Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

[the chase]

19 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

My point was that if you take away the amazing tuning, monstrous triplets, and addictive grooves, there were drummers (rock drummers) who were just far more skilled when it comes to incorporating the entire kit and varying their accents and phrases. Of course this goes out the door when one says "Bonham only played what was needed". Sure, that makes Charlie Watts better than Bonham. I'll omit Baker considering he came strictly from jazz. Barrie Barlow for one was much more adept to structure. Artimus Pyle accented the beat like nobody's business. Moon is debatable. Do we even have to compare Bonham to Palmer? It would be comparing grooves and muscle to finesse and expertise. This is only touching the surface.

My point is that Bonham's drumming was basic, but extremely impressive. Much like Tony Iommi's guitar playing. It's really in response to anyone who brags about Bonzo's technicality. He just wasn't that technical. Now go ahead and make a statement about groove.

But why would you take anything away? His sound,  power, projection, tone, timing, feel, yes groove and especially his restraint are all part of the package.. not just the triplets... He was a great technician too. Never said he he was the drummer with the greatest technical ability. But he was certainly not a player that other drummers would roll their eyes at. And if they did, they’re stupid. There’s more to it than just flash. 

 Much of his stuff is alot harder to play correctly than it sounds.. I’ve watched incredible drummers struggle with getting his parts right.. Simon Phillips for one butchered the shit out of Stairway To Heaven live more than once.. and he’s an unbelievable drummer.. one of my all time favorites. Some walk in and think it’s going to be easy because they’ve heard it 10,000 times and then they go to play it and it’s just not there.. just ask a great drummer like Phil Collins...

I’d put Bonham’s footwork next to anyone you mentioned. I heard Mike Portnoy play Achilles Last Stand.. another excellent drummer with incredible technique ..  The hands were pretty much right there.. the bass drum work was light.. 

 Barrimore Barlowe is incredible no doubt.John Bonham himself once called him the best drummer to come out of England. But I don’t think he would have been rolling his eyes at Bonham either.. far from it.. Nor would anyone else you mentioned. the eternally bitter Ginger Baker has.. but he doesn’t have much good to say unless it’s Jazz players.. 

done. 

[gibsonfan159]

9 minutes ago, the chase said:

There’s more to it than just flash.

And there's more to it than just triplets and groove. Nobody seems to get that. I'm not even talking about flash. I'm just saying Bonham was pretty mediocre technically. It's fascinating how no one can accept that. 

[the chase]

Just now, gibsonfan159 said:

And there's more to it than just triplets and groove. Nobody seems to get that. I'm not even talking about flash. I'm just saying Bonham was pretty mediocre technically. It's fascinating how no one can accept that. 

 That’s all you got out of my post?  Really? I said all I’m going to say.  

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

10 hours ago, JTM said:

Psst, have you noticed the thread title, I don't think you have..

What's your point?

I get the opinion part, my response was questioning why the guy is here. He clearly has some strong negative opinions, not contraversial, down right negative. Get a dictionary, look both words up and then maybe you will get it. Now, if I'd made a Post and not a Reply, then your reply would make sense. But I didn't, so you don't.

And the post is clearly meant to spark debate. Another point you miss by a mile. So you're 0 for 2.

 

[gibsonfan159]

4 minutes ago, the chase said:

 That’s all you got out of my post?  Really? I said all I’m going to say.  

Oh, I got the rest of it. It's just the same old rhetoric that keeps deterring (and misunderstanding) from my point. 

[tyler19]

Jimmy Page and The Black Crowes Live is a better release than Celebration Day. 

Jimmy has tenfold the guitarist on Live at the Greek as on Celebration Day.

Gorman is a better drummer with Jimmy than Jason Bonham.

Celebration Day should never have been labelled a Led Zeppelin record as it didn't have John Bonham. 

Edited February 10 by tyler19

[the chase]

2 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Oh, I got the rest of it. It's just the same old rhetoric that keeps deterring (and misunderstanding) from my point. 

Nobody understands your point.. give me a break. I get it. I just don’t agree with it. Mediocre technically?  That’s ridiculous.

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

 

14 minutes ago, tyler19 said:

Jimmy Page and The Black Crowes Live is a better release than Celebration Day.

Gorman is a better drummer with Jimmy than Jason Bonham.

Celebration Day should never have been labelled a Led Zeppelin record as it didn't have John Bonham. 

Well said. Whether anyone agees or not, and I haven't read through all the pages (not gonna either) but from what I did see, your's is the first post that is on point. I agree the Black Crowes collaboration was a better release. It very well should be as Jimmy had 2 other guitar tracks backing him up. I wil go further and say WIAWSNB, Celebration Day, IMTOD, Custard Pie, Sick Again were all the best live versions of those songs, Bar None. But again, 2 other guitars playing the backing guitar tracks from the album versions allowed Jimmy his full range of expression, so I am not saying they were a better band, just that if Jimmy played with an ensamble like that all the time, he'd be mentioned more often than Clapton as the greatest of all time. IMHO. But I'm not saying he should, just saying IF.

Don't agreee totaly with the Gorman thing, wasn't that impressed with Gorman's drumming. Michael Lee was the best drummer for Jimmy post Bonham.

I could go either way on Celebration Day. 

 

Edited February 10 by CherrySunburstWorshiper

[tyler19]

Jimmy 

1 minute ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

 

Well said. Whether anyone agees or not, and I haven't read through all the pages (not gonna either) but from what I did see, your's is the first post that is on point. I agree the Black Crowes collaboration was a better release. It very well should be as Jimmy had 2 other guitar tracks backing him up. I wil go further and say WIAWSNB, Celebration Day, IMTOD, Custard Pie, Sick Again were all the best live versions of those songs, Bar None. But again, 2 other guitars playing the backing guitar tracks from the album versions allowed Jimmy his full range of expression, so I am not saying they were a better band, just that if Jimmy played with an ensamble like that all the time, he'd be mentioned more often than Clapton as the greatest of all time. IMHO. But I'm not saying he should, just saying IF.

Don't agreee totaly with the Gorman thing. Michael Lee was the best drummer for Jimmy post Bonham.

I could go either way on Celebration Day. 

 

Jimmy sounds so relaxed on Live at the Greek. A time she sounds very tentative on Celebration Day. Jimmy's tone on LatG is out of this world. Fucker was dialed in.

I've never been a fan of Jason's drumming. He's not bad but he rides the shit out of his Dad's coattails. He has really good pocket and groove but so do a thousand other drummers. I didn't think there was an underlying funk to Michael Lee's playing (hence dumbing down some songs) but like him more Jason. ML supports vocals very nicely and I love his dynamics. He does more than hit hard.

 

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

32 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

And there's more to it than just triplets and groove. Nobody seems to get that. I'm not even talking about flash. I'm just saying Bonham was pretty mediocre technically. It's fascinating how no one can accept that. 

Maybe it's just you...

If you're saying Bonham was all triplets and Groove, then you are wrong. That's not an opinion. You are stating that a person did A and B and nothing else. That is a declarative statement. Now, as my daddy used to say; "The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect".

[tyler19]

2 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Now, as my daddy used to say; "The less a man makes declarative statements, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect".

I like your Daddy.

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

4 minutes ago, tyler19 said:

Jimmy 

Jimmy sounds so relaxed on Live at the Greek. A time she sounds very tentative on Celebration Day. Jimmy's tone on LatG is out of this world. Fucker was dialed in.

I've never been a fan of Jason's drumming. He's not bad but he rides the shit out of his Dad's coattails. He has really good pocket and groove but so do a thousand other drummers. I didn't think there was an underlying funk to Michael Lee's playing (hence dumbing down some songs) but like him more Jason. ML supports vocals very nicely and I love his dynamics. He does more than hit hard.

 

Obviously this is folk lore, but I hear tell the numbers were dumbed down at Plant's insistance. Supposedly he no longer cares for drawn out improvs and opts for, not Album perfect, but close to it versions. Another stipulation in his doing the 02. The book When Giants Walked the Earth claims he also only agreed so he could use the notoriety to plug his upcomming album with Allison Krauss and T Bone Burnete. Canceling rehearsals and forcing jimmy to push back the 02 date. Remeber it was supposed to be in November but he "hurt his pinky" delaying it 6 weeks.

 

[tyler19]

21 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

I will go further and say WIAWSNB, Celebration Day, IMTOD, Custard Pie, Sick Again were all the best live versions of those songs, Bar None.

I'd add Ten Years Gone to that list. I adore the shit out of the 1977 and Knebworth versions but more more for what Jimmy was able to accomplish than finished product. Surprised P&P didn't take this a central song as the additional guitar(s) is truly needed,

Edited February 10 by tyler19
typo, I can't spellcheck for shit

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

Just now, tyler19 said:

I'd add Ten Years Gone to that list. I adore the shit out of the 1977 and Knebworth versions but more more fro what Jimmy was able to accomplish than finished product. Surprised P&P didn't take this a central song as the additional guitar(s) is truly needed,

Oooh, I forgot that one. Good catch.

[SteveAJones]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 1:55 PM, marcio614 said:

Now i want do the comment aboutthe comparison of bonham with jazz drummers, I say that if I could have the skills of any drummer I would surely easily choose Bonham, which if he wanted was easily the most powerful in history and although it did not have a totally technical style but it was not robotic as the jazz drummers because it was totally spontaneous and unpredictable, and had one thing in my opinion superior to all jazz drummers, which may seem contradictory because of its aggressive attitude but the word is class.

I don't disagree that John Bonham is arguably the greatest rock drummer in history, but John himself has cited Gene Krupa as an influence.

 

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

4 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

I don't disagree that John Bonham is arguably the greatest rock drummer in history, but John himself has cited Gene Krupa as an influence.

 

Yeah, but he also cited Carmine Apice...

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

43 minutes ago, the chase said:

Nobody understands your point.. give me a break. I get it. I just don’t agree with it. Mediocre technically?  That’s ridiculous.

Well said.

Edited February 10 by CherrySunburstWorshiper

[SteveAJones]

7 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Yeah, but he also cited Carmine Apice...

Well, Vanilla Fudge (with Carmine Appice on drums) did release five rock albums from 1967-69, three of which made the charts.

 

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

Just now, SteveAJones said:

Well, Vanilla Fudge (with Carmine Appice on drums) did release five rock albums from 1967-69, three of which made the charts.

 

And they supported VF as the opening act on their first U.S. tour.

[the chase]

You know who else cites Carmine Appice as an infuence on John Bonham? Carmine Appice. 😎

Just having fun. He’s great.. true though 

[SteveAJones]

31 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

Obviously this is folk lore, but I hear tell the numbers were dumbed down at Plant's insistance. Supposedly he no longer cares for drawn out improvs and opts for, not Album perfect, but close to it versions. Another stipulation in his doing the 02. The book When Giants Walked the Earth claims he also only agreed so he could use the notoriety to plug his upcomming album with Allison Krauss and T Bone Burnete. Canceling rehearsals and forcing jimmy to push back the 02 date. Remeber it was supposed to be in November but he "hurt his pinky" delaying it 6 weeks.

 

Robert Plant suggested an Ertegun tribute event in England because he was unable to participate in the one being planned for New York in early 2007. His album with Alison Krauss was released Oct 23, 2007 -- several weeks before the 02 concert originally scheduled for November 26th. He didn't need the 02 to plug it, if anything the event overshadowed what would go on to become a Grammy award winning collaboration. The concert was postponed because Jimmy, not Robert, fell on the concrete garden path at his home and broke the tip of his left pinky.

 

2 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

And they supported VF as the opening act on their first U.S. tour.

Carmine Appice discusses that in the clip I posted.

[SteveAJones]

3 minutes ago, the chase said:

You know who else cites Carmine Appice as an infuence on John Bonham? Carmine Appice. 😎

Just having fun. He’s great.. true though 

Yes, Carmine Appice is great -- especially at self-aggrandizement. 😃

 

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

My point was that if you take away the amazing tuning, monstrous triplets, and addictive grooves, there were drummers (rock drummers) who were just far more skilled when it comes to incorporating the entire kit and varying their accents and phrases. Of course this goes out the door when one says "Bonham only played what was needed". Sure, that makes Charlie Watts better than Bonham. I'll omit Baker considering he came strictly from jazz. Barrie Barlow for one was much more adept to structure. Artimus Pyle accented the beat like nobody's business. Moon is debatable. Do we even have to compare Bonham to Palmer? It would be comparing grooves and muscle to finesse and expertise. This is only touching the surface.

My point is that Bonham's drumming was basic, but extremely impressive. Much like Tony Iommi's guitar playing. It's really in response to anyone who brags about Bonzo's technicality. He just wasn't that technical. Now go ahead and make a statement about groove.

Purely subjective except for: What if the skill lies in knowing when part of your kit is immaterial to the song. For instance, I prefer Rat Salad to Moby Dick. But Moby Dick is clearly more technical druming incorporating every bit of a bigger kit. And BTW, most drummers will tell you the symbols are what makes the kit harder. ie; more symbols require more skill than more drums do. But if what you say is correct, Neil Peart is the greatest drummer who's ever lived.

His kit is just that much bigger than anyone else's I've ever seen and he hits every drum on just about every song. Therefore, by your logic, nobody could be better. Are you prepared to say that? I'm not. I like Rush, but I'd take Ginger Baker with a branch and a coffee can over.

3 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

When it comes to replacing tracks on ITTOD, I would replace Carouselambra, which is over 10 minutes long, with Ozone Baby and Darlene.  I think Southbound Saurez is almost a good song but the harmonies on the vocals  turns me off. I do like the way the verse sets up the chorus though and when the chorus comes in, it does satisfy to some extent.

What about Poor Tom. Surely that belongs in the category of "should have been released sooner".

[CherrySunburstWorshiper]

4 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

Yes, Carmine Appice is great -- especially at self-aggrandizement. 😃

 

That's cool. I was just sayin..

I do believe Carmine only because I've heard Jimmy ( or somebody I'm confusing with Jimmy) say the same thing and: why would he lie? I mean, if he were gonna lie he would say "oh, John told me he listened to me every day." not, He told me he heard me do something I can't do and don't remember and probably only did it the one time...

That makes no sense to me.

Edited February 10 by CherrySunburstWorshiper

[Christopher Lees]

3 minutes ago, CherrySunburstWorshiper said:

What about Poor Tom. Surely that belongs in the category of "should have been released sooner".

Never one of my favorites. In 30 something years, I've probably listened to it 5 times. However, I could see swapping it in for Hats Off to Roy Harper.