remastered T.S.R.T.S. different?

[crizman]

Maybe it's just me! The remastered c.d's for The Song Remains The Same to me sound very different. Is it possible that JP might have substituted or added bits from other performances from that stand @ M.S.G.? Anyone else hear things differently? I have listened to the old lp's & cd's a million times.

[Jahfin]

Maybe it's just me! The remastered c.d's for The Song Remains The Same to me sound very different. Is it possible that JP might have substituted or added bits from other performances from that stand @ M.S.G.? Anyone else hear things differently? I have listened to the old lp's & cd's a million times.

There's apparently lots of differences. At the time it was released the album was dissected here, song-by-song. To save yourself the trouble of having to dig up those old posts, I suggest reading The Song Remains the Same section of The Garden Tapes website.

[Matjaz1]

Yeah you can learn all of it from The Garden tapes!

May I just point out, that Stairway solo suffers tremendously on the old release from bad mix, it's terrible!

The remixed and remastered solo is from another world, it sounds million times better, it sounds like it should have sounded originally but its' still exactly the same solo, except for a few little fixes,

but ofcourse there are differences in content aswell in some songs on the new realease and most of the songs are not really badly mixed on the old one!

Rock on,

Samo Kodela

Edited September 7, 2011 by Matjaz1

[sixpense]

Maybe it's just me! The remastered c.d's for The Song Remains The Same to me sound very different. Is it possible that JP might have substituted or added bits from other performances from that stand @ M.S.G.? Anyone else hear things differently? I have listened to the old lp's & cd's a million times.

The "Caveman" totally destroyed Bonzo's drum sound and the edits in No Quarter, Dazed and Confuzed and other tracks is simply inexcusable.

Edited September 7, 2011 by sixpense

[crizman]

Wow, just read the garden tapes-Holy Cow! Thanks everyone! I guess I'll put the old cd version back on my ipod! I thought maybe I was crazy.

[Matjaz1]

The "Caveman" totally destroyed Bonzo's drum sound and the edits in No Quarter, Dazed and Confuzed and other tracks is simply inexcusable.

yeah some things are actually better mixed on the old one, but mostly not!

[dazedcat]

There's apparently lots of differences. At the time it was released the album was dissected here, song-by-song. To save yourself the trouble of having to dig up those old posts, I suggest reading The Song Remains the Same section of The Garden Tapes website.

I find it frightening that somebody would actually take the time to do something like this. I got halfway through Rock n Roll and my brain vapor locked. I like the re-issue better than the original release, not sure why but I just do.

It was an interesting read while I lasted though, thanks for the link.

[Gospel Zone]

On the original album release "No Quarter" was a different performance of the song than the one used in the movie.

[ledzepfilm]

^

No Quarter

The later versions of No Quarter, such as those performed on the 1977 tour, contained some of the band's most fascinating and exciting instrumental improvisations. Many of those versions are masterpieces, but some of the eerie quality of the original arrangement was often sacrificed. To hear No Quarter at its most intense and atmospheric, look no further than the 1973 American tour, where it made its live debut.

The version in the original film is made up of three sections, one from each night. The original album version uses material from the first two nights only, but in four different sections.

Film first, with DVD timings in brackets:

1. NTSC 0:30:47-0:33:31, PAL 0:29:33-0:32:11 The opening instrumentals and most of the first verse, up to immediately after "to build a dream for me and you" - 27th.
2. NTSC 0:33:31-0:34:27, PAL 0:32:11-0:33:04 From there to the end of the verse, and the first few bars of Jonesey's solo where he's still playing the main theme - 29th.
3. NTSC 0:34:27-0:41:08, PAL 0:33:04-0:39:29 From the beginning of the keyboard solo proper to the end of the song, but with a rather unpleasant cut in the instrumental section - 28th.

The cut in section 3 is at NTSC 0:35:57, PAL 0:34:31 and results in a loss of 1 minute 34 seconds of music. Presumably the reason for this cut had something to do with fitting in the music around the footage of Jonesey's fantasy sequence, but it's a tragic loss. We miss out on some vital and masterful tension-building, as the guitar joins the keyboard and drums, subtle at first, gradually becoming more prominent, until the signature nine-note motif announces a turning point, after which Pagey will begin to dominate the proceedings. Led Zeppelin could fit a lot of magical brilliance into 1 minute 34 seconds in 1973. Fortunately, all this is intact on the original album. Speaking of which:

1. 00:05-03:27 We start the same as the film, and actually continue for a little longer before the first edit, at the very end of the first verse/chorus - 27th.
2. 03:27-08:56 From Bonzo's crash as Jonesey starts the keyboard solo, through to quite near the end of the instrumental, including the section that was cut from the film - 28th.
3. 08:56-09:51 The last part of the instrumental is easy to spot as being very different from the film. This and the return of the main keyboard theme - 27th.
4. 09:51-12:10 From the return of the vocal, just as Robert sings "Walking side by side with death", to the end of the song, we're back in synch with the film - 28th.

In the film, the first edit is flawless but the second one (at NTSC 0:34:27, PAL 0:33:04) and the cut (at NTSC 0:35:57, PAL 0:34:31) result in slight loss of timing. Nothing too serious, but a little off-putting. On the album, as usual, the edits are virtually unnoticeable. Curiously, though, there are moments towards the end of the track, such as at 10:58 and 11:38, where slightly jumpy sounds from the cymbals give rise to suspicions of cuts or edits that do not actually exist! I really don't know what caused these odd glitches but this whole passage unmistakably matches the recording from the 28th.

The fragments from the 27th, particularly the syncopated, slightly funky section at the end of the instrumental (album, section 3) leave me with an overwhelming desire to hear the complete version from that night. That is unfortunately not possible because, as I'm sure you're sick of me mentioning by now, no boot tape has yet surfaced of the first part of the first night.

So, the two versions on the original 1976 releases had much in common, but also some notable differences, and there's no doubt whatsoever that the album version was vastly superior in both editing tidiness and musical content. A big moment, this, for the new releases, so let's look at them without further ado.

The version on the new DVD is essentially the same as the one in the original film. The same three sections from the three different nights are used, and the cut is still there, as we knew it would be because the visuals could not be altered. There are some minor differences to note, though. Just before Robert enters for the first verse, a very small timing error, in the shape of an extra quarter-beat, has somehow been introduced. There's no change of night or cut here, so it's a bit of a mystery, although synchronisation with the visuals must again be a possible explanation. Jonesey's slightly clumsy entry on the bass pedals later in this verse has been smoothed over a little. The edits between the sections are very similar to the originals, but the cut in the instrumental section, although in the same place, is a bit different. It's cleaner and better-disguised, but the timing is not quite right, and a 9/8 bar turns up instead of the usual 4/4.

We know by now that the new CD usually features the same audio as the new DVD, so it's with some trepidation that we move on to check it out. What we want this time, please, is the same music as on the original album, or something very close to it. Alas, our fears are well-founded. On the new CD, we get exactly the same version as on the new DVD. This means that, instead of the superbly original section from the 27th at the end of the guitar solo, we get (from 07:16 to 08:04) the less inspired gradual winding down and lead-in to the second verse from the 28th. But far worse than that, we get that horrific cut. The devastating loss caused by this cut has already been described above, so there's no need to repeat that sorry tale here. It's difficult to say what's more depressing, the fact that the cut is off-time and makes Bonzo sound as though he can't keep a beat properly, or the fact that it's there at all. Impossible to believe that something as unprofessional as that could be allowed on to a 2007 CD release, when it had been recognised more than thirty years previously that it was nowhere near fit for purpose. Beautifully remastered sound this new version may have, but it's not fit to lick the boots of the version on the original album.

For the record:

• 01:58 small timing anomaly
• 02:39 bass pedal smoothing
• 02:48 switch from 27th to 29th
• 03:43 switch from 29th to 28th
• 05:15 the unmentionable

I do know about where all of the visuals go, thanks to a month of research and synching.

Edited October 4, 2011 by ledzepfilm

[reswati]

The description of NQ looks like an exact copy from the description on The Garden Tapes website.

http://www.thegardentapes.co.uk/tgt7.html

Edited October 4, 2011 by reswati

[ledzepfilm]

It is. Just he said that it was totally from a different night which it isn't.

Edited October 4, 2011 by ledzepfilm

[fenderbass]

The "Caveman" totally destroyed Bonzo's drum sound and the edits in No Quarter, Dazed and Confuzed and other tracks is simply inexcusable.

the newst version of tsrts sounds more up on the high frequecy range against the older version personaly i prefer the elder. it has a much warmer tone and to add to your message i don't like what they did to the drum solo, or no quarter. dazed and confused i can't say anything about yet. i willl have to listen again. the editting is clear and once you have heard those live versions a ceratin way for so long, it's hard to get used to a solo being editted. it changes the whole feel of the song for me. i have bought it, but have only listened once through and i put it back in the box it came in.

[tmtomh]

The new one is both a remix and a remaster; and as noted above and at The Garden Tapes, it also uses pieces of different nights' performances than the old one too.

I think the new one certainly benefits from: (1) increased clarity and separation of instruments; (2) better frequency range; and (3) of course the addition of the six extra songs. At the same time, it is a bit "in your face" and I think there's some extra compression and/or brickwalling in the mastering, making the old one sound more natural, as fenderbass says.

As for specific tracks, my observations are:

- Rock and Roll sounds too anemic on the original; the new remaster is much punchier and really opens the concert much better

- Celebration Day's final minute and a half or so - the guitar solo - were amazing on the original, but the remaster uses an inferior solo from a different night.

- No Quarter is just butchered on the new version. The original is much better.

- Whole Lotta Love's "The Crunge" section a couple of minutes in has been cut out of the new version, and in its wake is a horrible cut/edit that ruins the track. The original is much better.

(There also are differences in Dazed and Confused and Moby Dick - I don't really care about those differences, but some folks are passionate about them and prefer the original versions for that reason.)

A few folks have made fan or combo versions that are really fantastic. Generally, these versions do the following:

- Restore the original versions of Celebration Day, No Quarter, Whole Lotta Love, and Moby Dick

- Repair minor issues with the new version of Dazed

- Put The Ocean at the end as the encore, as it was originally played

- EQ the original tracks to match the remaster ones as closely as possible.

Edited January 3, 2012 by tmtomh

[Cecil.]

the newst version of tsrts sounds more up on the high frequecy range against the older version personaly i prefer the elder. it has a much warmer tone and to add to your message i don't like what they did to the drum solo, or no quarter. dazed and confused i can't say anything about yet. i willl have to listen again. the editting is clear and once you have heard those live versions a ceratin way for so long, it's hard to get used to a solo being editted. it changes the whole feel of the song for me. i have bought it, but have only listened once through and i put it back in the box it came in.

I found it, rather like a old friend who had changed, without being able to spell out the reason why....