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Cozy 4ever

Does anyone have any controversial opinions about Zep?

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8 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Go watch a few proper jazz and swing drummers and you'll realize Bonzo did little more than steal their beats and add muscle to them to sound more impressive in the rock world. But on a technical proficiency level, he was a few notches below. I can't make you understand truly sophisticated drumming techniques, but this is true. The "Fool In The Rain"  beat is nothing more than a Purdie shuffle played in a pop context. (What's that? Bonham "borrowed" riffs too?)

Now with that said, you need to understand my original comment. In no way shape or form am I discrediting what Bonzo did and achieved. I'm just saying that I get tired of the fanboys talking about his "complexity" when I know by mind and heart he was only complex to rock fandom. Outside of that, he wouldn't stand a chance.  And yes, he dominated the rock world with amazing grooves, syncopation, and heavy handed technique. But I will always stand by my opinion that despite all that, he was stiff as a board.

I've listened to tons of far more technical and more technically proficient drummers. Many of which are actually stiffer than Bonham. I guess it depends what your definition of stiff is. Stiff to me is unchanging and predictable. Bonham was the literal opposite of that early on from 68-72.

All drummers are influenced by drum beats from one another. They can only be applied within a framework of a song, they don't have melody or the kind of instrumental characteristics of other instruments. The majority of rock drummers all sound the same to me and in my opinion Bonham, Keith Moon and Bill Ward are the only ones that really do anything unusual, unique or unpredictable (generally speaking within a mainstream rock/metal context).

Technicality is overrated. You have to have a balance of feel,groove and technicality when the song calls for it. It also depends what you mean by technical.  I think Bonham is perfectly technical for Led Zeppelin, he just has an unorthodox feel and approach that no other rock drummer has. Maybe if you tried playing his drum parts you'd have a greater understanding or appreciation for what he did? What I mean is maybe you wouldn't get so annoyed by peoples love for him. Bonham makes really hard things sound extremely simple. I've played a lot of death metal songs on drums (which are very intricate) and I still think that generally speaking it's harder to nail what Bonham is doing on numerous tracks.

You know who I do think is an overrated rock drummer? Dave Grohl. Certainly good but he is not that great. His approach is not on the same level as Bonham, Ward, or Moon. That goes without mentioning other drummers I love like Martin Axenrot of Opeth.

 

I definitely know what you're saying, I just think that you're directing your annoyance at the wrong rock drummer. He is hailed for legitimate reasons unlike many other rock drummers who really aren't impressive or unique and tend to use very generic fills. Most of them are just biological timekeepers.

Edited by nemophilist

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I've grown to really dislike Jimmy's suits from 73 onward. I liked his style previous to that far more. I especially liked what he wore at bath.

The suits were too cartoon-ish, almost like something Kiss would've came up with.

 

I also think In Through the Out Door is terrible and that Darlene and Ozone Baby would've been the best tracks on the album next to fool in the rain. Led Zeppelin is the most timeless rock band because of their diversity. But I feel that ITTOD is the total opposite of that as a whole.

Edited by nemophilist

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On January 29, 2019 at 10:07 PM, Cozy 4ever said:

Mine is that I don't even care for Plant very much, and I wish their singer had been Ian Gillan.

I guess this initial post is so fucking ridiculous that nobody bothered responding to it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I'm just saying that I get tired of the fanboys talking about his "complexity" when I know by mind and heart he was only complex to rock fandom. Outside of that, he wouldn't stand a chance.  And yes, he dominated the rock world with amazing grooves, syncopation, and heavy handed technique. But I will always stand by my opinion that despite all that, he was stiff as a board.

This is in a way a silly comment. So all classical music is superior to rock because the music is more demanding, technical and complex? Not just classical, but even country guys can play circles around rock guitar players. Bonham was the best at what he did. Even in techincal aspects he was as good as it gets. He was not taught by a teacher and didn't have all the possibilities of today. No videos for free nonstop, hell not even video tapes to slow down.  And how do you know what Bonham was able to play? Maybe he would've kicked Cobhams ass if he tried jazz instead of rock? Or Buddy Rich? Vinnie Colaiuta? We simply don't know.

2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

But on a technical proficiency level, he was a few notches below. I can't make you understand truly sophisticated drumming techniques, but this is true. The "Fool In The Rain"  beat is nothing more than a Purdie shuffle played in a pop context. (What's that? Bonham "borrowed" riffs too?)

A rock drummer playing this beat was kinda unusual and showed that Bonham was able to learn complex beats and I'm sure he learned it by ear. And yes, the halftime shuffle is complex, even if it sounds simple. I don't know how much you really know about drumming. Reading drummer boards doesn't make you a good judge. Just saying. If you prefer Thomas Lang or Jojo Mayer kinda drummers so be it. Even those technical guys have huge amounts of respect for Bonzo and his beats. Neither can play it the same way as Bonzo though.

Each to their own, but you make your statements kinda invalid if you call everyone who appreciates Bonzos drumming as "fanboys".

 

 

Edited by the-ocean87

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6 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Go watch a few proper jazz and swing drummers and you'll realize Bonzo did little more than steal their beats and add muscle to them to sound more impressive in the rock world. But on a technical proficiency level, he was a few notches below. I can't make you understand truly sophisticated drumming techniques, but this is true. The "Fool In The Rain"  beat is nothing more than a Purdie shuffle played in a pop context. (What's that? Bonham "borrowed" riffs too?)

Now with that said, you need to understand my original comment. In no way shape or form am I discrediting what Bonzo did and achieved. I'm just saying that I get tired of the fanboys talking about his "complexity" when I know by mind and heart he was only complex to rock fandom. Outside of that, he wouldn't stand a chance.  And yes, he dominated the rock world with amazing grooves, syncopation, and heavy handed technique. But I will always stand by my opinion that despite all that, he was stiff as a board.

This we will agree to disagree as I know several jazz drummers who think Bonham a very good drummer who indeed had swing. I am not a drummer (guitar payer for 35 years) and as such I seek out the opinions of actual drummers. As most of my musical peers are jazz players they are a wealth of knowledge. 

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6 hours ago, blindwillie127 said:

I guess this initial post is so fucking ridiculous that nobody bothered responding to it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just that post? Critical analysis and honest opinions are one thing...intentionally stirring the pot is another.  But whatever, it’s not like we haven’t heard this before - just under different names. 

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Here's my controversial opinion: all things considered, I don't think their infamous Live Aid performance was all that bad. Considering how last-minute the thing appeared to be thrown together, considering how wasted Page was and how little Plant gave a fuck, and considering how someone thought it was a good idea to wedge Phil Collins into that mess, well it could have been much, much worse. It's definitely not their finest hour, but to me anyhow, it still looked less sad than The Who's superbowl halftime show.

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Not sure if it's a 'controversial' opinion as such, but I've never heard a live rendition of either 'Whole Lotta Love' or 'Achilles Last Stand' that worked for me, much less equaled the superior studio versions... the strength in those two tracks were how they were produced/mixed, and you just couldn't replicate that onstage.

Again, my own humble opinion, of course.

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6 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Not sure if it's a 'controversial' opinion as such, but I've never heard a live rendition of either 'Whole Lotta Love' or 'Achilles Last Stand' that worked for me, much less equaled the superior studio versions... the strength in those two tracks were how they were produced/mixed, and you just couldn't replicate that onstage.

Again, my own humble opinion, of course.

Or at least not without additional musicians right. WLL live I always loved and thought it just as good as the studio but different. My fav version is still Berlin 1980 as it is really unique. Achilles is a different animal altogether. I like many of the live versions and it is amazing they were able to pull it off to the degree they did knowing Jimmy used 6 different guitar parts in the studio. IMO Zep should have added a second guitarist in 75' as the studio stuff from HOTH on was usually too demanding for just three musicians and a singer to pull off live.

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7 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Not sure if it's a 'controversial' opinion as such, but I've never heard a live rendition of either 'Whole Lotta Love' or 'Achilles Last Stand' that worked for me, much less equaled the superior studio versions... the strength in those two tracks were how they were produced/mixed, and you just couldn't replicate that onstage.

Again, my own humble opinion, of course.

I think the Whole Lotta Love that's on the BBC recordings, aside from the guitar solo, is superior to what's on the album,  and I always loved the WLL medleys in concert, but I get what you're saying. I feel the same way about Stairway. The studio version, to me, is perfection to the point that any reproduction of it will be less than perfect. I often skip Stairway when listening to concerts since it's always going to sound inferior to what's on the album.

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9 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Not sure if it's a 'controversial' opinion as such, but I've never heard a live rendition of either 'Whole Lotta Love' or 'Achilles Last Stand' that worked for me

Me either, but the version on the remastered HTWWW is pretty awesome. Excellent guitar tone for once.

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On 2/5/2019 at 1:57 PM, the-ocean87 said:

Each to their own, but you make your statements kinda invalid if you call everyone who appreciates Bonzos drumming as "fanboys".

The fanboys are the ones who won't admit any fault whatsoever even when the evidence is in front of them. 

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On 2/5/2019 at 1:57 PM, the-ocean87 said:

Even in techincal aspects he was as good as it gets

I strongly disagree with that. I've listened to the countless drum solos over the years and more often than not, Bonham sounds more like someone trying to imitate a jazz/swing solo than actually owning it. A lot of them were repetitive snoozefests. He may imitate and incorporate swing and jazz, but he's realistically missing the character and dynamics. 

But, it's getting to the point where I feel like I'm just bashing the guy while all I'm trying to do is defend my "controversial opinion" that no one can accept. So, I'm done. For some reason I had expected some open mindedness, but that was foolish on my part.

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Bonham brought all the technicality to the music that was required. We will never know if  there was more to him than he was able to put to use in Led Zeppelin. An expert uses the technique required to get the job done, Bonham did that in spades. Within his genre he is the most revered drummer there is, and only Keith Moon was more original within the genre. Charlie Watts does nothing flashy and I have no idea about his technique but his feel for the Stones is immaculate. 

Joe Bonamassa is a guitarist I love and plays with flawless technique. I have never heard him hit a bad note live. Yet I yearn for him to play with a little less technique and a little more feel or haphazard. If you're not wiping out once in a while how can you be sure you are pushing yourself and your music.

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36 minutes ago, tyler19 said:

Joe Bonamassa is a guitarist I love and plays with flawless technique. I have never heard him hit a bad note live. Yet I yearn for him to play with a little less technique and a little more feel or haphazard. If you're not wiping out once in a while how can you be sure you are pushing yourself and your music.

Ritchie Blackmore said the same thing about Joe Satriani last year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2XW-dOA8Ws

sorry for going off topic

Edited by luvlz2

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19 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

My fav version is still Berlin 1980 as it is really unique.

Oh boy... 'Whole Lotta Love' Berlin 1980 is in a class by itself; that freak-out jam session is a thing of beauty, Jonesy playing bass like Jimmy plays guitar, it's magisterial... almost as if they (subconsciously) knew it was the last hurrah for them and they gave it their all one last time... it's magnificent even if the rest of that show was spotty, alas...

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 For me Zeppelin stood or fell depending on how Jimmy was playing at that particular time.  In my opinion he peaked somewhere around 73 with the MSG gigs the very pinnacle of his uniquely flowing “edge of the precipice”style.  I only saw them play live twice – at both Knebworth gigs – and my overriding emotion at the time was one of disappointment that Jimmy sounded nothing like he did on TSRTS. A combination of heroin, nerves and lack of practice badly hampered his performances from 75 onwards, in fact I can’t listen to anything from the 77 tour at all without grimacing. 

Also on a different point I find Plant’s weak, nasal, whiny voice he has NOW is unbearable-in fact Plant these days just full on irritates the hell out of me!

Edited by Paganini

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4 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Oh boy... 'Whole Lotta Love' Berlin 1980 is in a class by itself; that freak-out jam session is a thing of beauty, Jonesy playing bass like Jimmy plays guitar, it's magisterial... almost as if they (subconsciously) knew it was the last hurrah for them and they gave it their all one last time... it's magnificent even if the rest of that show was spotty, alas...

Oh man, I TOTALLY AGREE with your description!  What a great freak-out jam indeed by The Four Lads!!

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I guess it should be said that 90% of people in this form probably never saw Led Zeppelin live. I being one of them, and not a huge fan of bootlegs because of the sound quality sucks. I am sure their is a few decent sounding recordings of Zeppelin live on bootlegs but I will pass. My gripe with Led Zeppelin was the overindulged solos that sounded sloppy and definitely not worth the listen (My opinion) ie. No quarter, the SRTS version is killer. The 1975’ 77’ is a bore. They definitely could have added some more songs off  presence album. The Acoustic set should have had more songs off Zep3 would have loved to hear Gallows Pole, Friends and swan song. 

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12 hours ago, The Old Hermit said:

Oh boy... 'Whole Lotta Love' Berlin 1980 is in a class by itself; that freak-out jam session is a thing of beauty, Jonesy playing bass like Jimmy plays guitar, it's magisterial... almost as if they (subconsciously) knew it was the last hurrah for them and they gave it their all one last time... it's magnificent even if the rest of that show was spotty, alas...

I am fairly sure wll was played that way, with jones and bonham being a horse on a full run, with page being a string on the bit on the 80 tour. I simply call that honesty and band support. He was strong when he needed to be throughout the set...but yes he was weak compared to early zep. 

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 Controversial? Okay, strap in, I am going to get tons of hate spewed my way.

1. I can't stand the early live Zep concerts either, like someone earlier posted. I find myself embarrassed FOR plant with all the weird noises he makes. To me, Zep live didnt get good until 72 or so, and I much prefer the later 1977 or so concerts. This may have to do with my age...born in 1960.

2. I think plant is a total diva now, to ignore Zep but get all excited over Krause or the Fantastic Fence Posts. PLEASE!

3. I think plant would be a nobody if Jimmy didnt find him and while he owes us nothing, he does owe almost everything to Jimmy. Plants own words...he was disillusioned with his lack of success...he was going to try one more time. Then along came Jimmy. He showed a total lack of gratitude towards Jimmy after Zep disbanded.

4. I think a break after Bonhams death was appropriate and needed. I think they should have gone on with a different drummer after a few years break. Or better yet, once Jason came of age rebanded with him.

5. I think Jimmy at some point should have said to himself, "Okay, Robert will never come around. Time to replace him". AC/DC did it, Van Halen did it. Others have successfully also. Zep with Bonhams son, with Page and Jones and someone   new singing...heck yes. Would still beat the stuffing out of any other band. And once plant saw the success while he was farting around with Soiled Sneakers or whatever group, he would beg to be let in. His ego would demand it (not faulting this...if I was plant my own ego would be HUGE). Plant held all the cards. Once he saw Jimmy simply get a new deck he would definitely want to be dealt a hand from it. Thus I blame the lack of Zep getting back together on Jimmy, he should have just gone ahead with it. Too late now, it will never be.

6. Coda is a good album. Cant understand why I read here that "Coda isnt a real album, its all songs that didnt make it to the album they were created for" yet these same people consider the SONG Houses of the Holy a real song. It didnt make it onto the HOTH album. Kind of a double standard. Poor Tom is GREAT. And I love wearing and Tearing.

7. In my opinion Presence is tied with PG for greatest album ever recorded in human history. Ever. Three masterpieces on vinyl. Ever. Etch it in stone.

8. The worst song in Zeps 92 song repertoire in my opinion is Fool in the Rain. Bonham must have sensed how weak it was so decided to try to salvage it with superb drumming. Probably the only Zep song I skip over if I hear it on the radio, that and the ending (last 4 minutes) of Carouselambra but I have NEVER heard that on the radio.

9. I wish Page would have been there in the mornings when ITTOD was recorded...maybe he could have over ridden plant and Jones with the very lame songs on that album. By far their worst. To go from the masterpiece of Presence to the doldrums of ITTOD.....wow. In the studio Page should have at least dropped the volume on Jones new electronic toy.

 

My first album ever bought was Zep 4, for $2 when my allowance was 25 cents every two weeks (seriously), back in 1972 or 1973. You are looking at 4 months wages! I bought it because my brother had recently bought Zep 2 and I couldnt believe what I was hearing on our old mono record player!!!! Have been a Led Head ever since.

Okay....I'm ready for the hate!

 

Edited by dandak

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i want that you know that fortunately im the kind of fan that believe that the members of the group were the best in their instruments
really i disagree with almost every comment on that topic. I think that really until 73 the group exhibited more instrumental skill and
from 74 the group changed a lot the sound and it became less wild but more beautiful, and the good vibrations became weaker. But
it still continued at a high level and although the show performance lost power but kept a very special kind of charm at least up to 77.
And it is undeniable that the versions of the songs at that time were fantastically beautiful. Now there is no proof that
the members lost all instrumental skill at the same time and it is an incoherence to believe that. And I think it is childish to
compare the members of the group with jazz musicians, because the most potent performance in group shows that was until 73 almost
nothing exist in video to check their technical level. The film is a great example because the moby dick was 28 minutes
and was cut to 12 minutes, and had several scenes of great performance that the camera did not shoot a suitable angle and
can not see correctly.there is almost nothing to analyze.
Now i want do the comment aboutthe comparison of bonham with jazz drummers, I say that if I could have the
skills of any drummer I would surely
easily choose Bonham, which if he wanted was easily the most
powerful in history and although it did not have a totally technical style but it was not robotic as the jazz drummers because
it was totally spontaneous and unpredictable, and had one thing in my opinion superior to all jazz drummers, which may seem
contradictory because of its aggressive attitude but the word is class.
Have a long time since I came to the conclusion that the members of the group are bigger than the group and
that they had more skill than those who showed in shows and this is sure
and thank you.

 

Edited by marcio614

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i want that you know that the users need to prove many declarations and there arent videos to prove this and thank you.

Edited by marcio614

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2 hours ago, dandak said:

2. I think plant is a total diva now, to ignore Zep but get all excited over Krause or the Fantastic Fence Posts. PLEASE!

+1000

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