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gibsonfan159

Nitpicking Page on 3/21/75

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I had to be sure I wasn't mistaken on my view on this show, so I listened again paying close attention to Page. The show is good for 75, but there's no way I'd say his phrasing is as good as the majority of 71, 72 or 73. It definitely has some good moments, but like so much of the post 73 stuff, there are a lot of moments where Page seems to lose his fire when improvising and wander aimlessly a little. Regardless, I still tried to point out the parts that were exceptional as well. I used the matrix version so the articulation would be a little more masked (so the time posts will be off a little depending on which version you listen too).

I don't think he hits one note on the opening run on the Rock and Roll solo, though that part is usually intentionally sloppy (Jimmy Page smear). The rest is ok. Missed notes at 3:21.

Sick Again- 1:54-2:02 strains to hit notes. 4:01-4:05, yikes. 4:26-4:29, straining. 4:44-4:50, straining.

OTHAFA- :16, missed note (He commonly scrogs this part though). The solo- Not necessarily any missed notes, but the phrasing is a nightmare. Doesn't go anywhere until 3:40, then he finally takes off. 4:14-4:19, that signature 1975 lack of articulation where his syncopation is off (sounds like a turkey gobbling because his picking is out of sync with his fret hand). 4:40 on is pretty good. 5:41-5:48, barely survived that last run.

IMTOD- Pretty good.

TSRTS- Not bad. A little sluggish and the solo is lacking some articulation, but not too bad. I've heard worse in 72/73 versions.

Rain Song- Missed note at 4:55, but that's nitpicking. Pretty good version.

Kashmir- It's Kashmir.

No Quarter- Solo- Page gets into a groove on this and his phrasing is good, can't complain too much. Though the end of it has that "kid jamming in his bedroom with his wah pedal" feel. The sweeping pattern he "attempts" at14:47-15:08 sounds a little rough, but it usually does on other versions.

SIBLY- I'd have to nitpick here. Page would have to be braindead to play this song badly.

TUF- This solo is the classic post 73 "You guys jam for a while and I'll run through the same pentatonic lines again".4:07, syncopation issues (gobble, gobble).5:34-50, running out of ideas for phrasing. 6:23-6:33, holy shit, where did this come from? Very nice ending there.

Dazed- 4:31-4:40, syncopation problems. I've noticed whenever he does this he usually switches from a single note lead pattern to a funky, chorded riff until he gets back into it. Which he does here. 5:15-5:25, repetition of a lick which shows he has lost some ability to phrase well, so he just repeats the same three or four note runs.5:35, either his hand gets tired or he runs out of ideas, but he gives up on playing fast for a while. The flamenco-esque lead in to the "Stardust" interlude is really quite perfect. 23:05, some very sloppy lead playing. 25:15-25:50, now that's the phrasing and articulation from the days of old. Should have been playing like this the whole show. 28:00-28:33, not bad. 28:35, I despise this "sweep" lick Page does because not only does he almost never do it cleanly, it's obviously a fall back riff when he just throws in whenever. He uses it in No Quarter as well. 29:28, repetition much? Then straight back to the sweep pattern. That's slightly embarrasing (Bonzo actually sounds like he's throwing in extra patterns to take some attention off Jimmy). 31:50, the band takes off and leaves him. 33:38, disaster. Jimmy ends the song once again trying to improvise whatever he can, although the final few runs are quite nice.

Stairway- This solo is a good blend of fluidity, intensity, and phrasing, so no major complaints. 10:38 sounds a little off though.

Whole Lotta Love- Adequate version. Excellent Crunge with nice funky riffs throughout.

Black Dog- The solo for this song is a perfect meter for Page's playing for a show. It's full of blinding fast blues runs and giant string bends that you have to hit perfect, else it sounds like shit. Starts off a little rough, but not too bad. Good bending. 4:50 is what I think Page does when his hand starts cramping a little. Fortunately Bonzo matches him here and it sounds awesome. Ending runs sound good, pretty smooth sailing thoughout. Which is strange considering how he played earlier in the show.

Communication Breakdown- Not too bad, but he's using a heavy wah effect here. I think it's probably because this is his fastest solo and he needs a little smokescreen.

Heartbreaker- The Heartbreaker solo has always been an intentional "Jamming in my bedroom" solo, so it would be unfair to call it that here. All in all it's an entertaining run, with most parts sounding much more inspired than other solos from the show.

If you guys like this I might "Nitpick" some other shows (even the best ones to highlight Jimmy at his peak), or if you think I'm being way too anal then I'll shut up.

 

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To each his own, but it's a bit like those wikipedia pages where they break down the time signatures and key changes in Beatles songs. Whereas both McCartney and Lennon were essentially illiterate in that regard. 

It's easy to dissect any dish into it's individual ingredients, but it takes a master chef to put them all together and make a great meal with it.

Yeah, Page probably had injuries he was dealing with in 1975. He probably had some of those same injuries during his technical peak in 73, but he pushed through. By 75, he probably had some drug use thrown in there, and probably some heavy amounts of just not being the same type of person concerned with how he performed each night, instead favoring more theatrical showmanship. For better or worse, that's how he evolved.  For the technical guys, it's always been a rite of passage to look at 1975-1980 Page as an opportunity to pounce on him as being "not that good, after all".  That's part of what gave birth to all of those 80's shredders who valued their technical skills over everything else.  

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"I had to be sure I wasn't mistaken on my view on this show, so I listened again paying close attention to Page."

Congratulations! You just proved to yourself that your right.:D:D:D

In all seriousness now. I love Seattle '75 and gives no fucks about your self affirming opinions on the performance because its nonsense. 

Suggestions: get a girlfriend, a job, or don't listen to Zeppelin post '73.

B)

 

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I just remembered you are the guy who posted that Southampton 1973 was the greatest bootleg ever, so it is apparent we hear differently and are not going to agree. I wouldn't put Southampton '73 in my top 10 and definitely rate  Seattle 3.21.75 above Southampton '73.

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1 minute ago, Strider said:

I just remembered you are the guy who posted that Southampton 1973 was the greatest bootleg ever, so it is apparent we hear differently and are not going to agree. I wouldn't put Southampton '73 in my top 10 and definitely rate  Seattle 3.21.75 above Southampton '73.

And I also said the reason was a combination of the sound, the set list, and the overall good performance. I never said Page played flawless. Do you want me to nitpick South Hampton and compare?

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2 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

And I also said the reason was a combination of the sound, the set list, and the overall good performance. I never said Page played flawless. Do you want me to nitpick South Hampton and compare?

Please don't. 😏

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13 minutes ago, blindwillie127 said:

"I had to be sure I wasn't mistaken on my view on this show, so I listened again paying close attention to Page."

Congratulations! You just proved to yourself that your right.:D:D:D

In all seriousness now. I love Seattle '75 and gives no fucks about your self affirming opinions on the performance because its nonsense. 

Suggestions: get a girlfriend, a job, or don't listen to Zeppelin post '73.

B)

 

I apologize for inflicting such grandiose butthurt on you.

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As much as I love Jimmy, he is the only guitar hero who declined that fast that I know of. I mean he declined starting at 30 years of age when other players reach their peak. Nothing against him, but I think he became too lazy and drugs didn't do him any good.

Bonzo took another route and became even more creative and technical in later years.

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46 minutes ago, the-ocean87 said:

As much as I love Jimmy, he is the only guitar hero who declined that fast that I know of. I mean he declined starting at 30 years of age when other players reach their peak. Nothing against him, but I think he became too lazy and drugs didn't do him any good.

Bonzo took another route and became even more creative and technical in later years.

As the man once said, "The flame that burns twice as bright, burns half as long".   

Hendrix, Clapton, Beck, Iommi, Blackmore, Kossoff, Green, Gilmour....every single one of them played shorter concerts, with far less extended solo guitar work involved. 

In the case of Hendrix, even his soloing was done in short bursts, and his concerts were still relatively short, and oftentimes erratic.

Page was doing 20 minute solos, multiple times throughout 2-3 hour concerts, for 5 years straight. And Page's style was to always improvise, never playing the same thing the same way twice. And Zeppelin toured far more than any of his contemporaries did during the same amount of time, in much more demanding tours playing those massive arenas and auditoriums. Throw in the frenzied way in which Page soloed, with the exageerated bends and all of those articulately picked runs, and it's even more impressive that he lasted as long as he did.  Remember too that, like Plant, Page frequently played through his injuries.

Page vs his contemporaries is like comparing a Football Running Back (who has a career lifespan of 4-5 years) vs a Golfer (who has a career lifespan of 30+ years). 

In the case of Bonham, remember that his drumming likewise included those 20 minute drum solos, and he played non-stop during those same 2-3 hour concerts that Page did. And notice that the moment that Bonham dropped the drum solo (Late 1972 to Europe 1973), his playing suddenly sounded out of this world. Add the drum solo back in for the 1973 tour in May, and he was back to a more measured approach, which he kept through 1975.  1977 was Bonham at his most technical, but remember that he was still only 28-29, which was about the same age that Page was when he peaked (72-73).  

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1 hour ago, the-ocean87 said:

As much as I love Jimmy, he is the only guitar hero who declined that fast that I know of. I mean he declined starting at 30 years of age when other players reach their peak. Nothing against him, but I think he became too lazy and drugs didn't do him any good.

Bonzo took another route and became even more creative and technical in later years.

Nope, Bolin gets the prize there as does Clapton and, gasp, Van Halen. Its called drugs. Some break free, others don't. Also, everyone gets on Page for 77' - 83', a lousy 6 year period. Before that he was damn good, after that he was damn good, and by 1998 he had not only hit his peak but truly became one of the greatest live players bar none.

When people dis Page for a six year shit-run, I ask them how they would like to be judged for the rest of their lives based on a singular period of their life. If that were the case, 80% of church fathers such as Thomas Aquanias would be considered gluttonous, lascivious scumbags.

But of course no one mentioned Bolin, one of the greatest fusion guitarists who turned to absolute shit before passing away. Or Clapton having to actually stop playing for a period of time because of his addictions. Or how about good old Eddie Van Halen? When he drank he could not play period, and that was quite often in the 80's and even into part of the 90's. I would take Page at Tempe 77' or White Summer 80' over EVH playing during the majority of the 1984' tour...he was THAT bad.

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The main difference is that after Clapton, etc came out of their drug period, they recaptured if not bettered their earlier form.

For me Page never recaptured his 68-73 form. The main thing that went was his fluency.

Some will argue that by the second Page/Plant tour in 1998 he was even better, but I disagree. Watch the B&W footage on the 2003 DVD or RAH or TSRTS and tell me he's as good as that?

The debate for me is really WHY he didn't recapture his form, rather than IF.

There's countless theories on this forum, including lack of practice/live playing, an injured finger, stage fright/nerves, herion being replaced with booze and coke, etc.

It's probably a combination of several of these factors.  

Which leads us to the point now, where he won't even play the instrument live. Sad stuff.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

Some will argue that by the second Page/Plant tour in 1998 he was even better, but I disagree. Watch the B&W footage on the 2003 DVD or RAH or TSRTS and tell me he's as good as that?

He was absolutely incredible in 98. I do actually think he was as good. Not as fast. But the emotion and feeling in his playing.....wow! Check out NQ from Cologne 98. 

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4 hours ago, Boleskinner said:

The main difference is that after Clapton, etc came out of their drug period, they recaptured if not bettered their earlier form.

For me Page never recaptured his 68-73 form. The main thing that went was his fluency.

Some will argue that by the second Page/Plant tour in 1998 he was even better, but I disagree. Watch the B&W footage on the 2003 DVD or RAH or TSRTS and tell me he's as good as that?

The debate for me is really WHY he didn't recapture his form, rather than IF.

There's countless theories on this forum, including lack of practice/live playing, an injured finger, stage fright/nerves, herion being replaced with booze and coke, etc.

It's probably a combination of several of these factors.  

Which leads us to the point now, where he won't even play the instrument live. Sad stuff.

 

 

Yes, he is not only as good but much better IMO. As I mentioned, he was FASTER back in the day but even on his best days he was no where near as emotive, deep, or even as creative during long extended solos as he was 96' - 2001'. In fact, I have a DVD of Page Plant at the Meadowlands I believe in 95' and I would even argue he was better there than in 73'. He does this long guitar solo with Porl Thompson where they go back and forth playing off each other for about 10 minutes and Page is god damned brilliant.

So yes, IMO he actually got better once he kicked his demons. Kinda like Beck actually. Beck stopped using a pick and it took his playing to a whole new level as a result. He was not as fast as he was during Blow by Blow but his tone, depth, and phrasing went into a whole new dimension.

I guess if speed is your gold standard then yes, Page was not as fast in 98' as he was in Zeppelin....thank god! Give me emotion and phrasing over speed and rote, unchanging technique any day.

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10 hours ago, pluribus said:

As the man once said, "The flame that burns twice as bright, burns half as long".   

Hendrix, Clapton, Beck, Iommi, Blackmore, Kossoff, Green, Gilmour....every single one of them played shorter concerts, with far less extended solo guitar work involved

In the case of Hendrix, even his soloing was done in short bursts, and his concerts were still relatively short, and oftentimes erratic.

Page was doing 20 minute solos, multiple times throughout 2-3 hour concerts, for 5 years straight. And Page's style was to always improvise, never playing the same thing the same way twice. And Zeppelin toured far more than any of his contemporaries did during the same amount of time, in much more demanding tours playing those massive arenas and auditoriums. Throw in the frenzied way in which Page soloed, with the exageerated bends and all of those articulately picked runs, and it's even more impressive that he lasted as long as he did.  Remember too that, like Plant, Page frequently played through his injuries.

Page vs his contemporaries is like comparing a Football Running Back (who has a career lifespan of 4-5 years) vs a Golfer (who has a career lifespan of 30+ years). 

In the case of Bonham, remember that his drumming likewise included those 20 minute drum solos, and he played non-stop during those same 2-3 hour concerts that Page did. And notice that the moment that Bonham dropped the drum solo (Late 1972 to Europe 1973), his playing suddenly sounded out of this world. Add the drum solo back in for the 1973 tour in May, and he was back to a more measured approach, which he kept through 1975.  1977 was Bonham at his most technical, but remember that he was still only 28-29, which was about the same age that Page was when he peaked (72-73).  

Regarding Blackmore, this is not true. Purple played as much improvisational stuff like Zep did. Of course their concerts were much shorter. But exclude the awful bow solo, theremin and laser stuff and it won't make that much difference at all. And between 1968-1973 Purple toured as much as Zeppelin, if not more (see setlist.fm).

Also I don't get why you think that playing long solos makes you lose your abilities. It's the opposite: The longer you play, the better you get. I can say that from my own experience.

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10 hours ago, IpMan said:

Nope, Bolin gets the prize there as does Clapton and, gasp, Van Halen. Its called drugs. Some break free, others don't. Also, everyone gets on Page for 77' - 83', a lousy 6 year period. Before that he was damn good, after that he was damn good, and by 1998 he had not only hit his peak but truly became one of the greatest live players bar none.

When people dis Page for a six year shit-run, I ask them how they would like to be judged for the rest of their lives based on a singular period of their life. If that were the case, 80% of church fathers such as Thomas Aquanias would be considered gluttonous, lascivious scumbags.

But of course no one mentioned Bolin, one of the greatest fusion guitarists who turned to absolute shit before passing away. Or Clapton having to actually stop playing for a period of time because of his addictions. Or how about good old Eddie Van Halen? When he drank he could not play period, and that was quite often in the 80's and even into part of the 90's. I would take Page at Tempe 77' or White Summer 80' over EVH playing during the majority of the 1984' tour...he was THAT bad.

I don't know why Clapton always gets mentioned. He plays circles around Page these days. Yes he had a bad drug period, but he came out of that stronger than before. Bolin died aged 25 so we don't know how he would've played if he'd become clean. I agree he sounded shit with Purple live. As for Van Halen, I don't know enough about him to judge his live playing in the early days. His playing in recent years however seems fine to me.

There are countless examples of other players who are still great at 70+. Ever heard of Albert Lee, for example? He's 73 but still going strong. Or McLaughlin. Not exactly a player that I like, but he is still playing incredible stuff. Brian May also sounds almost as good as he ever did!

I liked Page's playing during the 1998 tour, but I don't think it came close to his early Zep days. His tone from the 1990s onwards was just not the same anymore. He sounded sensitive and lacked power IMO. The best example is the "Live at the Greek" concert. The other guitar players sound better than him on that record.

Page retired from being a musician in 2000. Unfortunately he is only a hobby musician these days. It seems he lost his passion for the guitar unlike his contemporaries. I never understood why he didn't get anything together since 1980 that REALLY kicked ass.

Edited by the-ocean87

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6 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

II liked Page's playing during the 1998 tour, but I don't think it came close to his early Zep days. His tone from the 1990s onwards was just not the same anymore. He sounded sensitive and lacked power IMO. The best example is the "Live at the Greek" concert. The other guitar players sound better than him on that record.

 

This is just a ridiculous comment opinions aside. Did you attend the P&P shows in 95', 96', or 98'? I did, and I have a few DVD's as well and your claims about lack of power, tone, and the Live at the Greek show just make no sense to me. 

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7 hours ago, the-ocean87 said:

Regarding Blackmore, this is not true. Purple played as much improvisational stuff like Zep did. Of course their concerts were much shorter. But exclude the awful bow solo, theremin and laser stuff and it won't make that much difference at all. And between 1968-1973 Purple toured as much as Zeppelin, if not more (see setlist.fm).

Also I don't get why you think that playing long solos makes you lose your abilities. It's the opposite: The longer you play, the better you get. I can say that from my own experience.

"The longer you play, the better you get" is true when you talk about someone learning an instrument, or working out something that was once difficult for them to play, or breaking into another level of proficiency.  Page himself got better the longer that Zeppelin were on the road from 1968-1973. But there is a limit in how much the body can take. Tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, and sprained ligaments are all very real things that happen to many players, even players with good technique. Page was already complaining about muscle pain in 1973. Having a Les Paul down by his knees, when everyone else had their guitar up at their chest level certainly didn't help Page either. Nor did playing 3 hour concerts every night for as many years as he did.

Regarding Blackmore vs Page, we all have our favorites, but a 9 minute solo from Blackmore, filled with feedback and whammy bar dive bombs, vs a 20 minute articulated solo from Page at three times the tempo is no contest.  I like Deep Purple as much as the next person, but Blackmore is more in the camp of post-Hendrix blues riffing, with isolated bursts of soloing and then back to the song.  Same goes for Iommi. They both played, and still play very well, but even at their best they couldn't hold a candle to Page at his peak.  Page was a true expressionist at the guitar, which is why 10-20 minutes of Page soloing is still so captivating. 

Blackmore:

Page:

 

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Blackmore at his peak couldn't hold a candle to Page at his peak ? now thats funny

Some of his work from the mid to late 70s is spectacular, The solos from Catch the Rainbow are out of this world, while I love Page I cannot agree with that comment.

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2 hours ago, pluribus said:

"The longer you play, the better you get" is true when you talk about someone learning an instrument, or working out something that was once difficult for them to play, or breaking into another level of proficiency.  Page himself got better the longer that Zeppelin were on the road from 1968-1973. But there is a limit in how much the body can take. Tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, and sprained ligaments are all very real things that happen to many players, even players with good technique. Page was already complaining about muscle pain in 1973. Having a Les Paul down by his knees, when everyone else had their guitar up at their chest level certainly didn't help Page either. Nor did playing 3 hour concerts every night for as many years as he did.

Regarding Blackmore vs Page, we all have our favorites, but a 9 minute solo from Blackmore, filled with feedback and whammy bar dive bombs, vs a 20 minute articulated solo from Page at three times the tempo is no contest.  I like Deep Purple as much as the next person, but Blackmore is more in the camp of post-Hendrix blues riffing, with isolated bursts of soloing and then back to the song.  Same goes for Iommi. They both played, and still play very well, but even at their best they couldn't hold a candle to Page at his peak.  Page was a true expressionist at the guitar, which is why 10-20 minutes of Page soloing is still so captivating.

 

I thought the same 10 years ago.

You picked the worst example of Blackmore. Check this from 1993, Solo starting at 4:10. He was a beast! Light years ahead of Page, this is not even a contest. Blackmore owns Jimmy in soloing, while Page is better at giving colour to a song (chords and all).  Blackmore reached his technical peak in the 90s. Check out his Rainbow concert from 1995 in Düsseldorf.

 

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2 hours ago, pluribus said:

"The longer you play, the better you get" is true when you talk about someone learning an instrument, or working out something that was once difficult for them to play, or breaking into another level of proficiency.  Page himself got better the longer that Zeppelin were on the road from 1968-1973. But there is a limit in how much the body can take. Tendonitis, carpal tunnel syndrome, arthritis, and sprained ligaments are all very real things that happen to many players, even players with good technique. Page was already complaining about muscle pain in 1973. Having a Les Paul down by his knees, when everyone else had their guitar up at their chest level certainly didn't help Page either. Nor did playing 3 hour concerts every night for as many years as he did.

After 1970 Page didn't play more than 80 concerts a year with Zep, which is not that much for a pro musician and compared to other artists. Your post sounds like an excuse for his lack of practicing. He seemed to prefer drinking Jack Daniels rather than practicing the guitar. Of course it was up to him to decide what he'd do. But please don't make excuses like "3 hour concerts killed his physique". That's ridiculous.

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I stand by my point. Page at his technical peak was on a different level. Speed on its own does not equal quality. The 80s proved that.  You had people playing to metronomes to go faster faster faster, and legions of hairmetal guys mastering their "precision" vibrato. And all that faux-Paganini stuff that got started by people like Blackmore and Uli Jon Roth and taken on by Vai and Yngwie.  What happened with guitar playing in the 80s was the worst. Save for a handful of players, there was no soul in that music. 

Yet you had a million different shredders who would tell themselves "My bends are way better than xxx, so I guess must be better than he was."  Page is a frequent target, because he reached heights that most of his contemporaries didn't, and his decline was on full display for people to pick apart. Just like this thread. His touring schedule, his playing style, and the length of Zeppelin concerts absolutely played a part.  He gave interviews in 1973 complaining about tendonitis. That's on him for deciding to keep playing through that, and for whatever happened to him with drugs and his own lack of interest as time wore on. That happens to plenty of players. 

I like Blackmore's early Deep Purple stuff, but I hear solos like the above and it just sounds like the same thing a million different guys do. Mindless noodling.

 

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4 hours ago, IpMan said:

This is just a ridiculous comment opinions aside. Did you attend the P&P shows in 95', 96', or 98'? I did, and I have a few DVD's as well and your claims about lack of power, tone, and the Live at the Greek show just make no sense to me. 

Well I guess it's subjective what sound you like or not, so my post makes perfect sense.

I didn't attend these shows, but I have watched many concerts from that period and listened to bootlegs. It's just my opinion whether you like it or not.

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3 minutes ago, pluribus said:

I stand by my point. Page at his technical peak was on a different level. Speed on its own does not equal quality. The 80s proved that.  You had people playing to metronomes to go faster faster faster, and legions of hairmetal guys mastering their "precision" vibrato. And all that faux-Paganini stuff that got started by people like Blackmore and Uli Jon Roth and taken on by Vai and Yngwie.  What happened with guitar playing in the 80s was the worst. Save for a handful of players, there was no soul in that music. 

Yet you had a million different shredders who would tell themselves "My bends are way better than xxx, so I guess must be better than he was."  Page is a frequent target, because he reached heights that most of his contemporaries didn't, and his decline was on full display for people to pick apart. Just like this thread. His touring schedule, his playing style, and the length of Zeppelin concerts absolutely played a part.  He gave interviews in 1973 complaining about tendonitis. That's on him for deciding to keep playing through that, and for whatever happened to him with drugs and his own lack of interest as time wore on. That happens to plenty of players. 

I like Blackmore's early Deep Purple stuff, but I hear solos like the above and it just sounds like the same thing a million different guys do. Mindless noodling.

 

I'm not trying to change your opinion. As I said before, I thought like you do some years ago but changed my opinion after listening to other guitar players many hours.

Mindless noodling is what Jimmy did on many late Dazed & Confused versions. If you say Blackmore does "mindless noodling" you may be more  of a blues fan. In the 70's he played a more bluesy style. "the same thing a million different guys do"  is just not true. He has his own style and you can hear that it is him after a few seconds of playing. Blackmore is one of the rock players with the best feeling ever and has NOTHING to do with shredders like Malmsteen or the other Sharpnel guys.

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