Lawsuit over Stairway to Heaven

[reids]

9 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

The point is that you misunderstand copyright law.  California's estate is not claiming monopoly rights over these common chord progressions for time immemorial (and have themselves noted differences between the two songs).  They're claiming P&P were influenced by Taurus in writing STH and failed to properly attribute credit.  So it's completely irrelevant how many other musicians have used those progressions, or if Davey Graham used them back in the 50's, or whether the lawyer is a sleaze bag, etc.  It's also irrelevant whether the case has merit or what Randy California would have thought about it, then or now.  P&P have themselves given a lot of ammunition to the plaintiffs by not being forthright to start, and it could very well come back to haunt them.

Sounds like you just want to argue (bait & troll on the forum for kicks). You asked questions,  then didn’t like the facts presented, historical evidence (ammunition, as you call it) provided in the previous cases Led Zeppelin won each time and are now trying to spin it then try to act like the authority on copyright law. Read up on “How To Win Friends & Influence People” by Dale Carnegie then come back when you can interact in a friendly / non-confrontational manner.

R😎

Edited August 10, 2019 by reids

[Mr. Snrub]

23 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

it's amusing that you ignore the fact that maybe one reason Randy California didn't bring suit during his lifetime is because he lived in poverty and had no means to do so.

This is partly false and partly misleading. The false part is that Randy California had plenty of money in 1971. Also, Randy only owns half of the publishing royalties from "Taurus" -- the other half is owned by Lou Adler, who is one of the richest guys in Hollywood and could easily outspend Jimmy Page.....if he wanted to. Which he doesn't. Because he knows the case is bunk.

The part that is misleading is that there are literally thousands of crappy lawyers on this planet that would have been more than happy to take on California's case on a contingency basis. We know this because that's exactly what ended up happening.

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, Mr. Snrub said:

This is partly false and partly misleading. The false part is that Randy California had plenty of money in 1971. Also, Randy only owns half of the publishing royalties from "Taurus" -- the other half is owned by Lou Adler, who is one of the richest guys in Hollywood and could easily outspend Jimmy Page.....if he wanted to. Which he doesn't. Because he knows the case is bunk.

The part that is misleading is that there are literally thousands of crappy lawyers on this planet that would have been more than happy to take on California's case on a contingency basis. We know this because that's exactly what ended up happening.

LOL, as if you have any idea how much money California had in 1971 or any other year, or what Lou Adler thinks about this case.  Just another fanboy who doesn't understand copyright law, and what's being claimed in the suit.  BTW, as far as any suggestion that Randy California didn't see any problems here, there's this interview:

http://turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/

[Mr. Snrub]

1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

LOL, as if you have any idea how much money California had in 1971 or any other year, or what Lou Adler thinks about this case.  Just another fanboy who doesn't understand copyright law, and what's being claimed in the suit.  BTW, as far as any suggestion that Randy California didn't see any problems here, there's this interview:

http://turnmeondeadman.com/randy-californias-thoughts-on-stairway-to-heaven/

There are many undeserving people who wrongfully claim that they could have won a lawsuit if only they had enough money to hire a lawyer. Apparently these people think that they can fool readers who are unaware of the concept of "works on contingency no money down".

But the reality is that Randy California and his estate had no case. Not in 1971, not in 1997, not in 2016, and not now. Deep down he knew that the 3 similar notes were not stolen, which is why he never sued -- and it also explains why he was mostly quiet on the topic for most of his life.

Lou Adler is one of the most financially savvy guys in the business -- if he thought he could get a piece of "Stairway", he absolutely would have done it. 

I'm well aware of what's claimed in the suit. Or, rather, I'm well aware of what Francis Malfoy attempted to claim -- only to have the judge throw out 99% of it. Such as his claim that Randy California gave guitar lessons to Jimmy Page. Or his claim that Spirit played "Taurus" every night on tour. Those two claims were debunked so fast that he didn't even attempt to bring them up when questioning Jimmy.

If the case actually gets to a retrial, the only part that will significantly change is that the jury will get to hear Spirit's original recording of "Taurus". But that's not as big of a win as you might think it is -- because the original recording can only be used to determine if Page and Plant had "access" to the song. It can't be used to determine if the songs are similar. So it's basically a moot point. (The original jury already agreed that Page and Plant had access to the song.)

[reids]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Snrub said:

There are many undeserving people who wrongfully claim that they could have won a lawsuit if only they had enough money to hire a lawyer. Apparently these people think that they can fool readers who are unaware of the concept of "works on contingency no money down".

But the reality is that Randy California and his estate had no case. Not in 1971, not in 1997, not in 2016, and not now. Deep down he knew that the 3 similar notes were not stolen, which is why he never sued -- and it also explains why he was mostly quiet on the topic for most of his life.

Lou Adler is one of the most financially savvy guys in the business -- if he thought he could get a piece of "Stairway", he absolutely would have done it. 

I'm well aware of what's claimed in the suit. Or, rather, I'm well aware of what Francis Malfoy attempted to claim -- only to have the judge throw out 99% of it. Such as his claim that Randy California gave guitar lessons to Jimmy Page. Or his claim that Spirit played "Taurus" every night on tour. Those two claims were debunked so fast that he didn't even attempt to bring them up when questioning Jimmy.

If the case actually gets to a retrial, the only part that will significantly change is that the jury will get to hear Spirit's original recording of "Taurus". But that's not as big of a win as you might think it is -- because the original recording can only be used to determine if Page and Plant had "access" to the song. It can't be used to determine if the songs are similar. So it's basically a moot point. (The original jury already agreed that Page and Plant had access to the song.)

^ Exactly my point earlier. 

Facts are facts and the verdicts are in favor of Page & Plant (Led Zeppelin) each time. 

“The jury noted that while California owned the copyright to "Taurus," and that Led Zeppelin's members had heard the song, they said that "there was no substantial similarity in the extrinsic elements of 'Taurus' and 'Stairway to Heaven'," according to The Hollywood Reporter.

Verdict: The jury made the decision less than half an hour after (they) listened to both songs again.”

Winners: Led Zeppelin 

R😎

[porgie66]

On 8/6/2019 at 2:26 PM, reids said:

Sadly, It’s been like that way too long, yes, but now even the majority of million selling artists/bands from the 60s to current are forced to tour and the majority of people are too fickle / cheap to want to support / buy music (Physical media: cd/vinyl). It’s still the best quality over digital/streaming (over compressed/over modulated audio). The industry knew what they were doing with 360 contracts, making disposable blank media (CD-rs, dvd-r’s) , digital streaming services and now devices like Alexa available for consumers to purchase in the last 20 years to crush physical (cd and vinyl) media sales (eliminating other streams of income / jobs for record store employees, independent record labels to get bought up by the 3 remaining majors (WB, UMG & Sony) ; forcing musicians to tour non-stop). The majority of our younger culture the last 20 years see nothing wrong with illegal downloading (stealing a la Napster, Morpheus, kazaa, bit torrent & Russian sites, etc ) because, yes the industry opened Pandora’s box intentionally  (blank media/ internet) with no regulations and no security in place to stop it.

Now, we have an “entitled “ me generation (majority; not all) of so called consumers, who only care about being a celebrity instead of contributing to society built on one disposable pop /rap/crap song (a la “old town road”) after the other via a tv commercial or on YouTube video from a phone instead of album oriented (or cd; digital) quality rock n roll / classic rock as the main culture changing thing like the days of The Beatles, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, etc. The bio pic appears to be the current or last saving grace for keeping bands / music alive like Queen, Elvis, Elton John, etc.

As a music educator and musician, I work six to seven days a week to do my part to help the youth and others rediscover real music, how to play real instruments, so they can (re-)connect  with others instead of being glued to their devices (taking selfies to try to be popular in a fake world) like the rest of the walking dead. 

So, I hope Led Zeppelin (JP, RP, JPJ and those representing JB’s estate) win the lawsuit, countersue and put these opportunistic scumbags out of business once and for all. The future of music / songwriting / publishing royalties , etc are at stake here. 

R😎

Very well said, with you 100%. 

This case is utter opportunistic horseshit. Even if Jimmy was inspired to model the opening of Stairway after Taurus (which is very possible), it's just an arpeggiated chord sequence that has an inherent similarity melodically... for two bars!!  It's not even close to being "based on Taurus".  There's no melody yet at that point!  That's like laying claim to a blues that has an arpeggiated common chordal progression before there's even a lyric or melody line. Nonsense. 

[JohnOsbourne]

7 hours ago, porgie66 said:

Very well said, with you 100%. 

This case is utter opportunistic horseshit. Even if Jimmy was inspired to model the opening of Stairway after Taurus (which is very possible), it's just an arpeggiated chord sequence that has an inherent similarity melodically... for two bars!!  It's not even close to being "based on Taurus".  There's no melody yet at that point!  That's like laying claim to a blues that has an arpeggiated common chordal progression before there's even a lyric or melody line. Nonsense. 

"Even if"?  You understand that would be the entire basis of the copyright violation claim, right?

[JohnOsbourne]

8 hours ago, Mr. Snrub said:

There are many undeserving people who wrongfully claim that they could have won a lawsuit if only they had enough money to hire a lawyer. Apparently these people think that they can fool readers who are unaware of the concept of "works on contingency no money down".

But the reality is that Randy California and his estate had no case. Not in 1971, not in 1997, not in 2016, and not now. Deep down he knew that the 3 similar notes were not stolen, which is why he never sued -- and it also explains why he was mostly quiet on the topic for most of his life.

Lou Adler is one of the most financially savvy guys in the business -- if he thought he could get a piece of "Stairway", he absolutely would have done it. 

I'm well aware of what's claimed in the suit. Or, rather, I'm well aware of what Francis Malfoy attempted to claim -- only to have the judge throw out 99% of it. Such as his claim that Randy California gave guitar lessons to Jimmy Page. Or his claim that Spirit played "Taurus" every night on tour. Those two claims were debunked so fast that he didn't even attempt to bring them up when questioning Jimmy.

If the case actually gets to a retrial, the only part that will significantly change is that the jury will get to hear Spirit's original recording of "Taurus". But that's not as big of a win as you might think it is -- because the original recording can only be used to determine if Page and Plant had "access" to the song. It can't be used to determine if the songs are similar. So it's basically a moot point. (The original jury already agreed that Page and Plant had access to the song.)

Of course Malofiy is throwing out a lot of extraneous shit, hoping it sticks, that's what lawyers do.  And as I've said, his case is indeed weak, it hinges on witnesses who can connect P&P to Spirit's shows etc.  Which probably explains why California didn't pursue the case during his lifetime:  he knew the issue didn't hinge on the formal similarity of the opening notes and that he would need the means to track down witnesses to support the claim that Zeppelin was influenced by Taurus somehow.  Are you aware that "works on contingency no money down" doesn't mean that the evidence to pursue a case magically appears out of thin air?  That someone (e.g. the lawyer or plaintiff) has to actually work to find something, and that this requires real resources up front?

Malofiy only had a real shot at winning because P&P's evasive statements (about their familiarity w/Spirit and their music) made them look very suspicious.  My guess is that if Adler thought THIS would happen, he'd have seen better prospects for winning.  But this is ultimately on Zep's lawyers for not making sure P&P kept their mouths shut.

[Mr. Snrub]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

And as I've said, his case is indeed weak, it hinges on witnesses who can connect P&P to Spirit's shows etc.

No, the case does not hinge on this at all. In fact it has almost nothing to do with connecting P&P to Spirit's shows (considering the fact that "Taurus" was almost never played live by Spirit in 1968-71).

The case hinges on whether the two songs are "substantially similar" or "strikingly similar".

IF the jury concludes that the two songs are substantially similar, THEN the alleged connections between P&P and Spirit MAY come into play. But the 2016 jury ALREADY concluded that P&P did indeed have access to "Taurus" -- and they dismissed the connection as irrelevant.

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Malofiy only had a real shot at winning because P&P's evasive statements (about their familiarity w/Spirit and their music) made them look very suspicious.

Again, this is irrelevant. The original jury more-or-less agreed with you, but still ruled in P&P's favor.

A retrial could actually hurt Malfoy on this particular subject, because P&P did not make an assertive defense against these allegations in the original trial. For example, if it goes to re-trial, then Robert would be able to present witnesses alleging that Robert was NOT in the audience at Spirit's 1970 concert at Mother's Club (and that Spirit did NOT play "Taurus" at that concert); and Jimmy would be able to present witnesses alleging that the copy of Spirit's first album which was discovered in Jimmy's home in 2014 was left there by a friend.

Granted, these may not be the most compelling arguments in the world. But every little thing that casts doubt on Malfoy's theories will make it that much harder to rule in his favor.

[reids]

This 46+ page thread, shows overwhelming evidence for a Led Zeppelin victory in September.  

R😎🎸👍

Edited August 11, 2019 by reids

[reids]

13 hours ago, porgie66 said:

Very well said, with you 100%. 

This case is utter opportunistic horseshit. Even if Jimmy was inspired to model the opening of Stairway after Taurus (which is very possible), it's just an arpeggiated chord sequence that has an inherent similarity melodically... for two bars!!  It's not even close to being "based on Taurus".  There's no melody yet at that point!  That's like laying claim to a blues that has an arpeggiated common chordal progression before there's even a lyric or melody line. Nonsense. 

Thx. As a singer/songwriter/ music educator, it affects me, too, so anything I can do to help others learn how to play real instruments and/or point them in the direction of real music, then I know I’ve done my part. 

Exactly.  It was rather easy to find the previous line cliche examples and overwhelming evidence that “Taurus” was rarely played from 1968-71, never released as a single from their debut album, was actually dropped from their set list, 40+ years had passed and California never pursued legal action during his lifetime, previous court win verdicts after sheet music and audio comparisons were heard by jurors in favor of Led Zeppelin, etc. It should be a landslide victory (Celebration Day) for Led Zeppelin.

Odds:

Malfoy/California Estate win 2-3%*

Led Zeppelin win 97-98%

*may actually be 0%, once Malfoy speaks.

R😎🎸👍

Edited August 11, 2019 by reids

[JohnOsbourne]

30 minutes ago, Mr. Snrub said:

No, the case does not hinge on this at all. In fact it has almost nothing to do with connecting P&P to Spirit's shows (considering the fact that "Taurus" was almost never played live by Spirit in 1968-71).

The case hinges on whether the two songs are "substantially similar" or "strikingly similar".

IF the jury concludes that the two songs are substantially similar, THEN the alleged connections between P&P and Spirit MAY come into play. But the 2016 jury ALREADY concluded that P&P did indeed have access to "Taurus" -- and they dismissed the connection as irrelevant.

Again, this is irrelevant. The original jury more-or-less agreed with you, but still ruled in P&P's favor.

A retrial could actually hurt Malfoy on this particular subject, because P&P did not make an assertive defense against these allegations in the original trial. For example, if it goes to re-trial, then Robert would be able to present witnesses alleging that Robert was NOT in the audience at Spirit's 1970 concert at Mother's Club (and that Spirit did NOT play "Taurus" at that concert); and Jimmy would be able to present witnesses alleging that the copy of Spirit's first album which was discovered in Jimmy's home in 2014 was left there by a friend.

Granted, these may not be the most compelling arguments in the world. But every little thing that casts doubt on Malfoy's theories will make it that much harder to rule in his favor.

Since the jury dismissed the claims of similarity based on in-court performances based on the sheet music, the question of access was neither relevant nor irrelevant, it played no role at that stage.  (BTW, the official "immaculate conception" mythology of STH's origins has to now be put to rest, P&P should have done that from the start.)  The problem now is that in the new trial, the jury will hear the *recorded* versions of the two songs, and only a deaf person could fail to notice the similarities in the beginnings.  Then we come to the question of access, and this is precisely where P&P are weakest, given their evasive (and now refuted) statements about their familiarity with Spirit's music (as well as their own history in these matters, jurors can be instructed to ignore this but it's a reality that at least a few of them will know the background).

You seem to be suggesting that P&P can commit perjury;  yes, I suppose they can do that.  I suspect their lawyers will advise against it, however.

[reids]

The surviving members of Led Zeppelin need to just play this video, considering all of the facts presented in their previous STH related court wins. 

R😎🎸👍

[Mr. Snrub]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

The problem now is that in the new trial, the jury will hear the *recorded* versions of the two songs, and only a deaf person could fail to notice the similarities in the beginnings.  Then we come to the question of access,

No, that's not how the trial will work. The jury will ONLY be permitted to hear Spirit's studio recording of "Taurus" as part of the process of determining if P&P had access to the song. The jury will NOT be permitted to hear "Taurus" to determine if the two songs are similar. The appeals court ruling was very clear on that subject. The 2nd trial -- if it happens -- will still be all about the sheet music.

IF the jury decides that the sheet music is substantially similar to "Stairway", THEN the audio recording of "Taurus" will come into play.

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

You seem to be suggesting that P&P can commit perjury;  yes, I suppose they can do that.  I suspect their lawyers will advise against it, however.

No, I'm not suggesting that P&P can commit perjury. What I'm suggesting is that the publicity from the previous trial could have brought forth some previously-unknown witnesses who could corroborate Plant's testimony (that he did not attend a Spirit concert in 1970) or Page's testimony (that he did not purchase the "Spirit" album which was discovered in his home). There will be no need for Page or Plant to commit perjury.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Mr. Snrub

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, Mr. Snrub said:

No, that's not how the trial will work. The jury will ONLY be permitted to hear Spirit's studio recording of "Taurus" as part of the process of determining if P&P had access to the song. The jury will NOT be permitted to hear "Taurus" to determine if the two songs are similar. The appeals court ruling was very clear on that subject. The 2nd trial -- if it happens -- will still be all about the sheet music.

IF the jury decides that the sheet music is substantially similar to "Stairway", THEN the audio recording of "Taurus" will come into play.

No, I'm not suggesting that P&P can commit perjury. What I'm suggesting is that the publicity from the previous trial could have brought forth some previously-unknown witnesses who could corroborate Plant's testimony (that he did not attend a Spirit concert in 1970) or Page's testimony (that he did not purchase the "Spirit" album which was discovered in his home). There will be no need for Page or Plant to commit perjury.

I stand corrected, the extent to which jurors will hear recordings is limited:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-28/led-zeppelin-to-face-retrial-over-stairway-theft-claims

However, they *will* hear the recording, and it's hard to believe at least some of the jurors won't be influenced by it.  And speculation about what witnesses P&P can provide aside, neither of those claims (esp. Page's) is particularly believable.

[reids]

Since I’m a music educator, in addition to being a musician, I think I better help some learn the difference between Facts and Opinions. It’ll be helpful, as some don’t yet grasp it, even after 46 + pages.

 

R😎

Edited August 12, 2019 by reids

[kirchzep27]

On August 11, 2019 at 3:28 PM, reids said:

The surviving members of Led Zeppelin need to just play this video, considering all of the facts presented in their previous STH related court wins. 

R😎🎸👍

In regards to john paul jones suggesting the recorders and jimmy thinking it would be jpj on keyboards...,i wonder how many stairways they recorded? It certainly would be cool to hear versions with piano, synth in 70, mellotron, or nothing...totally acoustic guitar and bass. 

[PeaceFrogYum]

On 8/10/2019 at 7:01 AM, JohnOsbourne said:

The point is that you misunderstand copyright law.  California's estate is not claiming monopoly rights over these common chord progressions for time immemorial (and have themselves noted differences between the two songs).  They're claiming P&P were influenced by Taurus in writing STH and failed to properly attribute credit.  So it's completely irrelevant how many other musicians have used those progressions, or if Davey Graham used them back in the 50's, or whether the lawyer is a sleaze bag, etc.  It's also irrelevant whether the case has merit or what Randy California would have thought about it, then or now.  P&P have themselves given a lot of ammunition to the plaintiffs by not being forthright to start, and it could very well come back to haunt them.

Trying to prove Taurus influenced STH when other songs such as Cry Me a River by Graham had been out for over a decade. So when does it end> Does Graham's estate then sue California's estate?

To your post about California being in poverty during his lifetime and thus the reason he could no sue, that is just silly. If there were a case lawyers would have been beating down California's door begging to work the case on a contingency basis, you know, like EVERY lawyer does under such circumstance.

Randy California did not sue because he had no case and would have lost. California's Estate decided to sue due to the recent open interpretation of copyright law in regard to music, AND because their jackass lawyer is, get ready for it, working on contingency.

Also, the differences between the songs are staggering, completely different in tone, approach, melody, etc. Taurus starts out meanderingly, sounding like some crappy New Age tune to cure insomnia. Only after almost a full minute does the disputed passage begin. The real irony here is the disputed section sounds very similar to Journey's song Little Girl from a Japanese movie from 1980, but it sounds almost nothing like the opening chords to STH. Strange how California did not sue Journey especially as the similarities are more obvious... oh I know why he did not sue, because: 1. Little Girl was not a hit, and 2. the arpeggio used on both is a standard motif used in countless songs.

Edited August 13, 2019 by PeaceFrogYum

[reids]

9 hours ago, kirchzep27 said:

In regards to john paul jones suggesting the recorders and jimmy thinking it would be jpj on keyboards...,i wonder how many stairways they recorded? It certainly would be cool to hear versions with piano, synth in 70, mellotron, or nothing...totally acoustic guitar and bass. 

What would be a wonderful 50th Anniversary Celebration Day is for once Led Zeppelin win this (ridiculous) case next month, for the 3 surviving members and Jason to get together in the original place they (w/ John R.I.P.) first rehearsed, recorded it and perform it (taped or live via Internet) for the fans all around the world as a victory lap, release it as special record store day vinyl / blu ray audio / digital , etc and donate the proceeds of the release to their charities of choice. 

R😎

Edited August 13, 2019 by reids

[JohnOsbourne]

19 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Trying to prove Taurus influenced STH when other songs such as Cry Me a River by Graham had been out for over a decade. So when does it end> Does Graham's estate then sue California's estate?

To your post about California being in poverty during his lifetime and thus the reason he could no sue, that is just silly. If there were a case lawyers would have been beating down California's door begging to work the case on a contingency basis, you know, like EVERY lawyer does under such circumstance.

Randy California did not sue because he had no case and would have lost. California's Estate decided to sue due to the recent open interpretation of copyright law in regard to music, AND because their jackass lawyer is, get ready for it, working on contingency.

Also, the differences between the songs are staggering, completely different in tone, approach, melody, etc. Taurus starts out meanderingly, sounding like some crappy New Age tune to cure insomnia. Only after almost a full minute does the disputed passage begin. The real irony here is the disputed section sounds very similar to Journey's song Little Girl from a Japanese movie from 1980, but it sounds almost nothing like the opening chords to STH. Strange how California did not sue Journey especially as the similarities are more obvious... oh I know why he did not sue, because: 1. Little Girl was not a hit, and 2. the arpeggio used on both is a standard motif used in countless songs.

Cry Me a River is irrelevant here because Page only recently referred to it as an influence on STH (although he's always cited Graham as an influence on his acoustic playing as a whole), when the whole "immaculate conception" account couldn't be maintained.  (And who cares if Graham's estate sues California's, or California's sues Journey?  More irrelevance.)  The issue concerns Taurus, it's obvious similarities to STH (in the beginning of the songs, it's again irrelevant that STH is a much better song), the connection between Spirit and Zep in the early days, and P&P's evasive (and easily refuted) statements about their familiarity with Spirit and their music (not to mention P&P's not-so-glorious history on these kinds of issues).  Regardless of why California didn't pursue legal matters in his lifetime (too many people here seem to think "contingency basis" means lawyers can summon evidence out of thin air), this case is hardly baseless.  This is not to say it's particularly strong, but it's amusing how many fanboys seem genuinely shocked that such allegations could be made against Zep.  

[porgie66]

2 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Cry Me a River is irrelevant here because Page only recently referred to it as an influence on STH (although he's always cited Graham as an influence on his acoustic playing as a whole), when the whole "immaculate conception" account couldn't be maintained.  (And who cares if Graham's estate sues California's, or California's sues Journey?  More irrelevance.)  The issue concerns Taurus, it's obvious similarities to STH (in the beginning of the songs, it's again irrelevant that STH is a much better song), the connection between Spirit and Zep in the early days, and P&P's evasive (and easily refuted) statements about their familiarity with Spirit and their music (not to mention P&P's not-so-glorious history on these kinds of issues).  Regardless of why California didn't pursue legal matters in his lifetime (too many people here seem to think "contingency basis" means lawyers can summon evidence out of thin air), this case is hardly baseless.  This is not to say it's particularly strong, but it's amusing how many fanboys seem genuinely shocked that such allegations could be made against Zep.  

It may not be baseless, but it's still horseshit. The arpeggio lasts three bars , then resolves to a different chord, similarity over. Also, the arpeggiation of STH has a different sequence of melody notes in the chord progression...a variation on a theme, if you will. STH has so much more substance than just those 3 bars. No melodic or lyric similarity. There are countless examples of similar "similarities" ...bass lines, chord sequences, arpeggios , even riffs that one can connect to other songs and hear a clear influence. It happens !! Great musicians get inspiration and influence from other musicians! That's what's on trial here...how much inspiration or influence is too much? It's not baseless, but it's bullshit IMO and many , many other musicians and listeners opinions as well. 

But, if a jury finally decides that those 3 bars are significantly similar and Stairway couldn't have been a success without the inspiration from the Taurus intro then, fuck me....I will be flabbergasted. 

By that account, Horace Silvers estate should sue Steely Dan for the Rikki Don't Lose That Number intro because it's obviously " significantly similar and inspired" by Silvers Song For My Father. Just one of many examples. 

[Mr. Snrub]

4 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Cry Me a River is irrelevant here because Page only recently referred to it as an influence on STH

"Cry Me A River" is relevant because it's a good illustration of what can't be copyrighted.

Chord arpeggios -- the act of playing each note in a chord -- cannot be copyrighted. Davy Graham knew this, which is why he did not attempt to copyright his original interpretation of "Cry Me A River". I think Randy California knew this as well, which is why he never sued or even threatened to sue.

Randy California did not invent the A-minor chord.  😄

The first jury understood this basic legal concept, and the second jury (if the case even goes to trial) will likely conclude the same thing.

[reids]

13 hours ago, Mr. Snrub said:

"Cry Me A River" is relevant because it's a good illustration of what can't be copyrighted.

Chord arpeggios -- the act of playing each note in a chord -- cannot be copyrighted. Davy Graham knew this, which is why he did not attempt to copyright his original interpretation of "Cry Me A River". I think Randy California knew this as well, which is why he never sued or even threatened to sue.

Randy California did not invent the A-minor chord.  😄

The first jury understood this basic legal concept, and the second jury (if the case even goes to trial) will likely conclude the same thing.

^ Exactly, which is why The Stones “Angie”, U2’s, “Sunday Bloody Sunday” and so many others haven’t been sued for Am line cliches.

Someone is definitely not getting the point of what a line cliche is (46 + pages later and still obtuse).

R😎

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by reids

[SteveZ98]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/ag-barr-s-justice-department-has-whole-lotta-love-led-n1043361

[zeplz71]

12 minutes ago, SteveZ98 said:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/ag-barr-s-justice-department-has-whole-lotta-love-led-n1043361

Love it!