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RoundingRover

Why was JPJ disinvited from Page/Plant?

105 posts in this topic

What caused the falling out between Robert, Jimmy and John in the 90s? In the last days of Zeppelin, Robert and JPJ were closer than ever...and then suddenly in the 90s the other two pretended like he didn't exist. Why didn't Robert and Jimmy even give a thought to including John in their Page/Plant thing in the 90s?

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I think it was simply the fact that, had JPJ been included, there was no way it couldn't be considered a LZ reunion. Page and (more probably) Plant didn't want that at the time.

I think it's as simple as that.

(I would have been quite up for the full reunion myself, but the Page/Plant tours were a good unique outing as well.)

 

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'Disinvited' is a disingenuous word to use. An invitation was never in play so there was none to be taken away.

Robert Plant and Jimmy Page have explained themselves quite thoroughly about the genesis of the Page/Plant project. All of the interviews they gave are available to read on the internet and the reasons they gave were quite simple and rational. It totally made sense to me.

Only those looking to stir the pot keep bringing it up. It's time for everyone to move on. I'm sorry if Jones and his acolytes remain hurt, but it's over 20 years later...and the fact that they did reunite one more time for Ahmet should close the book on whatever did or did not happen in 1994-95. 

It's beating a dead horse by this point.

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To throw gas on the fire....they had to use JPJ's own signature song to define the whole thing "No Quarter".  

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I've always wondered by RP kept slagging JPJ thru the 80's.  In 87 a 88 he slagged JPJ a lot in the press.

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I think these questions get brought up by those who maybe like the idea of hearing thoughts
from other Zeppelin fans on the actual Zeppelin board rather than Google random sites.  
Sometimes asking on here is so much better  since a lot of you guys can provide fantastic info. 
I don't overly believe somebody is asking in hopes of  getting  people riled up.  


I don't think there was ever a "Jones and Plant"  thing even with the making of In Through The
Out Door.
 That was smoke and mirrors.  They were working more closely in the studio opposed
to Page and Plant because Jimmy was in bed with smack.  Bonham too was in bad shape 


As to why Jones was not included?  It was never meant to be a reunion and having Jones there
would have made it that way.  I think it hit a sour notes because they worked on Zeppelin
songs.... songs that Jones had a hand in writing.   I do believe  Page would have been fine with
Jones being a part of  the No Quarter project,   but at that time he probably didn't want to rock
the boat with Plant.  I  read an interview  AFTER the O2 from Jones.  Like Strider says,  it took time
and Jones wasn't happy,  but he said he has moved on and it's now water under the bridge.     



 

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I don't know why Jones wasn't invited, why P&P didn't want Jones contributing, as no one does better LZ bass than JPJ.

But then there's the RP nepotism factor. The P&P bassist was Robert's son-in-law, no??

But, I've got no god in this fight, as the P&P venture was all below Zeppelin standards, in every way. Now that doesn't mean it was sh*t -- just that wasn't worth my attention, as Zeppelin first fan (differentiating from being a Page first fan, or a Yardbirds first fan, or a Robert first fan, or a Band Of Joy first fan, etc...)

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Well certainly C. Jones and Michael Lee weren't seen as up to Zep's "real" rhythm section. However, have you ever actually

seen P/P live in 98', or heard/seen audio/videos of their shows ?? Page was a little erratic but still usually good at least 

in 95'. 98', Page came out all guns blazing, quite a few critics and fans will attest he played fantastic, even as good as Zep.

Plant wasn't weak by any standard, either. Not Zep but Lee and C.Jones weren't a farce by any means. Perhaps you've

seen some of those shows or heard them. Many people just automatically assume it couldn't possibly be any good, without actually hearing the shows. Forget WIC... Live the songs were much more potent.

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Well certainly C. Jones and Michael Lee weren't seen as up to Zep's "real" rhythm section. However, have you ever actually

seen P/P live in 98', or heard/seen audio/videos of their shows ?? Page was a little erratic but still usually good at least 

in 95'. 98', Page came out all guns blazing, quite a few critics and fans will attest he played fantastic, even as good as Zep.

Plant wasn't weak by any standard, either. Not Zep but Lee and C.Jones weren't a farce by any means. Perhaps you've

seen some of those shows or heard them. Many people just automatically assume it couldn't possibly be any good, without actually hearing the shows. Forget WIC... Live the songs were much more potent.

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I think it was a mistake not to include Jonesy for the P & P project... the guy is a virtuoso multi-instrumentalist and master arranger, and considering the world music areas they were exploring on that project - and to a lesser extent on Walking Into Clarksdale - Jonesy would have been ideal for such a situation.  I do understand Page and (more likely) Plant's reason for not including him, but it came across as petty and disrespectful, especially the latter's 'parking the cars' comment at the time.

And had they included Jonesy, and the inevitable Led Zeppelin reunion questions came about, they could have easily shot it down by simply pointing out that it's not LZ in all but name because Bonzo isn't there... end of story.

Just as a last thought; I often wonder when I listen to it, what Jonesy's contribution could have done to a song like 'Most High'... that song could have been on Physical Graffiti  had it been written at the time (it's that good), and with Jonesy orchestrating the string arrangements that went with it, it could have been awesome.

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Posted (edited)

Y'know, being a working class Yorkshire bloke, I actually laughed at the 'parking the car' quip! It sounds like precisely the sort of 'banter between mates' rough humour you hear every day 'oop North'. I know JPJ didn't see it as banter and was genuinely hurt by it, but I honestly don't think Robert meant it seriously or nastily or as a value judgement on Jonesy and his role in Zeppelin. It just sounded like a bloke taking the piss out of a mate, to me. Mind you, I thought Robert making a big dramatic flourish and dropping to his knees in front of JPJ to apologise was pretty funny too! Northern humour, I guess...      

Edited by Brigante

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The best thing to come out of the Page and Plant collaboration was Zooma and The Thundertheif. John Paul Jones came out blazing and made 2 highly original solo albums. So thank you Jimmy and Robert. 

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I don't profess to know what was going on behind the scenes, but I believe Page was desperate to work with Plant again (that's become even more apparent in the years since), and Robert was calling the shots.  

Vis-a-vis the non-invite to Jonesy, having Plant's son-in-law playing bass pretty much says it all imo.

I saw quite a few shows in both 95 and 98, and I enjoyed them, especially the ones from 98.  Page was really back by that point, his best playing since 1973 imo.  I enjoyed the WIC tour better than the first one.  Cutting the waffle from the NQ tour and rocking out on WIC tour made that tour more enjoyable for me.  

At the end of the day, the Jones snub hasn't aged well.  The fact that he apparently found out about it in the papers, and subsequent disrespectful Plant "quips", weren't a good look for P/P.  That said, I went anyway and was glad I did.  But I wouldn't blame Jones one bit if that era still sticks in his craw.

 

 

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The idea that the P & P tours were not up to Zeppelin standards is silly. Was Jimmy being so drunk and smacked out while touring in 77' up to Zep standards? Were the fans who showed up in Tempe in 77' given a show up to Zep standards? As Mith pointed out above, Page's playing, especially during the 98' tour, was easily as good (in my opinion better), as his best live playing in Zeppelin. The band was tight, focused, yet loose enough to allow Jimmy to jam and Robert sounded very good.

That being said, Robert was a right nasty twat for his quips to Jones. Northern humor...fuck that BS, I don't buy it and that alone is somewhat of an insult to Jones as well. Plant knew exactly what he was saying and did so on purpose. After all, when one takes the piss it is done in response to the others boast or others comment. One cannot take the piss when the other is not even present, nor the other ever having made a comment. Then, calling it No Quarter, fuck, thats not rubbing salt into the wound that's pissing on it.

As much as I love Robert the man can be very immature for such a intelligent guy. His directed insults to Jonesy, his endless remarks about a Zep reunion post O2 that were just baiting and insincere (Oh, ask  the Capricorns'; if Jimmy will do an all acoustic...blah, blah, blah). There are times that Robert's ego trumps the feelings of both friends and fans alike. I have always stuck by and defended Plant's refusal to reform Zep, it shows integrity and class and I admire anyone willing to do their own thing vs. what they know will sell. I just don't know what possesses Robert to be a dick about it as well at times.

The irony is if Jimmy really wanted to have a Zep reunion tour I know exactly how to get Robert not only on board but licking Jimmy's balls to do so. Release a statement to the press that he (Jimmy), JPJ, and Jason will reform Zeppelin to tour with David Coverdale on vocals.

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Some people take all this stuff far too seriously, there are people starving to death in the World, I'm not going to lose any sleep about what some millionaire rock stars say about each other in the press.

The Page & Plant thing was 20 years ago, it was great, it's done, no point crying over spilt milk now.

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1 minute ago, Mook said:

Some people take all this stuff far too seriously, there are people starving to death in the World, I'm not going to lose any sleep about what some millionaire rock stars say about each other in the press.

The Page & Plant thing was 20 years ago, it was great, it's done, no point crying over spilt milk now.

Well yeah.. besides they seem to be good now, and that's all that really matters.  

But this a Led Zeppelin website right?.. so discussing LZ, their music, its members and history is why it exists.. it kind of goes with the territory. 

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6 minutes ago, the chase said:

Well yeah.. besides they seem to be good now, and that's all that really matters.  

But this a Led Zeppelin website right?.. so discussing LZ, their music, its members and history is why it exists.. it kind of goes with the territory. 

I agree, it just amazes me how angry some people seem to get about it all.

For the record, I think some of the Page & Plant stuff was amazing, the Kashmir with the orchestra, The Truth Explodes & Thank You are things I often go back to watch on Youtube, would it have been much better with John Paul Jones? Maybe, but you can see why they went ahead without him. The other boy was a great bass player too.

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1 minute ago, Mook said:

I agree, it just amazes me how angry some people seem to get about it all.

For the record, I think some of the Page & Plant stuff was amazing, the Kashmir with the orchestra, The Truth Explodes & Thank You are things I often go back to watch on Youtube, would it have been much better with John Paul Jones? Maybe, but you can see why they went ahead without him. The other boy was a great bass player too.

I think tone and affect are lost on the keyboard to a certain point as I believe what you infer as anger is simply observation and nothing more. Honestly, unless someone is dropping F bombs or typing in all caps, or being downright insulting, I do not sense anger at all in these posts.

Yes, Charlie Jones was / is a great bass player in his own right. I have no problem with nepotism if the bloke can do the job well and is held to the same standards as the others. Though if I were in Charlie's shoes I would worry every time me and the wife got into an argument, I may get my walking papers from Plant.

Plant: Sorry Charlie, you pissed off my sweet little muffin princess, gotta let you go mate. Hey, do you by any change have Paul Martinez's number???

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13 minutes ago, IpMan said:

I think tone and affect are lost on the keyboard to a certain point as I believe what you infer as anger is simply observation and nothing more. Honestly, unless someone is dropping F bombs or typing in all caps, or being downright insulting, I do not sense anger at all in these posts.

Yes, Charlie Jones was / is a great bass player in his own right. I have no problem with nepotism if the bloke can do the job well and is held to the same standards as the others. Though if I were in Charlie's shoes I would worry every time me and the wife got into an argument, I may get my walking papers from Plant.

Plant: Sorry Charlie, you pissed off my sweet little muffin princess, gotta let you go mate. Hey, do you by any change have Paul Martinez's number???

Apologies, yes - it appears I misunderstood the tone of your earlier post.

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1 minute ago, Mook said:

Apologies, yes - it appears I misunderstood the tone of your earlier post.

The real irony here is I may be guilty on my judgement of some of Plant's remarks, while I try to explain my own.

We humans are a funny bunch indeed.

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18 minutes ago, IpMan said:

The real irony here is I may be guilty on my judgement of some of Plant's remarks, while I try to explain my own.

We humans are a funny bunch indeed.

Ha ha, you're not far wrong there.

I don't think Robert Plant's remarks need an awful lot of scrutiny to be honest, he would probably be the first person to admit he talks a load of tripe (it's one of the things I find endearing about him actually).

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Quote

I don't profess to know what was going on behind the scenes, but I believe Page was desperate to work with Plant again (that's become even more apparent in the years since), and Robert was calling the shots.  

That in my mind very much continues today -  even though the whole Page /Plant work
relationship was over years ago.   James Patrick puts all of his eggs into the Zeppelin basket
and that puts the end to any activity with other musical artists - especially Robert.  On No
Quarter
  if Jones had been involved,  I don't think Jimmy would have cared if people
mistakenly identified or attached Zep's name to it either. (I know it wasn't)  That would have
only been corrected for Plant.   There would have been so many rules though, or Plant would
have put the end to it.   

 

Quote

At the end of the day, the Jones snub hasn't aged well.  The fact that he apparently found out about it in the papers, and subsequent disrespectful Plant "quips", weren't a good look for P/P.  That said, I went anyway and was glad I did.  But I wouldn't blame Jones one bit if that era still sticks in his craw.

Speaking of Jonesy being upset still.  In the interview that was linked on here a short bit ago
he was saying how happy he was to be working with Jimmy again. This was after London O2
of course.  That made me sig
:console:

************************************************************************

Reading through some old threads on here I noticed our opinions can and do change.  The
Jones No Quarter  thing has some who were understanding of why Plant did what he
did,  turn around later and see it as something rather off-putting.  Perhaps views may have
changed after Plant said he wouldn't be a part of whatever Jimmy,  Jones and Jason had
cooking.  This was a golden opportunity and AGAIN Plant played the roll of giant party
pooper.  I'll shut up
 because as much I see those who nit pick on the lack of Jimmy output
these days,  the other side (like me :shifty:) are guilty of pointing the finger at Plant for something.

Original poster! Well done! The board often becomes a snooze atmosphere and sometimes
a topic like this can spark a lively opinionated conversation! 
:drinks:

 


 

 

 

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Plant can be very strange at times. He got close to Jones during ITTOD and they basically wrote the whole record together, yet he and Page left him out of the picture for Unledded.  Page didn't even attend Karac's funeral which I think, is eternally unforgivable, and I am sure Plant still thinks that to this very day. However, he teamed up with Page for Unledded and the record after, I assume, for money.

Jones is always the least talked about member of Led Zeppelin but he was the best musician and was the equal to the others. No Jones, No Zep. No Bonham, No Zep. No Page, No Zep. No Plant, No Zep. 

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On 3/7/2017 at 7:50 PM, KellyGirl said:

I think these questions get brought up by those who maybe like the idea of hearing thoughts
from other Zeppelin fans on the actual Zeppelin board rather than Google random sites.  
Sometimes asking on here is so much better  since a lot of you guys can provide fantastic info. 
I don't overly believe somebody is asking in hopes of  getting  people riled up.  

 

I was not talking about 'random Google sites'. I was talking about very specific interviews Robert gave about the inception of the Un-Ledded project to real journalists for real media publications...not some keyboard warrior in his underwear in his mother's basement.

Boiled down simply...the Un-Ledded thing first began as on offer from MTV to do an Un-Plugged episode. Somehow by someone, Jimmy Page got mentioned as a possible collaborator. Robert Plant was nervous about working with Jimmy again. How would they mesh personally and professionally after all those years apart. There was also still the pain of past wounds for Plant to deal with. To add John Paul Jones to that mix would have been too much for Plant to deal with at one time. First he wanted to see if Page and him could get on with each other.

As for the "parking cars" remark...that is Plant's humour, you can either take it with a grain of salt or take umbrage. He has always been that way. Personally, I think he meant that answer more for the reporter asking the question than towards Jones. It was Plant's way of short-circuiting any "Zep reunion" questions.

I liked the Un-Ledded sessions...it was thrilling to hear the Egyptian orchestra behind Four Sticks and Kashmir. The 1995 tour was amazing...I haven't heard the LA Forum that loud since the days of Zeppelin. 

But hey, if it still sticks in your craw that Jones was not invited and you think there is some nefarious reason Plant has it in for Jones, then try this on for size. The reason is Plant never forgave Jones for switching to the Alembic basses in 1977 and littering the shows with alien fart noises. 

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Ha Ha. Many have complained about that powerful but somewhat shrill and obtrusive Alembic bass. File that in with that

?($5000) Yamaha keyboard which sounded like a Toy's R Us kid keyboard. Sorry about these double entries, I have tried

everything to eliminate them. Perhaps there are saboteurs afoot, or I really am a computer moron.

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