ZPN Posted September 1, 2009 Share Posted September 1, 2009 Hi all: I just found these on my local retailer's website (released today): *Vanilla Fudge: Out Through the In Door Label: Escapi Music #00202 (originally released in 2007?) Tracks: Immigrant Song Ramble On Trampled Underfoot Dazed and Confused Black Mountain Side Fool in the Rain Babe, I'm Gonna Leave You Dancing Days Moby Dick All of My Love Your Time is Gonna Come *Various Artists-The Roots of Led Zeppelin Label: Great American Music Company #CD-GA-172 Tracks: I Can't Quit You Baby-Otis Rush Gallis Pole-Leadbelly Fixin' to Die Blues-Bukka White I Want Some of Your Pie-Blind Boy Fuller Truckin' Little Woman-Big Bill Broonzy Nobody's Fault But Mine-Blind Willie Johnson Girl I Love, She Got Long Curly Hair-Sleepy John Estes Going Down Slow-Muddy Waters Dance of the Inhabitants of the Palace of King Phillip XIV of Spain-John Fahey Boogie Chillen-John Lee Hooker When the Levee Breaks-Memphis Minnie Shake 'Em On Down-Mississippi Fred McDowell Train Kept A Rollin'-The Scotty McKay Quinted Happenings Ten Years Time Ago-The Yardbirds Psycho Daisies-The Yardbirds Dazed & Confused-Jake Holmes Wow. Reading that list, I can see why Zep was accused of taking credit for other people's songs. Why didn't they just print that they were new arrangements by Jimmy Page & Robert Plant (& JPJ/Bonzo when applicable) and list the original songwriters in the credits? I'm sure the guys who wrote them were not rolling in money and could have used the royalties. Was it because Zep didn't want to bother with getting permission to record them (I don't know if the songs would have been in the Public Domain by that point)? If anyone knows something about this topic, I'd like to hear about it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Wow. Reading that list, I can see why Zep was accused of taking credit for other people's songs. Why didn't they just print that they were new arrangements by Jimmy Page & Robert Plant (& JPJ/Bonzo when applicable) and list the original songwriters in the credits? I'm sure the guys who wrote them were not rolling in money and could have used the royalties. Was it because Zep didn't want to bother with getting permission to record them (I don't know if the songs would have been in the Public Domain by that point)? If anyone knows something about this topic, I'd like to hear about it. Thanks. The credits for Led Zeppelin II were the subject of some debate after the album's release. The prelude to "Bring It One Home" is a cover of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Bring It On Home" and drew comparisons with Willie Dixon's "Bring It On Back". "Whole Lotta Love" contains lyrics that are derivative of Dixon's "You Need Love/Woman You Need Love", though the riff from the song was an original Jimmy Page composition. In the 1970s, Arc Music, the publishing arm of Chess Records, brought a lawsuit against Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement over "Bring It On Home"; the case was settled out of court. Dixon, himself did not benefit until he sued Arc Music to recover his royalties and copyrights. Sixteen years later, Dixon, prompted by his daughter, filed suit against Led Zeppelin over "Whole Lotta Love" and an out-of-court settlement was reached. Later pressings of Led Zeppelin II credit Dixon. Similarly, the "Lemon Song", from the same album, included an adaptation of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor". The band and Chester Burnett reached an out-of-court settlement to give co-credit to the author of the original song. Mrs. Valens, mother of Richie Valens, received a credit pertaining to "Boogie With Stu". Dave Headlam, in an article entitled "Does the song remain the same? Questions of authenticity and identification in the music of Led Zeppelin", suggests that "...in the course of studies on the music of Led Zeppelin, it has become apparent that many songs are compilations of pre-existent material from multiple sources, both acknowledged and unacknowledged." He contends that "...songs like 'Whole Lotta Love' and 'Dazed and Confused' are on the one hand not "authored" by Led Zeppelin, but [rather are] traditional lyrics..." However, noted blues author and producer Robert Palmer states "It is the custom, in blues music, for a singer to borrow verses from contemporary sources, both oral and recorded, add his own tune and/or arrangement, and call the song his own". Folklorist Carl Lindahl, refers to these recycling of lyrics in songs as "floating lyrics". He defines it within the folk-music tradition as "lines that have circulated so long in folk communities that tradition-steeped singers call them instantly to mind and rearrange them constantly, and often unconsciously, to suit their personal and community aesthetics". In an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, Jimmy Page commented on the band's use of classic blues songs: "[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing". In another interview, Page responded to the suggestion that Led Zeppelin used a lot of traditional and blues lyrics and tunes and called them their own: "The thing is they were traditional lyrics and they went back far before a lot of people that one related them to. The riffs we did were totally different, also, from the ones that had come before, apart from something like "You Shook Me" and "I Can't Quit You," which were attributed to Willie Dixon. The thing with "Bring It On Home," Christ, there's only a tiny bit taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's version and we threw that in as a tribute to him. People say, "Oh, 'Bring It On Home' is stolen." Well, there's only a little bit in the song that relates to anything that had gone before it, just the end". Edit: typo corrected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillsy Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 The credits for Led Zeppelin II were the subject of some debate after the album's release. The prelude to "Bring It One Home" is a cover of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Bring It On Home" and drew comparisons with Willie Dixon's "Bring It On Back". "Whole Lotta Love" contains lyrics that are derivative of Dixon's "You Need Love/Woman You Need Love", though the riff from the song was an original Jimmy Page composition. In the 1970s, Arc Music, the publishing arm of Chess Records, brought a lawsuit against Led Zeppelin for copyright infringement over "Bring It On Home"; the case was settled out of court. Dixon, himself did not benefit until he sued Arc Music to recover his royalties and copyrights. Sixteen years later, Dixon, prompted by his daughter, filed suit against Led Zeppelin over "Whole Lotta Love" and an out-of-court settlement was reached. Later pressings of Led Zeppelin II credit Dixon. Similarly, the "Lemon Song", from the same album, included an adaptation of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor". The band and Chester Burnett reached an out-of-court settlement to give co-credit to the author of the original song. Mrs. Valens, mother of Richie Valens, received a credit pertaining to "Black Country Woman". Dave Headlam, in an article entitled "Does the song remain the same? Questions of authenticity and identification in the music of Led Zeppelin", suggests that "...in the course of studies on the music of Led Zeppelin, it has become apparent that many songs are compilations of pre-existent material from multiple sources, both acknowledged and unacknowledged." He contends that "...songs like 'Whole Lotta Love' and 'Dazed and Confused' are on the one hand not "authored" by Led Zeppelin, but [rather are] traditional lyrics..." However, noted blues author and producer Robert Palmer states "It is the custom, in blues music, for a singer to borrow verses from contemporary sources, both oral and recorded, add his own tune and/or arrangement, and call the song his own". Folklorist Carl Lindahl, refers to these recycling of lyrics in songs as "floating lyrics". He defines it within the folk-music tradition as "lines that have circulated so long in folk communities that tradition-steeped singers call them instantly to mind and rearrange them constantly, and often unconsciously, to suit their personal and community aesthetics". In an interview he gave to Guitar World magazine in 1993, Jimmy Page commented on the band's use of classic blues songs: "[A]s far as my end of it goes, I always tried to bring something fresh to anything that I used. I always made sure to come up with some variation. In fact, I think in most cases, you would never know what the original source could be. Maybe not in every case -- but in most cases. So most of the comparisons rest on the lyrics. And Robert was supposed to change the lyrics, and he didn't always do that -- which is what brought on most of the grief. They couldn't get us on the guitar parts of the music, but they nailed us on the lyrics. We did, however, take some liberties, I must say [laughs]. But never mind; we did try to do the right thing". In another interview, Page responded to the suggestion that Led Zeppelin used a lot of traditional and blues lyrics and tunes and called them their own: "The thing is they were traditional lyrics and they went back far before a lot of people that one related them to. The riffs we did were totally different, also, from the ones that had come before, apart from something like "You Shook Me" and "I Can't Quit You," which were attributed to Willie Dixon. The thing with "Bring It On Home," Christ, there's only a tiny bit taken from Sonny Boy Williamson's version and we threw that in as a tribute to him. People say, "Oh, 'Bring It On Home' is stolen." Well, there's only a little bit in the song that relates to anything that had gone before it, just the end". Jimmy is my all time rock n roll hero, i listen to bootleg Zep everyday, Its like religion. BUT, theys no getting away from the fact he's a very naughty messiah indeed. Jake Holmes is a prime example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Mrs. Valens, mother of Richie Valens, received a credit pertaining to "Black Country Woman". I thought Mrs. Valens was credited for "Boogie With Stu", voluntarily, so she could receive royalties? It is a very tired argument and I have heard it too many times. I mean most of those songs sound nothing like Zeppelin's versions, as Jimmy stated. I mean you can hear some of the same chords in Guns N Roses' "Patience" that were in "Stairway", does that mean they were ripping Zep off? Oh yeah, Zep stole "Stairway" from someone else - whatever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I thought Mrs. Valens was credited for "Boogie With Stu", voluntarily, so she could receive royalties? Yes, 'Boogie With Stu'. Voluntarily? Well, yes and no... "Boogie With Stu" on Physical Graffiti is credited to "John Bonham/John Paul Jones/Jimmy Page/Robert Plant/Ian Stewart/Mrs. Valens". "Mrs. Valens" refers to the mother of 1950s singer Ritchie Valens, of "La Bamba" fame. Ritchie Valens wrote and recorded the song "Ooh My Head" in the late-1950s. In Spring 1988, Charles M. Young asked Jimmy Page why Ritchie Valens's mother was credited on the song. PAGE: Yeah. Let's put it this way. "Surfin' USA" by the Beach Boys had a credit for Chuck Berry, didn't it? I think that answers the question. It does in my book anyway. YOUNG: It was from "Ooh My Head," right? PAGE: Yeah. Some of the lyrics from that. Yeah. It appears. In print. Mrs. Valens. YOUNG: So she got her little piece of Physical Graffiti? PAGE: That was the idea right from the outset. We'd heard she'd been ripped off in the past. You should ask Robert these things, because I didn't write the words, did I? At first glance giving Ritchie Valens's mother credit as one of the songwriters seems like a generous thing to do. But if Jimmy Page isn't comfortable answering this question, perhaps it's because the only differences between "Boogie With Stu" and "Ooh My Head" are superficial changes to the lyrics and the instrumentation and studio effects Led Zeppelin and Ian Stewart used in their performance. "Boogie With Stu" is simply a retitled performance of "Ooh, My Head". In a Guitar World interview, Page described it this way, "Curiously enough, the one time we did try to do the right thing, it blew up in our faces. When we were up at Headley Grange recording Physical Graffiti, Ian Stewart [the Rolling Stones' unofficial keyboard player] came by and we started to jam. The jam turned into "Boogie With Stu," which was obviously a variation on "Ooh My Head" by the late Ritchie Valens, which itself was actually a variation of Little Richard's "Ooh My Soul." What we tried to do was give Ritchie's mother credit, because we heard she never received any royalties form any of her son's hits, and Robert did lean on that lyric a bit. So what happens? They tried to sue us for all of the song! We had to say bugger off. [laughs]" So much for fairness. Page's comments reveal just what an afterthought crediting "Mrs. Valens" was. Page is right about one thing, though: Ritchie Valens's "Ooh My Head" is itself largely a copy of Little Richard's song "Ooh My Soul". Little Richard recorded "Ooh My Soul" in 1957, two years before Valens recorded "Ooh My Head." The similarities between these songs strongly suggest that Valens had heard Little Richard's tune, which had peaked at #31 on the pop chart and #15 on the R&B chart. Led Zeppelin certainly wasn't the first group to lift the work of another artist without giving proper credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Yes, 'Boogie With Stu'. Voluntarily? Well, yes and no... "Boogie With Stu" on Physical Graffiti is credited to "John Bonham/John Paul Jones/Jimmy Page/Robert Plant/Ian Stewart/Mrs. Valens". "Mrs. Valens" refers to the mother of 1950s singer Ritchie Valens, of "La Bamba" fame. Ritchie Valens wrote and recorded the song "Ooh My Head" in the late-1950s. In Spring 1988, Charles M. Young asked Jimmy Page why Ritchie Valens's mother was credited on the song. PAGE: Yeah. Let's put it this way. "Surfin' USA" by the Beach Boys had a credit for Chuck Berry, didn't it? I think that answers the question. It does in my book anyway. YOUNG: It was from "Ooh My Head," right? PAGE: Yeah. Some of the lyrics from that. Yeah. It appears. In print. Mrs. Valens. YOUNG: So she got her little piece of Physical Graffiti? PAGE: That was the idea right from the outset. We'd heard she'd been ripped off in the past. You should ask Robert these things, because I didn't write the words, did I? At first glance giving Ritchie Valens's mother credit as one of the songwriters seems like a generous thing to do. But if Jimmy Page isn't comfortable answering this question, perhaps it's because the only differences between "Boogie With Stu" and "Ooh My Head" are superficial changes to the lyrics and the instrumentation and studio effects Led Zeppelin and Ian Stewart used in their performance. "Boogie With Stu" is simply a retitled performance of "Ooh, My Head". In a Guitar World interview, Page described it this way, "Curiously enough, the one time we did try to do the right thing, it blew up in our faces. When we were up at Headley Grange recording Physical Graffiti, Ian Stewart [the Rolling Stones' unofficial keyboard player] came by and we started to jam. The jam turned into "Boogie With Stu," which was obviously a variation on "Ooh My Head" by the late Ritchie Valens, which itself was actually a variation of Little Richard's "Ooh My Soul." What we tried to do was give Ritchie's mother credit, because we heard she never received any royalties form any of her son's hits, and Robert did lean on that lyric a bit. So what happens? They tried to sue us for all of the song! We had to say bugger off. [laughs]" So much for fairness. Page's comments reveal just what an afterthought crediting "Mrs. Valens" was. Page is right about one thing, though: Ritchie Valens's "Ooh My Head" is itself largely a copy of Little Richard's song "Ooh My Soul". Little Richard recorded "Ooh My Soul" in 1957, two years before Valens recorded "Ooh My Head." The similarities between these songs strongly suggest that Valens had heard Little Richard's tune, which had peaked at #31 on the pop chart and #15 on the R&B chart. Led Zeppelin certainly wasn't the first group to lift the work of another artist without giving proper credit. Thank you Mr. Jones, you always have such complete explanations. I knew that they had tried to do the right thing, but I didn't know it went down like that. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgio Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Listening to Little Richard's version now...that man did inspire a lot of rockers....and did not always get credit for his influence! Thanks. OOH MY SOUL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPN Posted September 4, 2009 Author Share Posted September 4, 2009 Thanks guys for the info. Since I've never heard the songs on that Roots of Zeppelin cd (original post), I don't know how similar they are to the Zep songs. So I didn't mean to accuse Zep of anything-I wouldn't have anything to base an accusation on-I'd just read very general info about the band being sued for/accused of using other songs, and saw the song titles on the Roots disc...that's why I was wondering whether they clearly did lift things or if it was more a gray area. In the context of today's music, with all the sampling, it wouldn't be that unusual, though I assume most people who sample riffs or bits of songs list their sources in the credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evster2012 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 "...in the course of studies on the music of Led Zeppelin, it has become apparent that many songs are compilations of pre-existent material from multiple sources, both acknowledged and unacknowledged." I think the suggestion that "many songs are compilations of pre-existent material from multiple sources" is a gross overstatement. Admittedly there are some songs that are derivative, but this garbage that Zeppelin made their bones on the backs of others is just plain bullshit. ESPECIALLY in regards to the blues! And let's face it, how many blues songs are actually on Zeppelin's albums? 10? 15? How many studio tracks are there on albums? 85? Hello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 This bullshit about stealing is just that, bullshit. Okay so they didn't credit the originators, big deal. One could say there are more plagiarists within the Blues genre than all of the others put together. This of course is crap too. Listen to ALL the Blues masters and they borrow lyrics and licks from each other. How many songs contain the Terraplane Blues riff? The bottom line is that in 99% of instances the use of someone else's lyrics and music for that matter was a nod or tribute to the originator. People aren't stupid and it is painfully obvious to them when they hear the Blues or whatever and where it came from. It's like the Ice Ice Baby riff which was a direct and overt imitation of Queen and Bowie's Under Pressure. Some"expert" (that's a cross between a has been and a drip under pressure!), claimed that no-one from Vanilla Ice to the executives had EVER heard the song before! Yeah right and the pigs have just submitted their flight plan. The issue about ownership and credit is in the realm of the lawyers and record companies and even they can't get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swandown Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The prelude to "Bring It One Home" is a cover of Sonny Boy Williamson's "Bring It On Home" and drew comparisons with Willie Dixon's "Bring It On Back". Actually there is no such thing as "Bring It On Back" by Willie Dixon. That was an error in a Wikipedia article which was subsequently picked up by other outlets. "Bring It On Back" was the new name that was used to describe the original parts of Zep's "Bring It On Home". This can be seen on the credits of How The West Was Won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Jimmy is my all time rock n roll hero, i listen to bootleg Zep everyday, Its like religion. BUT, theys no getting away from the fact he's a very naughty messiah indeed. Jake Holmes is a prime example... Jake Holmes, Bert Jansch/Black Mountain Side are the two that I do think are a bit naughty(although Dazed does clearly have alot of original parts to it) but I think its telling that they both appeared on the debut album before the money started rolling in. Almost everything after that is either very small lifts, songs that merely sound a bit similar and a few quoted lyics on tracks that are actually based around original riffs. The reason people went after Zep for it and not the dozens of other bands doing the same thing is that they had the money to make it worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillsy Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Jake Holmes, Bert Jansch/Black Mountain Side are the two that I do think are a bit naughty(although Dazed does clearly have alot of original parts to it) but I think its telling that they both appeared on the debut album before the money started rolling in. Almost everything after that is either very small lifts, songs that merely sound a bit similar and a few quoted lyics on tracks that are actually based around original riffs. The reason people went after Zep for it and not the dozens of other bands doing the same thing is that they had the money to make it worthwhile. I think Spirit (Taurus) may have a valid arguement concerning Stairway! Listen, im only playing Devils advocate here!! None of it concerns me in the least to be honest, i think some folks take it a little bit to personal. Fact is Jimmy did pinch things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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