If the contributions of John Bonham and the chemistry between the four band members doesn't speak for itself, then I guess we're going to agree to disagree.

Fair enough. I do whole heartedly agree 1970-09-19 is a top 5 if not the top Zep show of all. Very special. I'm still not sure it's "easy at first bite" sound wise. But if you can turn somebody on to it, more power to you. And thank you for referencing Providence. It's been a while so I put it on today and it stopped me in my tracks. My new current favorite.

I really like the angle of this thread. Taking the mountain of material we have and narrowing it down to the most listenable performances that define the band's greatness. A challenge for sure with no real wrong or right answers. But it's obvious Mr. K is an informed fan and is looking beyond official releases. Let's review the parameters of Mr. K's challenge. -A list of five separate shows. He mentions this 3 times. -Nothing from 79/80 -Sound quality better than Providence 73 (sorry 1970-09-19!) -Shows with sustained energy, hell-dog perfection, variety, and great Plantations. -Shows which provide a valid explanation for burnt pot roast. My journey started with 1977-06-23. A high generation tape dub with lots of hiss that played fast. I still got sucked in, and for the reasons Mr. K is trying to spotlight. . It appears to me Mr. K is taking it a step beyond official releases and looking to lay some raw truth on someone. He knows what he wants. And if this forum can't help him, who can?

You lost me when you wanted to start comparing 1973 to 1980. If you're going to bother listening to Tour Over Europe, you have to accept it for what is is. It's another, different chapter of Led Zeppelin. I'll never accuse any of the '80 shows of being perfect, but i still enjoy listening to them. I'll also check out a four car pileup if i pass one on the freeway. (No analogy intended, of course) What's that old saying? One man's glimmer of hope is another man's wet book of matches.

1970-03-07 Montreux 1971-09-14 Berkeley 1973-03-24 Offenbach 1975-03-12 Long Beach 1977-06-23 Los Angeles

Contempt for the audience and/or the city? I think he's just disgusted with the acoustics of the venue. Otherwise he's business as usual.

Some of the frustration with Tour Over Europe is that none of the shows stand out in their entirety as knockout performances. This playlist ties some great moments together for a nice listen. My favorite moments are sprinkled throughout the tour, but my go-to shows have become Cologne and Hannover.

Excellent playlist worthy of compulsive listening.

Even a casual Zep fan knows there is more to the band than 12-bar blues and Scotty Moore riffs. Using a violin bow is hardly a stock technique. And there is actually more to LZ than just Jimmy Page and his arsenal of original approaches to playing and recording. For that matter, there is a lot more to Black Sabbath than angular riffage. The legacies of great bands like Zeppelin and Sabbath deserve better than to be dragged through this kind of muck.

Perfect Strangers Is not only a great album but a knockout comeback album. And despite production woes of the era. Certainly a more solid statement for Purple than Chocolate Factory has been for Primus. "Your lights are burning bright, but nobody's home"

There aren't any good songs on Perfect Strangers, Abandon, or Purpendicular (to begin with)? "Wring That Neck" isn't a worthy jam? Shit.

Led Zeppelin Live - Luis Rey

The well being of the planet? It would appear that the interests of the planet and the best interests of the people here are mutually exclusive. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL8HP1WzbDk

An omission in my list of omissions: The Flamin' Groovies Greil Marcus: "When I came up with the idea of the book (The History of Rock n Roll in 10 Songs) and had a sense of what I was going to do, I knew from that instant that the first song—the first chapter in the book—would be “Shake Some Action” by the Flamin’ Groovies. For years and years whenever I heard that song, on the radio or just playing it myself, I just thought, this is it. This is what rock ‘n’ roll is. Everything I want it to be. This could have been the first rock ‘n’ roll record. It could have been the last rock ‘n’ roll record. It has a spirit. It has a drive. It has a melodic momentum. It has a beat that didn’t exist before rock ‘n’ roll. It didn’t happen in the 50s or 60s; it happened in 1972 and wasn’t even heard until 1976. But none of that matters. This is more the thing itself than any other record I know". I've been waiting a long time for someone to agree with me on this.

Ick. This is like watered down Maroon 5. The over the top faux emotions are vomit inducing. Safe music for people who are desperate to belong.

Here's a short list just from the 70's: Jim Croce Gordon Lightfoot Joni Mitchell Neil Young Harry Chapin Bob Dylan James Taylor Don McLean Joan Baez Neil Diamond Maria Muldaur Carly Simon Arlo Guthrie John Denver Willie Nelson Waylon Jennings Bruce Springsteen Townes Van Zandt Paul Simon Patti Smith Stevie Wonder Paul McCartney John Lennon George Harrison Nick Drake Kris Kristofferson Johnny Cash Billy Joe Shaver Bill Withers Curtis Mayfield Lowell George Leo Kottke Jackson Browne Iggy Pop Gerry Rafferty Elton John/Bernie Taupin David Allen Coe Crosby, Stills, Nash The 70's was actually a time of great variety. It's often referred to as the singer-songwriter decade. Time will tell if any of the current crop will be remembered and overplayed in 40 years.

My -Tribute To Ronnie James Dio- Playlist 1973-06-10 ELF "Nevermore" Going Down Live at The Bank, Cortland, NY 1974 ELF "Rocking Chair Rock n Roll Blues" L.A. 59 1975 ELF "Prentice Wood" Trying To Burn The Sun 1975 Rainbow "Self Portrait" Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow 1976 Rainbow "A Light In The Black" Rising 1977 Rainbow "Catch The Rainbow" On Stage 1978 Rainbow "L.A. Connection","The Shed","Rainbow Eyes" Long Live Rock n Roll 1978 Rainbow "Man On The Silver Mountain" Finyl Vinyl Live in Atlanta 1980 Black Sabbath "Neon Knights" Heaven And Hell 1980-10-17 Black Sabbath "Heaven And Hell" Live at Nassau Coliseum 1981 Black Sabbath "Turn Up The Night" The Mob Rules 1982 Black Sabbath "Children Of The Sea" Live Evil 1983 DIO "Stand Up And Shout" Holy Diver 1984 DIO "Evil Eyes" The Last In Line 1984-10-05 DIO "The Last In Line" Live in London 1985 DIO "Sacred Heart" Sacred Heart 1987 DIO "I Could Have Been A Dreamer" Dream Evil 1987-10-04 DIO "Stars" Live in Tokyo 1990 DIO "Wild One" Lock Up The Wolves 1992 Black Sabbath "TV Crimes" Dehumanizer 1992-09-08 Black Sabbath "Time Machine" Live in Boston 1994 DIO "Strange Highways" Strange Highways 1996 DIO "Golden Rules" Angry Machines 2000 DIO "Turn to Stone" Magica 2002 DIO "Better In the Dark" Killing The Dragon 2004 DIO "I Am" Master Of The Moon 2007 Heaven and Hell "Lonely Is The Word" Live at Radio City Music Hall 2009 Heaven and Hell "Breaking Into Heaven" The Devil You Know All Hail Ronnie James Dio A man who dedicated his life to his vision, his fans, and rock and roll.

So if I understand Chuckles correctly, N.W.A. belongs in the hall and Springteen and Dylan don't? (Wrong) He probably thinks Madonna deserves her spot (She Doesn't). And that's the real problem. That there is no universal definition for rock n roll. It means one thing to me, another to you, something else to him, and whatever to Chucky. It's all subjective and ultimately, it's a nice but flawed idea. But this isn't a general music hall of fame. It's the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. Well, RnR according to Jan Wenner's narrow tastes. And if you can agree Jan and is crew are the problem, then you need to ask yourself if you can be objective enough to judge a band or artist on their own merits rather than on whether they are your personal cup o' tea. And also consider that hits and popularity aren't the best way to determine a great rock band's effect on culture and influence on the bands who followed in their footsteps. Along with Deep Purple, the most notable current omissions would be The MC5, Blue Oyster Cult, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Thin Lizzy. But really, fuckin' Sting as a solo artist? What a slap in the face to rock n roll. Michael Bolton and David Hassellhoff can't be far behind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW59FXjwzVs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfDoUIh23Wg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSo9CC2wKVI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NGKDx4DqXA

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production deadlines and dates by which bills must be paid" - FZ "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" - FZ "With a tongue like a cow she can make you go wow" - FZ

This is infinitely fascinating to me. The desperate drive to invalidate not only a man's work but his character because his music isn't your style. And the pathetic need to expose yourself as ultimately one dimensional. How dare anyone think outside your box. How grateful i am i'm not imprisoned in your mindnumbingly boring wasteland of a reality. Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and STP pass muster because they had the good sense to keep their crayons inside your lines. Because the secret to all great rock bands is playing it safe and verbatim regurgitation. But Nirvana didn't play it safe yet they still achieved success and cast a long shadow, and you just can't deal with that. I think that's more your problem than Kurt Cobain's. That's one reason why i admire the guy. Because he was successful in spite of his own problems. And in spite of people like you. Seems like people could just say good riddance or oh well and leave him in the past. Just forget about the talentless fluke. Right? But no. He seems to become more polarizing as time goes on. For the record, Kurt Cobain was: A great vocalist A talented unique guitarist An epic songwriter And if you can't or won't peek outside your little box of rules long enough to consider this, that's your sad fucking problem. Now go crawl back to your comfort zone where you belong. And for the love of Jimi stop trying to define greatness with your color by numbers bullshit. You're embarrassing yourself.

　 Could it be one man's trivialities are another man's demons? nah... Gotta say this post really surprised me. Not the content, as this point of view is rampant under every Cobain story, Nirvana video and thread online. But when there's a post count that high, one might expect that the poster has quality information or even some wisdom to bring to the table. Turns out i know you from somewhere else, Steve. A song called "Ballad of a Thin Man". Yeah, Mr. Jones didn't "get" Bob upon his arrival. But it's been twenty years and you still don't understand Kurt. Consider now for a moment the value in a fan hearing a lyric which commiserates, a lyric which addresses everyday problems which are universal but make many feel alone. Here's the news, like it or not. Kurt Cobain was very talented at writing those kind of lyrics. Consider the value when someone feels like someone else understands. Can you calculate that? The voice of dissent in rock n roll which speaks to and for the outsiders. The nobodies. For people whose voices are never heard. It's therapeutic. It's medicinal. Can you dig that? You make it clear he wasn't here to speak for you, but can't you muster the respect to say he was here to speak for someone? Common sense might look at the album sales and passionate fanbase and think, there is something happening here. I just don't know what it is. Sucks to be an outsider, huh Mr. Jones? No, you're definitely an important somebody. Your post count proves that, right? Or maybe that's just compensating for... If there hadn't been so much of this hateful rhetoric throughout the years you might not come across as such a mindless follower now. Maybe thoughtless potshots at an easy target is just your style. This begs the questions: Why would such a positive, together guy need to use that lame Kurt Cobain as a punching bag? Since he's so talentless, what is that really proving anyway? Shit, he's been dead for over twenty years and he's still a burr under your saddle? It's that old classic move, right? Attack what you don't understand. Personally, i don't have patience for knee-jerk reactions or foundless judgements. Something is still happening here, and you still don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?

We have 60 years of rock n roll history and Michael Hutchence, Oasis, and Peter Gabriel are at the top of people's all-time lists? Of exciting, charismatic rock n roll frontmen? And some of you are treating this like it's American Idol. Points for this and points for that and who was sober enough to qualify. No wonder there hasn't been a real rock n roll band since Nirvana. The fans stopped "getting it" and became too comfortable accepting the substitutes. We're on page 9 of this thread and I don't remember seeing Johnny Rotten anywhere. Regardless of your feelings towards Rotten's vocals, the Pistols or punk rock in general, this guy was EFFECTIVE as a frontman. He did his thing his way and left a lasting mark on culture. A high priest of rock and roll frontmen. The greatest rock n roll frontman of all-time? G.G Allin. Without a doubt. The guy who most embodied the true spirit of rock n roll, the spirit of expressing yourself your own way, on your own terms, without using anyone else's blueprint. He did some truly disgusting, offensive and wrong stuff. But the fact that he saw those lines and dared to cross them puts him in a league of his own. A true one of a kind. It's not necessarily about being extreme. Paul Rodgers should have been on the original list on this thread. For some reason, despite his close associations with Jimmy Page, and his epic talent, he's never really given any respect in this website's forum. Weird. For the most part, everyone has been trying to emulate the original masters; Elvis in '56, Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis in '57, and Buddy Holly in '58. The music and the charisma of these guys set the standard for rock and roll frontmen.

I don't believe Cole's comments pertain entirely to the quality of material or performances, but more to how, as success became a reality, the dynamic inside the band changed forever. Consider the weaknesses of the mortal frame on the 75 tour, the Plant family car accident, heroin, the Oakland incident, and the deaths of Karac and Bonzo , and you've got different era with completely different vibes. Like in all relationships, there's a honeymoon phase until ultimately reality starts seeping through the cracks. Led Zeppelin just had one hell of a honeymoon. By the end of the 1973 tour, it (the honeymoon) was over.

Dark Lord, you ignorant slut. There's finally a thread for the great lost song Fire and you use it to grandstand a crackpot theory about some phantom Jimmy Page misstep. Maybe you should find a Radioactive thread to fall apart in. But first, isn't it the very riff you're complaining about now that you thought connected Radioactive to Fire?