, and that's why i say that "Science" is the "New Religion".

Fear through Religion=The Inquisition.

Fear through Science=Global Warming.

You would probably be dead right now if not for science. Science has added decades to the average human life through everything from medicine to sanitation to increased crop yields. Without science, you wouldn't have a computer, a cell phone, or a car. At night you would have a fire instead of light bulbs and a heater.

Science has been invaluable to our species because it's the best method we have for learning about the world around us. Science is constantly changing and expanding, and all that matters is the evidence.

The problem is that you seem to have a hard time understanding that sometimes reality is scary. Global warming isn't manufactured to instill fear in the masses, it's real. It's not something that a bunch of scientists came up with in a meeting, it's the best explanation we have for all of the known data. If you can come up with a better explanation for those observations, or if you can prove that the observations have been fabricated, be my guest. You might even win a Nobel Prize for it. Of course that's not going to happen, because science works, and based on your diatribe, you don't even know how.

[BIGDAN]

A knowledgeable and 'just' leader is exactly what Plato talked about in 2000 BC, what he termed a 'philosopher king' who would be altruistic and govern in everyone's best interests, but in order to achieve this he argued that we need to abolish democracy because such as leader could never be elected. Of course Plato was very utopian in his thinking, but he got some things right. Plato said that that currently people were governed by what he called 'sophists', people who are skilled in the art of manipulation and persuasion who the masses follow. I think that's true today. I think Tony Blair is one of the biggest 'sophists' this country (UK) has ever seen.

Hi Magic,

You got that right, and my one fault must be that i too am a Utopian Thinker.

In the end i suppose Humanity gets what it deserves, be it Religious Zealotry or Fucked Up Democracy, right I'm off to join the Rohirrim, I'll see you all in the Riddermark in the next film, I've always thought of myself as a Gothic Warrior in a previous life, but that's another Topic right?

Regards, Danny