09/29/1971 Osaka - Stairway To Heaven - EVSD SBD Single

[JohnOsbourne]

16 minutes ago, Sticks of Fire said:

Thank you, this is why people probably think only certain dates exist from the 1977 board rather than a source with a few shows or the opposite, a source with every show. 

Grant's ambiguous or inaccurate statements about available bootlegs have nothing to do with the original statement he was making, which is that a block of soundboard tapes were taken outside of Zeppelin's control.

[pluribus]

48 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

I have already provided it, a few posts up tonight and in previous debates with you here over the last two years or so.  The fact that you choose to not honestly confront it, instead offering up distractions and irrelevancy, points to your dishonesty (assuming you've actually understood what is being explained to you, it's clear enough you don't understand statistical reasoning but you should at least make an effort).

This?

"With some very mild assumptions about EV's choices for particular releases, it is simply statistically improbable, after 15 years, that they have anything from Jan 75 or Pontiac or Forum '77 shows. We would have seen them by now.  The idea that the "Revolution" tapes are coming from a contiguous block of shows (suggesting whoever supplied them grabbed a bunch of tapes aligned in chronological order, but not the entire tours) not only fits the data best, it is falsifialbe." 

It all falls apart with "We would have seen them by now".  Why would we have seen them by now?  No logic to support that at all.

The part about the 75 soundboards being from a "contiguous block of shows" is a redundant statement, because the entire US tour (January-March) is a "contiguous block of shows", across two legs (January through February, late February through March), and yet we somehow have shows from both of those legs. If you now think that maybe they also have the LA shows, then why not also January?  Because you just can't bring yourself to?  There is no magical border between the shows played in January vs February.  Whereas there IS a break between the first leg and the second leg, and yet we have shows from both. It would've made more sense that EV released ONLY shows from Feb or ONLY shows from March, given the break in-between. They've released a bunch of shows from the first leg, and a bunch of shows from the second leg. That's it. No pattern, no theories needed.  

As for why we don't have any shows from January. How about because those are the worst performances of the tour, and so have next to no value, even for the diehards?  Releasing one of those January shows would be like when the Chicago 7/6/73 board first circulated, or like releasing Tempe 1977. After two minutes in, it's "no thanks, I've had enough". Plant's voice was wrecked all the way up until the Philadelphia 2/8 show, which just happens to be one show away from the earliest board that EV have released from the tour. If you're looking for theories, there you go.  If EV really wanted to make some quick "sampler" money, they should just release the single tracks of "Levee" and "Wanton Song" from a January show to appease the curious, and then call it a day for that leg.  

[JohnOsbourne]

47 minutes ago, pluribus said:

The quote in Welch's book is in reference to the 1977 tour:

"Jonesy was doing incredible versions of "No Quarter" at this time. I wasn't surprised there were a lot of bootleg albums from that tour because one night Benji LeFevre lost some of our sound desk tapes. I never did bollock him for it; I just put it down as one of those things."

Grant died in 1995. During his lifetime, the only soundboards besides BBC and Osaka to have hit the bootleg market were "Trampled Underfoot" (Dallas 75), and "Destroyer" (Cleveland 1977) both in the late 1980s. And we now know that "Destroyer" wasn't sourced from a Showco tape at all.  So, Grant's comments make no sense. The 1973 and 1980 soundboards hadn't really circulated to bootlegs by the time Grant passed away.  The only "lot of bootleg albums" that Grant would've known about from the 1973-1977 tours would've been audience recordings.

Grant's not saying he thinks the block of tapes was taken *because* of the prevalence of bootlegs, he's saying the tapes *were* taken and then (mistakenly) attributes this fact to the prevalence of bootlegs.  Completely different issues.

[JohnOsbourne]

26 minutes ago, pluribus said:

This?

"With some very mild assumptions about EV's choices for particular releases, it is simply statistically improbable, after 15 years, that they have anything from Jan 75 or Pontiac or Forum '77 shows. We would have seen them by now.  The idea that the "Revolution" tapes are coming from a contiguous block of shows (suggesting whoever supplied them grabbed a bunch of tapes aligned in chronological order, but not the entire tours) not only fits the data best, it is falsifialbe." 

It all falls apart with "We would have seen them by now".  Why would we have seen them by now?  No logic to support that at all.

The part about the 75 soundboards being from a "contiguous block of shows" is a redundant statement, because the entire US tour (January-March) is a "contiguous block of shows", across two legs (January through February, late February through March), and yet we somehow have shows from both of those legs. If you now think that maybe they also have the LA shows, then why not also January?  Because you just can't bring yourself to?  There is no magical border between the shows played in January vs February.  Whereas there IS a break between the first leg and the second leg, and yet we have shows from both. It would've made more sense that EV released ONLY shows from Feb or ONLY shows from March, given the break in-between. They've released a bunch of shows from the first leg, and a bunch of shows from the second leg. That's it. No pattern, no theories needed.  

As for why we don't have any shows from January. How about because those are the worst performances of the tour, and so have next to no value, even for the diehards?  Releasing one of those January shows would be like when the Chicago 7/6/73 board first circulated, or like releasing Tempe 1977. After two minutes in, it's "no thanks, I've had enough". Plant's voice was wrecked all the way up until the Philadelphia 2/8 show, which just happens to be one show away from the earliest board that EV have released from the tour. If you're looking for theories, there you go.  If EV really wanted to make some quick "sampler" money, they should just release the single tracks of "Levee" and "Wanton Song" from a January show to appease the curious, and then call it a day for that leg.  

By "contiguous block" I mean such a block as a *subset* within the overall tour, i.e. not a mixed sample or the entire tour.

It's not a question of pure logic, it's a question of probabilistic analysis.  If they were randomly drawing from the shows they had, and if they had the entire tour, then the probability that we would see this many releases without seeing anything from January or early February is tiny, and therefore the hypothesis of a random draw from the complete set should be rejected as unlikely on statistical grounds.  Of course, EV or whomever is not making a random draw, there is some will involved, but the actual releases we've seen are a good mix of classics (Seattle), duds (Landover), hidden gems (St Louis), and irrelevancies (Baton Rouge). There is indeed no pattern to the actual shows released, so they closely resemble a random draw.  Therefore it is reasonable to accept the first part of the premise, and reject the complete set hypothesis.  Put differently, they are effectively drawing randomly from a subset.  This subset *does* have a pattern, namely mid-Feb to late March.  You are confusing the non-pattern of actual releases with the category/pattern from which these releases come. 

Landover is a good example because you seem to regard it as a "gotcha" case.  Few would have predicted Landover's release in 2016 (I certainly didn't), but that is not the point.  The real issue is, in 2016, which would have been regarded as more likely to be released:  Landover or (say) Cleveland?  Pretty easy answer.  And it still fits the prevailing pattern (starting in mid-Feb).  It is no refutation.

BTW, subjectivity aside, there are good shows from January, Detroit is certainly as good as or better than some shows they have released.  And you undercut your position with your single/teaser example:  if they had anything unique from Chicago, they could have released it by now.  The fact that they haven't suggests they simply don't have those shows.

I suspect they have LA because, with the big one (Seattle) out of the way, they will still want some kind of grand finale.  That really only leaves the Forum shows.
  

[pluribus]

11 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Grant's not saying he thinks the block of tapes was taken *because* of the prevalence of bootlegs, he's saying the tapes *were* taken and then (mistakenly) attributes this fact to the prevalence of bootlegs.  Completely different issues.

He literally said "I wasn't surprised that B happened, because A happened."  Fill in B with "so many bootlegs" and A with "because Benji lost a bunch of soundboard tapes".  

Grant didn't live to see a mass of any soundboards get released, so even if his memory were accurate, then at best there should be a batch of 1977 boards out there. So, much for the 1975 theories. In any case, there's no revelation there. Either a person thinks the EV soundboards came from Page or they think they're stolen or from Showco (still technically stolen). That's where we've always been with this: soundboards exist, bootlegs have been made out of them. Trying to trace this board or that board back to some specific event is pointless. Grant's quote actually proves that. Given the time period, we could just as easily believe that Grant was referring to the 1980 soundboards which were stolen from Page's house. Or, I dunno, the stolen 1973 soundboards.

[JohnOsbourne]

3 minutes ago, pluribus said:

He literally said "I wasn't surprised that B happened, because A happened."  Fill in B with "so many bootlegs" and A with "because Benji lost a bunch of soundboard tapes".  

Grant didn't live to see a mass of any soundboards get released, so even if his memory were accurate, then at best there should be a batch of 1977 boards out there. So, much for the 1975 theories. In any case, there's no revelation there. Either a person thinks the EV soundboards came from Page or they think they're stolen or from Showco (still technically stolen). That's where we've always been with this: soundboards exist, bootlegs have been made out of them. Trying to trace this board or that board back to some specific event is pointless. Grant's quote actually proves that. Given the time period, we could just as easily believe that Grant was referring to the 1980 soundboards which were stolen from Page's house. Or, I dunno, the stolen 1973 soundboards.

Simple question:  were these tapes taken?  Yes or no.

[pluribus]

9 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Simple question:  were these tapes taken?  Yes or no.

Yes, and Grant was speaking about the 1977 tour.

[JohnOsbourne]

3 minutes ago, pluribus said:

Yes, and Grant was speaking about the 1977 tour.

OK, thank you.

[JTM]

6 hours ago, Sticks of Fire said:

It’s hard to believe that the guy(s) who sat there every night for various tour recording bands like Zeppelin and others has not come forward and talked about the good old days.   The experiences must have been amazing. 

More likely, there were no "good old days" those guys were just doing a job, same old boring shit day after day, load in set the levels load out eat sleep, load in set the levels load out eat sleep, oh, mustn't  forget the driving from town to town, boring.. Workers not fans.

[porgie66]

If this version of Stairway were to be used for an official release, there would have to be an edit made at the end. Bonzo makes an uncharacteristic mistake and it nearly throws off the band....I doubt Page would be OK with that. 

[LedElvis75]

1 hour ago, porgie66 said:

If this version of Stairway were to be used for an official release, there would have to be an edit made at the end. Bonzo makes an uncharacteristic mistake and it nearly throws off the band....I doubt Page would be OK with that. 

About the 8:45 - 8:50 mark??

[Mook]

1 hour ago, porgie66 said:

If this version of Stairway were to be used for an official release, there would have to be an edit made at the end. Bonzo makes an uncharacteristic mistake and it nearly throws off the band....I doubt Page would be OK with that. 

I'll need to go back & listen to it, I had it on in the background on Sunday & didn't hear a mistake.

Maybe I should leave it though, I hate hearing a Bonham mistake.

[porgie66]

2 minutes ago, LedElvis75 said:

About the 8:45 - 8:50 mark??

Yes

[LedElvis75]

Just now, Mook said:

I'll need to go back & listen to it, I had it on in the background on Sunday & didn't hear a mistake.

Maybe I should leave it though, I hate hearing a Bonham mistake.

I think he put his last fill one verse too soon.  The big bass/snare fill right after "And if you listen very hard" Is that it George?

[porgie66]

3 minutes ago, Mook said:

I'll need to go back & listen to it, I had it on in the background on Sunday & didn't hear a mistake.

Maybe I should leave it though, I hate hearing a Bonham mistake.

Yeah, I know...it's not a train wreck though, he doesn't lose the beat but it almost throws off Page. He's early with the fill. It stands out though...to me at least. 

[LedElvis75]

1 minute ago, porgie66 said:

Yes

Yep.

I caught it too.  Doesn't flub a fill, just comes in one verse too soon.

[Mook]

Just now, porgie66 said:

Yeah, I know...it's not a train wreck though, he doesn't lose the beat but it almost throws off Page. He's early with the fill. It stands out though...to me at least. 

If he throws the guitarist off that's fine with me, I'll stick it on as soon as I get home tonight

[Sticks of Fire]

All of this made me go back and listen to my favorite Japan 1971 show....Tokyo 9/23.   They were on fire this mini tour!!

[porgie66]

38 minutes ago, Sticks of Fire said:

All of this made me go back and listen to my favorite Japan 1971 show....Tokyo 9/23.   They were on fire this mini tour!!

Yeah, in some ways I think that's the best night although 929 is epic for so many reasons. The Bonham incident, all the hilarious banter that is audible, the extended Immigrant Song, ...but the playing on 9/23 is really spot on. I remember Hiroshima is a great show too. Fuck , they were all great, that was a peak era performance wise.  Holding out hope that an official How The East Was Won set will be released. 

[Sticks of Fire]

36 minutes ago, porgie66 said:

Yeah, in some ways I think that's the best night although 929 is epic for so many reasons. The Bonham incident, all the hilarious banter that is audible, the extended Immigrant Song, ...but the playing on 9/23 is really spot on. I remember Hiroshima is a great show too. Fuck , they were all great, that was a peak era performance wise.  Holding out hope that an official How The East Was Won set will be released. 

Is 9/23 the first break out of Bron-Y-Aur Stomp?   I’m still holding out hope for an Official Japan 1971....preferably a huge box set with every night.  Lmfao!

[ZepHead315]

54 minutes ago, porgie66 said:

Yeah, in some ways I think that's the best night although 929 is epic for so many reasons. The Bonham incident, all the hilarious banter that is audible, the extended Immigrant Song, ...but the playing on 9/23 is really spot on. I remember Hiroshima is a great show too. Fuck , they were all great, that was a peak era performance wise.  Holding out hope that an official How The East Was Won set will be released. 

Here here! The 1971 Japan tour is my favorite Zeppelin tour of all time. All five shows are an absolute master class in rock and roll! Imagine if Jimmy released a box set of the tour (hey we can dream dammit lol).

19 minutes ago, Sticks of Fire said:

Is 9/23 the first break out of Bron-Y-Aur Stomp?   I’m still holding out hope for an Official Japan 1971....preferably a huge box set with every night.  Lmfao!

9/23 was more of a tease than anything else. 9/28 is the first complete performance of the song.

[ZepHead315]

17 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

With some very mild assumptions about EV's choices for particular releases, it is simply statistically improbable, after 15 years, that they have anything from Jan 75 or Pontiac or Forum '77 shows. We would have seen them by now.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand this. If EVSD does indeed have Pontiac and the Forum 77 shows, then wouldn't it make sense that they're holding out on releasing them since those shows are so highly regarded? Yes, the physical market is drying up every year because fans are getting older and torrenting is so ubiquitous, but I would think EVSD would want to save the best for last. Hence why most of the shows they've released (Seattle and Osaka notwithstanding) have been mostly ranging from mediocre to decent but nothing earth shattering. Plus, what about the noise solo from 6/23? Did EVSD release that or was it put out by another label? (I can't remember off the top of my head).

What puzzles me is why they're holding on to the LA 75 shows. I mean, are they really THAT highly regarded? I always felt the general consensus was that they were a step down from Seattle and not a good showcase of the band at their best. Unless EVSD is planning some type of box set release of all three shows in the near future, I can't see why they would want to hold on to them for so long (assuming they have them). Long Beach sure, but not LA.

[hummingbird69]

13 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

  Plus, what about the noise solo from 6/23? Did EVSD release that or was it put out by another label? (I can't remember off the top of my head).

 

 

That was shared by Jason Peterson at Royalorleans a long time ago and it was only a snippet.   

[Sticks of Fire]

14 minutes ago, hummingbird69 said:

That was shared by Jason Peterson at Royalorleans a long time ago and it was only a snippet.   

The guy who ran the Lazers during the 1977 tour was given the Noise solo snippet by the band for cues.   He gave that to Hotel to upload.  

So the band certainly must have all the LA 1977 soundboards. 

[Sticks of Fire]

52 minutes ago, ZepHead315 said:

Here here! The 1971 Japan tour is my favorite Zeppelin tour of all time. All five shows are an absolute master class in rock and roll! Imagine if Jimmy released a box set of the tour (hey we can dream dammit lol).

9/23 was more of a tease than anything else. 9/28 is the first complete performance of the song.

Did they play it on 9/24?   I need to revisit that show.   I always like Tokyo 9/22 and Osaka 9/28 the best.