Australia vs. United States: Anger rises over Chris Lane murder

[2bitnogoodjive]

So apparently we're to understand a former Australian PM calling for a tourism boycott is more up to speed on this international incident than the White House. I'm not surprised in the least. The thing is the legal process and investigation had already concluded in the Zimmerman/Martin incident when this administration put on a full court press to prosecute Zimmerman. Folks, if you are living in the United States you are living in a banana republic and unfortunately these three cretins are not only the face of the country's future -- they are the country's future.

I'm not sure if you mean that our country's future will be a huge increase in the rate of violent crime, but it has actually decreased dramatically over the years.

According to figures from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS), the rate of violent crime victimization in the United States declined by more than two thirds between the years 1994 and 2009.^[14] In 2009, there were 16.9 victimizations per 1000 persons aged 12 and over. 7.9% of sentenced prisoners in federal prisons on September 30, 2009 were convicted of violent crimes.^[15] 52.4% of sentenced prisoners in state prisons at the end of 2008 were in for violent crimes.^[15] 21.6% of convicted inmates in jails in 2002 (latest available data by type of offense) were in for violent crimes.^[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violent_crime

[planted]

Nice attempt at spin control but It is painfully obvious that gun control and disarmament of United States citizens is exactly what Tim Fisher called for:

"This is the bitter harvest and legacy of the policies of the NRA that even blocked background checks for people buying guns at gunshows. People should take this into account before going to the United States. I am deeply angry about this because of the callous attitude of the three teenagers (but) it's a sign of the proliferation of guns on the ground in the USA...There is a gun for almost every American."

Let the record show Strider is now calling for the institution of "a policy of no children unless you make a certain amount a year" and "a parenting test...a parenting license if you will".

I prefer my fundamental approach to solving social problems far better: personal responsibility, robust state sovereignty, strict federal immigration controls, zero tolerance drug enforcement, the broadening of capital punishment offenses and the amendment or dismantlement of all corporate and social welfare programs.

If I were in charge of handing out aid to the public, you know where those asking for help would live?

In a warehouse/shelter sleeping on a 1inch mattess, and you'd be given just enough to live on for a week at a time.

You would get sick of that real fast.

And ya know what?

You're SUPPOSED to get sick of it.

I just learned this week that Massachusetts is third in the country for welfare payouts.

I wonder how Australia handles these things?

Crime

Welfare

Somebody mentioned Asians, might have been Strider.

There's a wonderful book about the East and what it could teach us here in the West. It's by T.R. Reid I believe. "Confucius Lives Next Door"

[slave to zep]

planted, we are not much better than you at this stuff.

we actually copy you .... our young boys and girls .... they all listen to the same music, dress the same, walk the same .... most young aussie guys are wanna be american " gangstas " ....

i hate it.

i hate all of this.

strider is right, imho, and it is exactly what i said earlier in the thread .... we talk to each other differently, we treat each other differently - without respect, because it's ALL ABOUT ME!

you were ahead of me in line, but the attendant is asking me what i'd like - do i say, " oh no, he was before me " nup, i'll just go ahead and order. that little old lady is walking too slow - i'll just push past her, and say " get outa the way you old bag *&%$*@ ...." i need some new shoes, will i get a job, *&%* that, i'll just steal yours, maybe take your blue ray player while i'm at it, get me some drugs, hell yeah! ....

i know things can't always stay the same, but as i said before, if you look back to earlier days - the 30's, 40's, 50's ... watch the old tv shows and movies, you will see that teenagers always rebelled a bit, but they still respected others, and others belongings.

young kids have BAD role models. we need some adults to be adults and let these kids see there is another way.

we have to stop making movies and tv shows that perpetuate these types of " gangsta " characters.

[planted]

That isn't what he said and you know it. You don't have to be a tree-hugging liberal to know the NRA is out-of-whack and just a little paranoid.

I am on the side of law-and-order and when I hear the police complain about the NRA, that makes me think twice about that organization. As I have said many times, support for the 2nd Ammendment and support for the NRA doesn't always go hand-in-hand.

But, back to my point in my OP...getting rid of guns isn't going to solve anything unless you also get rid of the idiots who misuse guns and the idiots who breed them.

Am I the only one who is tired of how ugly the United States has become? I don't mean physically ugly; as I discovered on my cross-country trip this is still a breathtakingly beautiful country, geographically-speaking.

No, I am talking about the ever increasing packs of white-trash and wannabe gangbangers. People walking around with their pants falling off their ass, jailhouse tattoos, cursing up a storm everywhere they go, who think violence is the answer to everything and cannot seem to go anywhere without leaving a mark of some kind...whether it's pissing on a wall or a graffiti tag. I swear I now see whole families, three generations worth, running around dressed and tatted up like wannabe Tupacs...granddad, dad and child all decked out like gangsta billboards. And the women done up like gangsta ho's. Not jus black, but plenty of whites and browns, too. The only ones who seem to be immune for the most part are the Asians...so far, at least.

It's time decent, law-abiding Americans put their foot down and say, "enough is enough!"

Look at any of the recent stories that make the news, that turn your stomach on the "News that makes you say WTF" thread, and you'll find a common thread that runs thru most of them is that too many people who are unfit mentally and financially are having and raising these violent predators. I say it's time we institute a policy of no children unless you make a certain amount a year...say around $25,000-30,000 a year. No more children on the dole.

There should also be a parenting test...a parenting license, if you will. You need a license to drive a car or practice medicine...having and raising a child is just as important and shouldn't be taken so lightly. Not everyone deserves to have a child. It should be considered a privilege not a right. There should be a minimum intelligence standard before someone can have a child.

I realize this will raise howls of anger and cries of civil rights, blah-blah-blah. Phooey. This country is going to hell and it's time we stem the tide of the "Thug Generation".

S,

There are many things in your thread I would like to address, (preferably over a glass of wine, but I will take what I can get) but in the interest of time, I have chosen your opinion on what qualifies someone to parent a child.

IT AIN'T MONEY, OKAY?!

Yes, it helps. But I am telling you right now, there are little children sitting on a dirt floor in the Far East learning 17 languages and 41 musical instruments, and they will come to this country, get into Harvard Medical School and be an anesthesiologist in about 4 days!

Of course I am exaggerating, but it's to prove my point with your post.

Throwing money around isn't the answer to fixing problems, and there is no promise it will raise a good kid.

We have dipshit politicians in this country that keep getting elected by dipshit voters, some of whom aren't even citizens.

Period.

[slave to zep]

S,

There are many things in your thread I would like to address, (preferably over a glass of wine, but I will take what I can get) but in the interest of time, I have chosen your opinion on what qualifies someone to parent a child.

IT AIN'T MONEY, OKAY?!

Yes, it helps. But I am telling you right now, there are little children sitting on a dirt floor in the Far East learning 17 languages and 41 musical instruments, and they will come to this country, get into Harvard Medical School and be an anesthesiologist in about 4 days!

Of course I am exaggerating, but it's to prove my point with your post.

Throwing money around isn't the answer to fixing problems, and there is no promise it will raise a good kid.

We have dipshit politicians in this country that keep getting elected by dipshit voters, some of whom aren't even citizens.

Period.

if i may, i think strider was commenting on people having kids when they don't have a job, either parent, and going on welfare .....

it happens here, too. they actually get pretty good money to do it, and some stay on welfare for years and years, and this is what their kids see as normal....

we need ROLE MODELS!

edited to add :

please don't think i'm ignoring you, it's sunday morning 5.30 am here, which means i have to go to work now....

talk soon xo

[planted]

if i may, i think strider was commenting on people having kids when they don't have a job, either parent, and going on welfare .....

it happens here, too. they actually get pretty good money to do it, and some stay on welfare for years and years, and this is what their kids see as normal....

we need ROLE MODELS!

edited to add :

please don't think i'm ignoring you, it's sunday morning 5.30 am here, which means i have to go to work now....

talk soon xo

Good heavens, why would I think you were ignoring me?

Not at all, my dear...

Have a good day at work.

xo

[Sagittarius Rising]

SR, ya know what, nevermind. Thanks for the discussion, though.

Good grief.

Good grief indeed, it's rather difficult to keep track to all the various "bias" in this discussion. Though the fact still remains, what exactly was the President to say in this circumstance? Is he bound to respond to every situation which results in murder by one against another? You do realize one of these gangstas was white don't you?

Further Steve, I actually don't believe in the hate crime statute on principal. How can killing another not be a hate crime? Singling out a murder simply because a white guy killed a black guy is silly to me. I don't really care why some guy kills another guy, I only care that he killed another guy. He obviously hated him for some reason or was bored and decided to shoot someone in Reno just to watch them die. Who gives a shit, dead is dead. The dead guy don't care why he is dead, he just knows it sucks to be dead.

I also, believe it or not since I consider myself a progressive, agree with Striders post 100%. Call me a Nazi or a Commie I really don't care, but I too believe parenting should be a privelage and not a right. Of course the problem comes in when you try to figure out who determines who is fit and who is not, though I would keep it simple, follow Striders ideas and add a few of my own such as: If you go on the welfare and have a child, should you get pregnant that child is to be taken by the state or all welfare benefits suspended. Any man who does not pay child support goes straight to jail and is made a slave of the state until all back monies are paid in full.

You see, I believe in freedom but that freedom must be earned through deed and action, not given as right. Some freedoms yes, but others such as parenting, no.

[pottedplant]

This is scary to me. We did have a welfare to work program in place, but Obama suspended the work requirement. Some states do jail fathers if they do not pay child support.

I don't know, but all this is very scary to me. With any power you give the government, 1,000 times more abuse by the government will ensue.

Give them an inch and they will take a million miles. OMG, I wish you all would consider this.

I agree Sag, any brutal act is a hate crime. The hate crime law was passed to add extra time onto a sentence if the crime was against a person

due to their status, i.e., race, gender, etc. It hasn't stopped a thing and is ridiculous on its face.

And Steve, I said we were "considered" a Shining City on a Hill." Not that we were, but many people come here to get out of the shit hole countries they live in. Only problem, they are turning where they live here into the same kind of shitholes. Not all of them, but many of them.

[Anjin-san]

Though the fact still remains, what exactly was the President to say in this circumstance?

Do his job?

[JP78]

the australian guy calling for the boycott is a conservative.

[pottedplant]

This is a quick and dirty synopsis of the famous Buck v Bell, Sup.Ct. 1927. The opinion was written by Progressive Judge, Oliver Wendell Holmes. The facts alleged in the case were later determined to be a fraud, but the case has never been overturned and is still good law. The point I am trying to make here is that once the government, either state of federal, has the power to determine the fitness of a citizen to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, bad things can happen. You brought up the point, Sag, about who would determine the fitness of an individual to be a parent - well, this case shows how far TPTB can go in their determination to stop reproduction. Be careful what you wish for.



Facts of the Case

Carrie Buck was a feeble minded woman who was committed to a state mental institution. Her condition had been present in her family for the last three generations. A Virginia law allowed for the sexual sterilization of inmates of institutions to promote the "health of the patient and the welfare of society." Before the procedure could be performed, however, a hearing was required to determine whether or not the operation was a wise thing to do.

Question

Did the Virginia statute which authorized sterilization deny Buck the right to due process of the law and the equal protection of the laws as protected by the Fourteenth Amendment?

Conclusion

The Court found that the statute did not violate the Constitution. Justice Holmes made clear that Buck's challenge was not upon the medical procedure involved but on the process of the substantive law. Since sterilization could not occur until a proper hearing had occurred (at which the patient and a guardian could be present) and after the Circuit Court of the County and the Supreme Court of Appeals had reviewed the case, if so requested by the patient. Only after "months of observation" could the operation take place. That was enough to satisfy the Court that there was no Constitutional violation. Citing the best interests of the state, Justice Holmes affirmed the value of a law like Virginia's in order to prevent the nation from "being swamped with incompetence . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough." Or three generations of "thugs." Maybe.

[JP78]

maybe women who can't show financial and other means to take care of a child should be forced to get an abortion . the state can pay for the abortion as it would be a lot cheaper than paying for a kid .

[pottedplant]

Is this what we have come to? Forced abortions, like in China. Can't we do better than this? Did you read the above case, it is the same thing. Please don't think like this, we are better, or are supposed to be anyway, than this. First the welfare mothers, then anyone else "they" don't want around.

[JP78]

Is this what we have come to? Forced abortions, like in China. Can't we do better than this? Did you read the above case, it is the same thing. Please don't think like this, we are better, or are supposed to be anyway, than this. First the welfare mothers, then anyone else "they" don't want around.

i wasn't agreeing to it. it was kind of sarcasm but that is pretty much what we would have to do if we try to control who can have kids.

but even then i believe the columbine killers, sandy hook shooter, the guy who shot up the theater all came from pretty well to do families financially.

[pottedplant]

Yes, I think you are right about the mass murderers you mentioned. We have a moral corruption running through the culture. I don't think a totalitarian government would exactly do the trick, do you? Who knows who might act contrary to the "rules" imposed. It could be Led Zeppelin fans. Your thought about abortion controlling who could have kids is not far off the mark, especially if administered by the government.

[Sagittarius Rising]

I know what you are saying that is why I know it would never work. Anyone with that kind of control will most likely take it to the next level, that is Eugenics which is what the above case law was somewhat inferring. Eugenics was all the craze from the 1900's - 1940's until a certain someone actually put it into wide spread practice which completely killed the movement.

I like to believe if I were dictator I would be a benevolent dictator like the great Cincinnatus and become a philosopher-king who would always do the right thing. Unfortunately Cincinnatus was one in a billion and even I fear if I had such power I might abuse it. What starts out as a good idea can quickly mutate into something malevolent. One day its sterilizing crack addicts who abuse their kids. Next, its the convicted burglar. Than its the "undesirables" whatever that may be.

Until we evolve as a species we must live with the shit as we strive to rise above it, anything else, history proves will only have us descend into the abyss.

[JP78]

You consider yourself a progressive, but based on your posts, particularly the one above, your idea of freedom is nothing more than tried and true totalitarianism. Last time I checked I was born a free and sovereign entity and as such I don't need to earn my freedom from the state/society through any deed or action, I simply need to live my life in accordance with the law(s). Nowadays the government can't even keep the roads paved properly yet you feel they should be fully empowered to determine who can procreate? Ho-lee shit!

what if someone is on welfare and lets say they have 3 kids already. should we force abortion after the 3rd or some other number of kids ?

[Whoopie Cat]

Will you all please get off your soap boxes, stop your comparisons, your political views, your gun right beliefs, your black versus whites and have the decency and the dignity to focus on the life and memorial of Christopher Lane!!!!!

It's not about Zimmerman/Martin, it's not about which political party you favour, nor how many kids your citizens should be allowed to have and it's not about whether you believe it's your right to have five thousand friggin guns hidden under your bed.

Just for once .... get the fuck over yourselves!!!!!!

Please ......... Stand quietly at Christopher Lane's graveside as this man is buried.

"THE girlfriend of murdered Australian baseball player Chris Lane has joined his family for an emotional tribute at the club where his love for the game began.

Sarah Harper stood beside her boyfriend's parents on the pitch at Essendon Baseball Club as hundreds of people gathered to honour the 22-year-old who was gunned down in Duncan, Oklahoma, more than a week ago.

Ms Harper, who accompanied her boyfriend's body back from the US yesterday, was supported by her own parents and her brother.

The families stood together with members of Mr Lane's former baseball team for the release of balloons as the Australian and American national anthems rang out across the ground.

Speaking after the ceremony, Mr Lane said the family had been humbled by the support both here and overseas."

Read more here :-

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/sarah-harper-joins-christopher-lanes-family-for-emotional-memorial/story-fni0fee2-1226703631921

[pottedplant]

Thanks Woopie Cat.

[pottedplant]

Thanks Steve. Sanity has returned. I was just trying to make the point of what the all powerful government can do.

Now back to Chris Lane. His family gets the "Profiles in Courage" award. RIP Chris Lane.

[Whoopie Cat]

Thanks Woopie Cat.

It's not that us Aussie's aren't angry, nor that we don't want answers, or have our own personal opinions about what should and shouldn't be done. This thread, like 90% of every other comment or report i've read and heard from American sources, are focusing on political/gun/black/blah/blah/blah/blaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh. I know some of it is relative, but it feels like this poor man's murder is just a minor point to base yet many more 'bash your head against the wall' rants upon.

[planted]

I have said early on in this thread that under the current title, ALL discussion is appropriate.

If you want to memorialize this young man, then start a thread for that.

The word 'anger' appears in the title.

Get it?

[planted]

The topic of this thread is the "anger" this senseless murder has generated and as such the discourse is quite different from that of a memorial thread, which again this is not.

Thank you

[pottedplant]

I agree with Whoppie Cat in the point she was trying to make. However, these discussions are fruitful, IMO, because they bring out a lot
of anger and then sometimes a consensus, or maybe not. But the discussion goes on and I am happy we have this outlet to voice our opinions, to rant and sometimes to show what we are really made of.

[Whoopie Cat]

The topic of this thread is the "anger" this senseless murder has generated and as such the discourse is quite different from that of a memorial thread, which again this is not.

I have said early on in this thread that under the current title, ALL discussion is appropriate.

If you want to memorialize this young man, then start a thread for that.

The word 'anger' appears in the title.

Get it?

Wow! I'm actually embarrassed at what you both just said

and disgusted!