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Walesdad

Intelligent Design or Pure Chance.........

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99% of the MESS ON EARTH was caused by MAN......so why bring God into it att all then?? ...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???!:):)

Maybe so that when there's a disaster that puts us out of our own self-made-misery we can blame that on Him too ? ! :blink:

Edited by sweetredwine

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That is highly reductive :):):)!!!

It seems a shame to end up like the dinosaurs, but maybe there's a reason for everything ... :unsure:

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It seems a shame to end up like the dinosaurs, but maybe there's a reason for everything ... :unsure:

At this ratre, we will all end up far WORSE than any reptile :):):)!!!!

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......still more MYSTICISM we all do not really need...esp nowadays :):):)

You've overdosed on Mysticism?

Mysticism (from the Greek μυστικός, mystikos) is the phenomenon of having a unique experience of communion with God, an ultimate reality, divinity, or insight into spiritual truths.

Sometimes the words Enlightenment and Illumination (from Latin illuminatio, meaning 'a lighting up' or 'an enlightening') can be used to describe the mystical experience.

Mystics are often part of a larger religious tradition, and form spiritual movements within their religion, such as Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism within Hinduism, Kabbalah within Judaism, movements of Christian mysticism and Sufism within Islam.

source: wiki

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You've overdosed on Mysticism?

source: wiki

No worries, I never overdose on anything:):):):). But that is my point exactly......if a religion has to ENLIGHTEN or ILLUMINATE us, why all the dark and unrevealing mysticism????!:):)

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No worries, I never overdose on anything:):):):). But that is my point exactly......if a religion has to ENLIGHTEN or ILLUMINATE us, why all the dark and unrevealing mysticism????!:):)

Contemplation of the abyss is a contemplation of darkness. I don't know if that is mysticism.Seems more like an existing phenomena, explored and evaluated.But the revelation and explanation of the 3rd secret of Fatima may be more than a mere contemplation of darkness.The assertion in the 2nd part of the secret that "my Immaculate Heart will triumph" is the light in the darkness.

In regard to free will...

And let us not say that it is God who is punishing us in this way; on the contrary it is people themselves who are preparing their own punishment. In his kindness God warns us and calls us to the right path, while respecting the freedom he has given us; hence people are responsible”.

Tarcisio Bertone, SDB

Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli

Secretary of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Edited by Silver Rider

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Upon us all a little rain must fall... as the Zep song goes. But where would we be without the rain? No crops, no fresh water in the streams for life and food.

Without earthquakes, wild fires, storms there be far less diversity of geology and life in general. I'd say all that comes with the deal. A creation that was just static all the time would be more like a doll house; that would be one kind of "creation" but not a very interesting one.

I don't think I buy the whole prayer thing either, at least not that it's supposed to be a Genie in a bottle type of wish list. I figure we are all gonna get sick, old, and die eventually from something, so I don't see any reason for trying to "make a deal" to avoid the obvious.

I suppose I do understand people hoping for some "consideration" if it works that way. But I don't see nature as being cruel, just what it is.

And in terms of evil people, I think someone else already mentioned "freewill" as being behind that. Again, we are not robots and if we are a true creation then we have the ability to be somewhat like the creator and have some choice in what we do. I'm not very religious, but I guess I look at the evil side of things as necessary in the "ying & yang" way in order tor us to know what it means to be good.

Are you saying we don't benefit from plate tectonics and volcanism? Certainly it sucks when people get caught in the middle of it. And the vast loss of life is a tragedy for certain. But without those forces in nature our planet might just look something more like the moon.

I once read how after Egypt built the Aswan dam for hydroelectric energy and to control the Nile river from it's yearly flooding. A large amount of the electric energy created had to go toward the making of fertilizer in order to replace the nutrients that the flooding Nile provided to make the crops along it's banks. Without those floods there never would have been any fertile land in that desert landscape. Without the abundance of crops in that region there never would have been the ability for people there to go beyond hunter gatherers and develop into an advanced culture, with language and arts and science.

I see it all as being part of self correcting and self sustaining system.

I've not mentioned plate tectonics or volcanism,what I did mention was how can a terrible event like the Japanese tragedy be due to free will.As someone who has proclaimed that I am still split down the middle concerning belief in God,what sort of almighty creator is it that is willing to see the destruction of tens of thousands of his innocent creations in return for others gaining anything from that destruction?I can't answer it Brad and I don't think you can either.

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Hi all,

Walter:

I've not mentioned plate tectonics or volcanism,what I did mention was how can a terrible event like the Japanese tragedy be due to free will.As someone who has proclaimed that I am still split down the middle concerning belief in God,what sort of almighty creator is it that is willing to see the destruction of tens of thousands of his innocent creations in return for others gaining anything from that destruction?

Good post, my friend and somethings to think about. ;)

My posts on free will were aimed at the human condition.

This 3rd rock from the Sun,is also living,.....it moves,grows and people sometimes get in the way,...

KB

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I've not mentioned plate tectonics or volcanism,what I did mention was how can a terrible event like the Japanese tragedy be due to free will.As someone who has proclaimed that I am still split down the middle concerning belief in God,what sort of almighty creator is it that is willing to see the destruction of tens of thousands of his innocent creations in return for others gaining anything from that destruction?I can't answer it Brad and I don't think you can either.

Hi all,

Walter:

Good post, my friend and somethings to think about. ;)

My posts on free will were aimed at the human condition.

This 3rd rock from the Sun,is also living,.....it moves,grows and people sometimes get in the way,...

KB

... and precious innocent animals, wildlife, trees, greenery, etc. get wiped out too, but maybe it's time to step back and look at this world from a Creator/Creation viewpoint.

For example, the reality of the food chain is terrifying for most of us to contemplate, yet there is a unique sort of beauty in the whole structure that comes from gratitude. For example, animals appreciate life - every single minute of it - and they don't want to die but death doesn't seem to be much of a big deal for them either, and the Creation's design helps them not to suffer - while their death contributes positively to another creature's life and to the fullness of Creation.

Our Creation is constantly changing - and some species become extinct while new varieties arise. Everything is in a state of flux, and that is evidently the way things here are meant to be. The Design calls for death and new life, and the abruptness of devastating changes probably reduces the overall suffering of people, animals and nature in the long run.

Why would our Creator/Creation decide to make devastating changes? Seems to me there might be many reasons ... Why do we rearrange our own homes, Why do we plant gardens, trees, etc. - then move some, remove others, add a pond, drain it, landscape for hills and valleys, etc. and yet not perceive it as a tragedy, when creatures (plants, insects, etc.) suffer and die? Probably because - in the overall big picture of the situation - we perceive an eventual improvement. It's really not because we're cruel, and although the injured and deceased plants and insects and animals might be justified in perceiving us that way, one gets the feeling that they probably don't (well, probably not too much - if we try to be thoughtful). Life goes on.

My thought is that we really take for granted our right to stay on this earth while doing just about anything we want to ... what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to see/hear/feel our actions and the results of our actions on others (relationships ignored, distanced and/or destroyed), what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to suffer from the devastating results of our actions (which we often deny, for example the disposal of nuclear waste), what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to see us suffer from the devastating results of our actions - Why and What do we expect our Creator/Creation to put up with ?

Edited by sweetredwine

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and precious innocent animals, wildlife, trees, greenery,]

You don't know anything about nature. :blink:

Edited by Anjin-san

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My thought is that we really take for granted our right to stay on this earth while doing just about anything we want to ... what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to see/hear/feel our actions and the results of our actions on others (relationships ignored, distanced and/or destroyed), what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to suffer from the devastating results of our actions (which we often deny, for example the disposal of nuclear waste), what if our Creator/Creation doesn't want to see us suffer from the devastating results of our actions - Why and What do we expect our Creator/Creation to put up with ?

Maybe John Bonham knows the answer to all of that? I'll have to ask him someday when I get a chance. For now I pray for his soul to have a happy birthday and rest in peace.:):D

Edited by Silver Rider

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No worries, I never overdose on anything:):):):). But that is my point exactly......if a religion has to ENLIGHTEN or ILLUMINATE us, why all the dark and unrevealing mysticism????!:):)

Faith and belief is what you make of it, or not. If one chooses to live in darkness and ignorance then that's their issue, not mine. You seem to have a very morbid outlook on people who profess to have faith. Why exactly? Softly spoken magic spells aside, there's more to faith than just chants and incantations.

Really, there is.

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^Actually, when I take a chakra test, my faith chakra is usually the weakest one. I may seem as if I have a lot of faith. I'm one of those oh-ye-of-little-faith-types, so I must do whatever I can to strengthen that area of my life.:D

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I've not mentioned plate tectonics or volcanism,what I did mention was how can a terrible event like the Japanese tragedy be due to free will.As someone who has proclaimed that I am still split down the middle concerning belief in God,what sort of almighty creator is it that is willing to see the destruction of tens of thousands of his innocent creations in return for others gaining anything from that destruction?I can't answer it Brad and I don't think you can either.

The answer is simple if you believe in God. He does not manipulate every event that takes place here on Earth. He does not alter the course we chose. If we want salvation in a spiritual life, he has promised us that if you are a believing Christian. All things have an answer in that regard whether you like it or not. He did not save his son from the Cross. But if Christians turn out to be right, our salvation lies in the afterlife. A spirittual eternity and I would rather live and die believing the more optomistic outcome. iF it was without any merit, I guess I would throw in the towel. But that is not the case. We have seen miracles occur. Whether they were the act of God we cannot prove beyond all doubt. I would prefer to believe they were. And I do believe. Its my right to. And if you are a non believer, that is your right also. In God I Trust.

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Maybe John Bonham knows the answer to all of that? I'll have to ask him someday when I get a chance. For now I pray for his soul to have a happy birthday and rest in peace.:):D

Me too. His beautiful example of the selfless giving of his incredible talent is timeless, and the gift of his love lives on in the world ...

... and in our hearts, and in our lives.

Maybe John Bonham knows the answer to all of that?

The answer is simple if you believe in God. He does not manipulate every event that takes place here on Earth. He does not alter the course we chose. ... He did not save his son from the Cross. But if Christians turn out to be right, our salvation lies in the afterlife. A spiritual eternity ...

Yes, a spiritual eternity - a chain of love that lasts forever, that must go to the most deserving. That cherished love is what really matters, and the incredibly hard fought battle to pass it on to those we love - especially those who would rather die for love than see love disappear :bravo: - is what gives earthly power and money (in other words, death) its value.

:tears:

The sad Truth is, if it weren't for saints and martyrs, this world would be nothing but :fisheat:

and there would be no reason to really love and :smiley_pray:

because there would be no hope for change.

Edited by sweetredwine

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I wanted to comment further in regard to children. When they are young and in their formative years they require sufficient nurturing and protection, and are often vulnerable. That is why people should wish to help their children, not only because they are the future. Whichever people are most vulnerable in the population should have priority. But children are in a unique position in life in that they have most of their best years ahead of them. Adults in their later years, on the other hand, often have great experience, and if they are good teachers and the children enjoy listening to them, they can pass on a lot of valuable knowledge to the next generation.

Edited by Silver Rider

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Adults in their later years, on the other hand, often have great experience, and if they are good teachers and the children enjoy listening to them, they can pass on a lot of valuable knowledge to the next generation.

But who's gonna want to do that when you can make more money by building a robotic storyteller and putting that in front of kids?

The children enjoy listening to them (hey, haven't you ever seen kids hooked on Thomas the Tank Engine?) and besides, the robotic storytellers can pass on a lot of valuable knowledge to the next generation too.

Most adults nowadays seem to have better things to do with their spare time than working for "free" (for life and the future).

Edited by sweetredwine

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But who's gonna want to do that when you can make more money by building a robotic storyteller and putting that in front of kids?

The children enjoy listening to them (hey, haven't you ever seen kids hooked on Thomas the Tank Engine?) and besides, the robotic storytellers can pass on a lot of valuable knowledge to the next generation too.

Most adults nowadays seem to have better things to do with their spare time than working for "free" (for life and the future).

I guess if you have the luxury of "working for free". For some families "working for free" means they are forced onto welfare in order to meet basic needs. Consequently, the lure of paid employment draws them into the workplace, leaving the child-rearing duties to the eldest of the children, or maybe a grandma if they're lucky. So while the oldest child in charge is at home watching television, the younger children slip out the door into the streets. They're too young to know what has happened; they are strictly in a discovery mode. With adult supervision and appropriate play areas lacking, they are left to their own devices to grow up on the streets; not really an intelligent design.

Edited by Silver Rider

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well, i believe we ( and all living things ) evolved from all the materials that were present on this planet. "stardust" as it has been called in this thread.

at first that statement sounds kinda crazy, but first you have to wrap your mind around time. a loooooooooooooooooooooong time.

and i believe there are many, many other places in the cosmos that are at varying stages of evolving from stardust.

some light years ahead of us, and some light years behind us.

and i believe that a race/races of those that are ahead of us have visited us in our past. it is those beings that i believe our ancestors called "god" and " gods ".

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I guess if you have the luxury of "working for free". For some families "working for free" means they are forced onto welfare in order to meet basic needs. Consequently, the lure of paid employment draws them into the workplace, leaving the child-rearing duties to the eldest of the children, or maybe a grandma if they're lucky. So while the oldest child in charge is at home watching television, the younger children slip out the door into the streets. They're too young to know what has happened; they are strictly in a discovery mode. With adult supervision and appropriate play areas lacking, they are left to their own devices to grow up on the streets; not really an intelligent design.

Hold on, Silver Rider, and think about exactly WHY these families are "forced onto welfare".

Let's begin: Sincere and responsible people don't have sex before marriage, because they know their actions could result in a pregnancy and then they might have to raise the child as a single-parent, which is always difficult on the child.

When a sincere and responsible couple decides to have children, they decide to get married first .

Then, knowing that staying together is always best for the family, they remain faithful to each other, which drastically reduces the probability of divorce - which always ends up damaging the children emotionally and economically, whether we want to admit it or not.

The best way to remain faithful to one's spouse is to take good care of him and the children, which means most (if not all) married women should not work outside the home, even if they are forced onto welfare to remain at home.

Be honest and admit the basic problem: wives and mothers have changed and no longer wish to remain faithful and/or remain at home. Husbands have changed and no longer want a "dependent wife" - they want the extra income.

So, what happens is that all the world wants to "go to work" to produce billions and billions of widgets and whatnots and whatevers, polluting the world so that everybody can stay busy being miserable.

Sorry, but all this craziness has got to stop somewhere, somehow, sometime - and it stops when we stop our selfish desires for ego-satisfaction - which is really what most people are looking for nowadays.

Edited by sweetredwine

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Me too. His beautiful example of the selfless giving of his incredible talent is timeless, and the gift of his love lives on in the world ...

... and in our hearts, and in our lives.

Yes, a spiritual eternity - a chain of love that lasts forever, that must go to the most deserving. That cherished love is what really matters, and the incredibly hard fought battle to pass it on to those we love - especially those who would rather die for love than see love disappear :bravo: - is what gives earthly power and money (in other words, death) its value.

:tears:

The sad Truth is, if it weren't for saints and martyrs, this world would be nothing but :fisheat:

and there would be no reason to really love and :smiley_pray:

because there would be no hope for change.

I like to think that Bonzo knew far more than what meets the eye...without all the mysticism around it:):):)!

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Hold on, Silver Rider, and think about exactly WHY these families are "forced onto welfare".

Let's begin: Sincere and responsible people don't have sex before marriage, because they know their actions could result in a pregnancy and then they might have to raise the child as a single-parent, which is always difficult on the child.

When a sincere and responsible couple decides to have children, they decide to get married first .

Then, knowing that staying together is always best for the family, they remain faithful to each other, which drastically reduces the probability of divorce - which always ends up damaging the children emotionally and economically, whether we want to admit it or not.

The best way to remain faithful to one's spouse is to take good care of him and the children, which means most (if not all) married women should not work outside the home, even if they are forced onto welfare to remain at home.

Be honest and admit the basic problem: wives and mothers have changed and no longer wish to remain faithful and/or remain at home. Husbands have changed and no longer want a "dependent wife" - they want the extra income.

So, what happens is that all the world wants to "go to work" to produce billions and billions of widgets and whatnots and whatevers, polluting the world so that everybody can stay busy being miserable.

Sorry, but all this craziness has got to stop somewhere, somehow, sometime - and it stops when we stop our selfish desires for ego-satisfaction - which is really what most people are looking for nowadays.

Let's say in this case they are a married couple, each of whom must work to make ends meet to cover the basic costs of food, housing, transportation, medicine, clothing and the children's needs in an area of high unemployment. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, hypothetically they are faithful.

The next problem, a widow who survives her husband may be forced to work for a living, even if she never envisioned such a scenario. There is no guarantee that a wife will have children who will survive to look after her needs. Let's say she also must care for an aging, disabled parent, alone, and she needs her career.

Edited by Silver Rider

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