Piracy on the High Seas!

[eternal light]

RE: "The Somali Army was decimated and Somalia sought the help of the United States. Although the Carter Administration had expressed interest in helping Somalia, it later declined, as did American allies in the Middle East and Asia."

Yes, they were wronged. Yes many pirates use this as a reason for their actions, however justified or not. But piracy has been going on for many years. Why this great ten-fold escalation this year alone? Again, I'm not discounting the impact of past grievances and betrayals, just questioning their use as primary motivation for the most recent attacks. And if it were only about getting rid of foreigners in their territory, why ransom and release? It seems they're pulled by economics and no jobs at home as much as anything else.

Well, after the civil war...

The Somali Civil War Main article: Somali Civil War

By 1978, the moral authority of the Somali government had collapsed. Many Somalis had become disillusioned with life under military dictatorship and the regime was weakened further in the 1980s as the Cold War drew to a close and Somalia's strategic importance was diminished. The government became increasingly totalitarian, and resistance movements, encouraged by Ethiopia, sprang up across the country, eventually leading to the Somali Civil War.

...the CIA became an issue.

The Islamic Courts Union accused the U.S. of funding the warlords through the Central Intelligence Agency and supplying them with arms in an effort to prevent the Islamic Courts Union from gaining power. The United States Department of State, while neither admitting nor denying this, said the U.S. had taken no action that violated the international arms embargo of Somalia.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

Essentially Somalia is telling everyone that unless your ancestors come from Somalia, stay away until we ourselves who are from here from thousands of years ago determine our destiny.

Somalia will invite others in later maybe. They've got their 'keep out' and 'do not disturb' signs on the door to their home where their ancestors date back centuries.

[Patrycja]

OK, I'll ask this again: Why this great ten-fold escalation this year alone? Again, I'm not discounting the impact of past grievances and betrayals, just questioning their use as primary motivation for the most recent attacks.

Are you saying that their problems with the CIA is the sole reason for the rampant piracy? The domestic turmoil that isn't being taken care of in Somalia should not be blamed solely on that, don't you think? The pirates themselves, in tv interviews on the news said that they could not make money at home because even when there was work, they were not assured of being paid, and so resort to piracy because of big, consistent payoffs.

I am curious to see how the future sea raids are handled.

[eternal light]

OK, I'll ask this again: Why this great ten-fold escalation this year alone? Again, I'm not discounting the impact of past grievances and betrayals, just questioning their use as primary motivation for the most recent attacks.

Are you saying that their problems with the CIA is the sole reason for the rampant piracy? The domestic turmoil that isn't being taken care of in Somalia should not be blamed solely on that, don't you think? The pirates themselves, in tv interviews on the news said that they could not make money at home because even when there was work, they were not assured of being paid, and so resort to piracy because of big, consistent payoffs.

I am curious to see how the future sea raids are handled.

The area is actively unstable, otherwise known as being possibly Al-Qaeda influenced. And so without further ado, coming to Somalia from the halls of Montezuma, ladies and gentleman, the United States Marines.

The southern half of the country, with the bulk of the population, as of November 2007, is unstable, following the 2006 civil war between the Transitional Government and the Islamic Courts Union.

Westerners and those working for western organisations continue to be targets of the violence. Two aid workers, one British and the other Kenyan, were abducted in Puntland on 8 May 2007 and a western nurse and her escort were shot dead in Mogadishu on 17 September 2006.

The inhabitants of Sool, Sanaag and Cayn regions of Northern Somalia have announced the formation of a new political party – Northern Somali Unionist Movement (NSUM), a grass roots Somali organization whose members and supporters hail from Sool, Sanaag and Cayn regions in the Northern regions of Somalia (formerly British Somaliland) and whose clan in these regions do not identify with the Somaliland secession. NSUM stands for the promotion of peace and unity among all people of Somalia.

In late February, 2009, fighting between Islamists & AU peacekeepers resulted in 69 dead.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia

[Patrycja]

So, EL, am I correct in understanding that we're not actually disagreeing? What we're saying complements, rather contradicts, yes? Otherwise, I'm afraid you're losing me with all the Wiki links. I get your point, but don't feel mine were addressed. Maybe I'm just not communicating well here...

[eternal light]

So, EL, am I correct in understanding that we're not actually disagreeing? What we're saying complements, rather contradicts, yes? Otherwise, I'm afraid you're losing me with all the Wiki links. I get your point, but don't feel mine were addressed. Maybe I'm just not communicating well here...

And if you and I are not communicating, it is hardly any wonder that others find it problematic.

I'm just trying to better understand the situation. I'm thinking this could be another opportunity for Rodney King to bring his message, either him or this guy.

Everyday when we turn on the news we always hear bad news from Somalia for the past eighteen years, starvation, killings ...and things that you cannot imagine.

Just imagine...no police station, no taxes, no schools.

Do we even exist? Oh no we do not even discuss this question. Instead we keep talking the very same thing that disunites us. In Mogadishu today there are certain things that we are not allowed to say.

You cannot say maybe ~~~~ mujeen was corrupt but they are the best mujeen we have so far. Oh no, do not even try to say that.

Some people are even ignorant about what they are doing in Mogadishu. Or maybe that's the best thing they can offer Mogadishu by displacing thousands of people every f&)^ing day, telling people to leave Mogadishu because they are not from clan this and that.

When is someone from those tribes going to stand up and say, look we tried to eliminate some tribes from Somalia, but we could not succeed. And we tried to eliminate each other but we could not succeed.

So why do we keep saying the same b&((@*^...but in Mogadishu we call it freedom.

Some people will brag by killing 200 people and burning down part of Mogadishu in less than two hours. They think they are doing something good, something terrific. How can we tell those ~ that's not good, that is wrong?

By the way you could

okay in 1982 you could kill as many thousand men as you can that was okay at that time. What are you talking about? You do not know that?

Today, maybe Mogadishu is getting better as we can see. People are tired of losing their kids because they were told they were freedom fighters. People find out their kids did not save Mogadishu. They're destroying Mogadishu.

Oh my friend you are not even allowed to mention the ~ that destroy Mogadishu. This same Mogadishu was destroying every ~ she had.

When are the people who are displaced from their own homes would say this, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore?"

That's how much I feel. I'm ~~~ and you will hear me from a lot of videos coming up. I'll see you later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahHiy78eokM

[BIGDAN]

And if you and I are not communicating, it is hardly any wonder that others find it problematic.

I'm just trying to better understand the situation. I'm thinking this could be another opportunity for Rodney King to bring his message, either him or this guy.

Hi 'eternal light'

If you wanna know anything about Somalis or Somalia i can get first hand info from my son, he has many Somali friends in Woolwich, just ask away.

Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

Hi 'eternal light'

If you wanna know anything about Somalis or Somalia i can get first hand info from my son, he has many Somali friends in Woolwich, just ask away.

Regards, Danny

Thank you, Danny, I would ask, please describe what Somalia was like before the war?

Meanwhile, from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli and so on...

United States Marines Training for Amphibious Landing in Somalia

[Patrycja]

And if you and I are not communicating, it is hardly any wonder that others find it problematic.

I'm just trying to better understand the situation. I'm thinking this could be another opportunity for Rodney King to bring his message, either him or this guy.

Well, that's something we agree on Thanks for posting what he said in writing because he was difficult to understand. Anyway, I'm still not sure why you think $$ isn't also why the pirates are pillaging given the instability and turmoil on their home soil, but I'm glad to be learning more about this issue.

[eternal light]

Well, that's something we agree on Thanks for posting what he said in writing because he was difficult to understand. Anyway, I'm still not sure why you think $$ isn't also why the pirates are pillaging given the instability and turmoil on their home soil, but I'm glad to be learning more about this issue.

I did not mention the subject of $$, but now that you have done so.

I wonder how you get by on $550.00 yearly in Somalia.

The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports that in 2001 Somalia's gross domestic product (GDP) was estimated at $4.1 billion. The per capita GDP was estimated at $550.

nationsencyclopedia.com/Africa/Somalia-INCOME

[Patrycja]

I did not mention the subject of $$, but now that you have done so...

Well I thought I've been mentioning it all along, and thought that your posts were countering the $$ side of why they attack foreign ships. Sorry but I don't get what you're saying with that link. Can you please explain how it impacts (or not) the current piracy issues? Does it go to explain the rampant increase in any way?

[eternal light]

Well I thought I've been mentioning it all along, and thought that your posts were countering the $$ side of why they attack foreign ships. Sorry but I don't get what you're saying with that link. Can you please explain how it impacts (or not) the current piracy issues? Does it go to explain the rampant increase in any way?

I would say the need and greed factor feeds into the rise in piracy. If the poverty level is significant, the demand for income, goods and services will be high, whereas the ability to earn may be low.

Somalia appears to have a balance of imports and exports. But if you compare the debt in 1998-2000 to the gross domestic product (GDP) for 1995, they are nearly a two thirds ratio. They may not quite be a debtor nation, but they may be sort of hovering.

Volume in terms of dollars is low.

Piracy = get rich quick.

It also increases access to modern ships that they won't need to trade for or build themselves. They only need to commandeer the existing vessels, which they may even learn how to navigate at some point if any are skilled in sailing watercraft. I can't hazard a guess as to how long it would take for them to understand the technology that guides the ships.

Imagine the scenario if they were to decipher the technology on a pirated United States Navy destroyer. Fun. Conceivably they could become a major maritime power if they were to advance substantially in their techno smarts.

Historically, the Phoenicians who supposedly inhabited the area were seafaring, and were one of the ancient cultures that thrived in the area long ago.

Piracy increases access to trade in terms of ransoms demanded and vessels commandeered.

So $$ is part of it, and historical lifestyle may also provide a reason. It's their way of competing in the world marketplace and arguably has been so centuries ago.

Economic Indicators -- Somalia

Gross Domestic Product, 2000 Somalia

Sub-

Saharan

Africa World

GDP in million constant 1995 US dollars X 362,493 34,109,900

Official Development Assistance (ODA ) and Financial Flows

Total external debt, million $US, 1998-2000 {b} 2,601 224,885

earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_library/country_profiles/eco_cou_706.pdf

An examination of the voyages and activities of Phoenicians in the West Africa

Everything to do with the Periplus (= Voyage) of Necho really starts and ends with what Herodotus (5^th c. B.C. Greek) says on the matter, thus:

by Harry Bourne

"Libya, we know is lapped by the sea by the sea on all sides, except where it adjoins Asia. This was discovered by King Necos, who on stopping the building of a canal linking the River Nile and the Erythraean Sea, sent a fleet manned by Phoenicians to sea and ordered them to return by way of the Pillars of Herakles, the Mediterranean Sea and home to Egypt. They left via the Erythraean Sea and sailed into the southern sea. When autumn came, they landed, sowed a crop, harvested it and departed. Two whole years passed and not till the third year did they sight the Pillars of Herakles and made their way home. On their return, they declared that when sailing round Libya, the sun was on their right. This I do not believe."

phoenicia.org/phoewestafrica

(VII) A suggestion accepted by such as Margaret Murray (The Splendour that was Egypt 1977) plus others was that some Egyptian ships trading between Egypt and somewhere called Ta-Neter (= God's-Land)/Punt (= ?Djibouti/Somalia north of the Horn of Africa) actually came south of the Horn. French opinion cited by Cary/ Warmington (ib) has it that Pre-Necho Phoenicians had attempted/(?) achieved the rounding of Africa.

[wanna be drummer]

Hi wannabe, nice to see you,

People are not paying enough attention to my post, my concern is the way the Pirates were taken out, under a flag of truce, not a good way to go about business in my opinion. The rest, i agree with. Buy the way, did you read the link at the beginning about why these people are turning piracy in the first place, i did and now i take a completely different stance on it, how about you.

Regards, Danny

I understand why people become pirates, but I do not think that it justifies their actions at all.

Anyways, where was this flag of truth? First I've heard about it. And if they wanted a truce so badly, why did they have AK-47s and pistols pointed at the Captain when they were being fired upon? They weren't going for a "truce". They were probably waiting for soldiers to negotiate the ransom, which is not a truce.

[Hotplant]

Pirates?? More like sea THUGS.

I still picture pirates as I did in books and movies....Johnny Depp like.

These guys are reminiscent of LA street gangs only on the sea.

I heard on the news in passing the one they took to NYC was crying like a widdle baby.

F$%#ers!

[eternal light]

True. It seems that he has started to realize that he may be in some trouble.

He has a good mother though. She disapproves of piracy and calls it the work of devils. She said that she was pleased with his arrest and pleaded for his release.

I guess they could establish a juvenile detention center in Somalia to handle the errant 16 year old pirates and make those kids behave.

Put Hotplant in charge. Bet they'd shape up right away.

[BIGDAN]

I understand why people become pirates, but I do not think that it justifies their actions at all.

Anyways, where was this flag of truth? First I've heard about it. And if they wanted a truce so badly, why did they have AK-47s and pistols pointed at the Captain when they were being fired upon? They weren't going for a "truce". They were probably waiting for soldiers to negotiate the ransom, which is not a truce.

Hi wannabe

I dont want to get in to a big argument about this, all my information is from TV and the Internet, i was under the impression that one Pirate was negotiating on board the USS Bainbridge, this puts him and the other three under a "Flag of Truce" in my opinion. When he decieded not to return to the life raft the decision was given to take the other three Pirates out.

I dont have any problem with the way Countries deal with the Pirates in this way, but when you go back on your word and kill people while they think that the "Truce" still stands then you are asking for trouble. What you gain in the short term you loose heavily in the long term, there are over 200 people that the Pirates have in captivity whos lives were not taken in to consideration.

And if you now look at this link you might get behind the reason why the Somalis are turning to Piracy in the first place, what are European (Spanish) fisherman doing in Somali waters in the first place? I know that on the west coast of Africia European fishermen are using ships that suck up the fish stocks and are depriving local fishermen of not only a living but of their only staple food and many are starving.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/artic...kB3pyigStUBMgQA

Regards, Danny

PS, I dont defend Piracy, but we in England went to war with Iceland over fishing rights in the 1970s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cod_Wars Spain has been a leading nation in over fishing in British waters and off the coast of Africia for decades, there i think lies the trouble.

[BIGDAN]

Thank you, Danny, I would ask, please describe what Somalia was like before the war?

Hi 'eternal light'

I'll get back as soon as is possible, i can tell you one thing though, since the Somalis came to England back in the early 90s they have taken over the street drug dealing so much so that where they are, they are mostly unoposed, my sons have told me that they have no fear of anyone, Police, authority or other gangs and have been responsible for the major rise in gun crime in my area, and that is offical according to the Police.

Regards, Danny

PS. In the mean time try these links.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Somalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogaden_War

[Patrycja]

I would say the need and greed factor feeds into the rise in piracy. If the poverty level is significant, the demand for income, goods and services will be high, whereas the ability to earn may be low.

Somalia appears to have a balance of imports and exports. But if you compare the debt in 1998-2000 to the gross domestic product (GDP) for 1995, they are nearly a two thirds ratio. They may not quite be a debtor nation, but they may be sort of hovering.

Volume in terms of dollars is low.

Piracy = get rich quick.

It also increases access to modern ships that they won't need to trade for or build themselves. They only need to commandeer the existing vessels, which they may even learn how to navigate at some point if any are skilled in sailing watercraft. I can't hazard a guess as to how long it would take for them to understand the technology that guides the ships.

Imagine the scenario if they were to decipher the technology on a pirated United States Navy destroyer. Fun. Conceivably they could become a major maritime power if they were to advance substantially in their techno smarts.

Historically, the Phoenicians who supposedly inhabited the area were seafaring, and were one of the ancient cultures that thrived in the area long ago.

Piracy increases access to trade in terms of ransoms demanded and vessels commandeered.

So $$ is part of it, and historical lifestyle may also provide a reason. It's their way of competing in the world marketplace and arguably has been so centuries ago.

Agree with just about entire post, well said. As for the bold part, it also doesn't help that when there is work to be found, the pay for it is not consistent. Imagine getting paid by-weekly or whatever and every so often there would be no pay. It's the trickle down effect of a combination of factors you and I have mentioned - economic, political, ethnic.

I have to say my understanding of the Phoenicians was quite different from what you've brought up - not contrary, just not as comprehensive.

Yeah, scary stuff if they get technological toys to aid their raids...thanks for the info

And BIGDAN, details are certainly sketchy when they're coming in almost as something's happening, and when the mission is information sensitive. My question, though, is whether or not you know if it is ok to hold a hostage while calling a truce? I don't know sea protocol, but it seems contradictory, like the one negates the right of the other.

[BIGDAN]

And BIGDAN, details are certainly sketchy when they're coming in almost as something's happening, and when the mission is information sensitive. My question, though, is whether or not you know if it is ok to hold a hostage while calling a truce? I don't know sea protocol, but it seems contradictory, like the one negates the right of the other.

Hi 'Patrycja'

Yea i know what your saying, in everything i've every read or known about this type of situation once you get in to negotiations a truce is almost always observed, this is not the way you might deal with hostage taking in the US in general, but these guys have friends who also have hostages.

Now what would peoples opinion have been if their friends had started to execute thier hostages because the US had not observed the ceasefire, its a can of worms that i wish had not been opened. As Churchill once said "Its better to jaw, jaw, jaw than war, war ,war" if there was no other way then what happened would be justifed, but these Pirates did not have a death wish and only wanted to make some money, i say give them the money, get the Captain back then go deal with the Pirates. With all the technology we have today they could have been tracked somehow so that they could not get away with it.

Regards, Danny

[redrum]

Dear Mother, please don't worry about me as I am in a warm, comfortable cell with lots of good food to eat plus satellite tv and a computer. Tomorrow I will go to the dentist to fix all my teeth. I feel like a Somali-Dog Millionaire!! Take care and I love you.

Muse

[Patrycja]

Hi 'Patrycja'

Yea i know what your saying, in everything i've every read or known about this type of situation once you get in to negotiations a truce is almost always observed, this is not the way you might deal with hostage taking in the US in general, but these guys have friends who also have hostages.

Now what would peoples opinion have been if their friends had started to execute thier hostages because the US had not observed the ceasefire, its a can of worms that i wish had not been opened. As Churchill once said "Its better to jaw, jaw, jaw than war, war ,war" if there was no other way then what happened would be justifed, but these Pirates did not have a death wish and only wanted to make some money, i say give them the money, get the Captain back then go deal with the Pirates. With all the technology we have today they could have been tracked somehow so that they could not get away with it.

Regards, Danny

Yeah, that's the dilemma - how to take your stand without escalating the violence. Like you said, if it was a last resort to shoot them, then so be it. But hopefully it won't escalate to an all out violent domination; that just makes people more resentful, pissed off and gunning for revenge. Ok now I have to go eat something before I pass out. Thanks for your links, too, I'm learning a lot about this conflict.

[eternal light]

They could not idly stand by and watch the pirates kill the captain. He was tied up, unable to defend himself, and one of the pirates had an AK-47 aimed at the captain's back. This after the pirates had repeatedly warned that they would kill the captain. He was in imminent danger for his life.

[Mangani]

So piracy becomes a big issue now.......even though it has been going on for ages?

Just like terrorism suddenly became a big issue after 9/11........even though it had been going on for ages?

I see.

[BIGDAN]

So piracy becomes a big issue now.......even though it has been going on for ages?

Just like terrorism suddenly became a big issue after 9/11........even though it had been going on for ages?

I see.

Hi 'Mangani'

The only link i see there is "Americia".

If Americia and the West had got its foreign policy right in the first place then this might never have happened.

"The Two Piracies in Somalia: Why the World Ignores the Other?"

Please read this link, its says more about us in the West than anything i've ever read before, to me it proves that we were the Pirates long before the Somalis reacted to their fishstocks being plundered.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/2229407/posts

Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

Yeah, that's the dilemma - how to take your stand without escalating the violence. Like you said, if it was a last resort to shoot them, then so be it. But hopefully it won't escalate to an all out violent domination; that just makes people more resentful, pissed off and gunning for revenge. Ok now I have to go eat something before I pass out. Thanks for your links, too, I'm learning a lot about this conflict.

Hi 'Patrycja'

Shareing and learning is what this forum is all about, glad to have opened our eyes a little bit.

Oh and before we forget, Led Zeppelin were Pirates before they became affluent.

Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

It may help in the future if the pirates would please consider that if they threaten to kill one of our people, tie him up and aim an AK-47 at his back we might need to act in reasonable defense of others.

South Park - Season 13 Episode 7 "Fatbeard" - Somali Pirate Speech

Pirate: Excuse me, can I ask you a question?

Butters: Oh... Sure, Goodlead! (??)

Pirate: Why did you Americans come here?

Butters: Well cuz our lives sucked back home! We had all these rules, and homework!

Ike: Yeah, homework!

Butters: And our parents hollered at us!

Ike: Yeah!

Butters: So we wanted to come here and be pirates!

Ike: Pirates!

Pirate: But that's what I do not understand. Why would anyone WANT to be a pirate?

Butters: ...Huh?

Pirate: Everyday, I DREAM that I can go to school, learn about the world, but my mother, she is dying of AIDS and there is no money for medicine. My father was killed trying to find food for us. Do you know how I feel everytime we try to capture a boat? Scared. I'm not just scared because I might get killed, but scared because if I don't get something out of it, my family and friends are going to die! I don't WANT to be a pirate, I don't see how ANYBODY would!

And now, courtesy of the youtube reverend...

Nuclear Waste On The Somali Coast