Religions

[zosoman11]

Not really. I remember Robert once(In the Zeppelin days) saying Jimmy was actually glad that people believed in those mysteries and didn't come to know the real him, he kinda enjoyed the misled image and felt more relieved behind it.

But it was NOT for sale.

Glic;

If it wasn't for sale then why the pressings on the third album?

Why just symbols on the fourth?

Like it or not, the mysteries and intrigue were all bought, so it didn't matter if it was for sale.

[glicine]

Glic;

If it wasn't for sale then why the pressings on the third album?

Why just symbols on the fourth?

Like it or not, the mysteries and intrigue were all bought, so it didn't matter if it was for sale.

Now I can't stop laughing.

And you said you were not insisting that was a marketing ploy?

[ninelives]

Glic;

If it wasn't for sale then why the pressings on the third album?

Why just symbols on the fourth?

Like it or not, the mysteries and intrigue were all bought, so it didn't matter if it was for sale.

Maybe it was just what they wanted to do - no ulterior motive i.e. sales. They clearly didn't need to do anything gimmicky to sell records because the music was that fantastic and popular.

[zosoman11]

How does one sell something without marketing something?

There is a business side to the music industry. Look at all the ways Zeppelin has been copied, not just musically, but even the look, the jets, the racecars, the parties. That means that Zeppelin was successfully marketed. How many guitarist started playing a Gibson les paul after Jimmy Page, or stopped holding a guitar like the Beatles and slung it "way down low". That's image marketing.

That takes nothing away from the music. The music is still the most important part of the business. But successfull bands also sell image and persona. Thus posters, banners, flags.

How many fans tried to buy all the album pictures for ITTOD for their collections? Remember it was originally put in a paper bag cover, so you never knew what cover you got. Thats marketing and it worked and it was for sale.

[longdistancewinner]

They said that they didn't release IV under a name, or whatever, because they were fed up with the critics. They wanted people to make up their own minds.

"Well, Led Zeppelin IV! That's it really. I'll tell you why the album had no title - because we were so fed up with the reactions to the third album, that people couldn't understand why that record wasn't a direct continuation of the second album. And then people said we were a hype and all, which was the furthest thing from what we were. So we just said, `let's put out an album with no title at all!' That way, either people like it or they don't... but we still got bad reviews!" - Jimmy Page, Guitar World, 1/91.

The point is they were trying to distance themselves from the press, not live up to the image created for them. The were never a band that lived up to a particular myth, they avoided the press because they had the intelligence to see that they could (and would) succeed by their music, and not their supposed 'bad boy' reputation.

[zosoman11]

Now I can't stop laughing.

And you said you were not insisting that was a marketing ploy?

I am insisting they were successfully marketed. Any ploy, by the fans or band, was still bought. We ain't gonna agree on this one either mi amigo. More wine?

[zosoman11]

They said that they didn't release IV under a name, or whatever, because they were fed up with the critics. They wanted people to make up their own minds.

"Well, Led Zeppelin IV! That's it really. I'll tell you why the album had no title - because we were so fed up with the reactions to the third album, that people couldn't understand why that record wasn't a direct continuation of the second album. And then people said we were a hype and all, which was the furthest thing from what we were. So we just said, `let's put out an album with no title at all!' That way, either people like it or they don't... but we still got bad reviews!" - Jimmy Page, Guitar World, 1/91.

The point is they were trying to distance themselves from the press, not live up to the image created for them. The were never a band that lived up to a particular myth, they avoided the press because they had the intelligence to see that they could (and would) succeed by their music, and not their supposed 'bad boy' reputation.

Putting an album out with no mention of your band on it, in and of itself, IS a marketing ploy. An incredibly far sighted and genious one at that.

[ninelives]

How does one sell something without marketing something?

There is a business side to the music industry. Look at all the ways Zeppelin has been copied, not just musically, but even the look, the jets, the racecars, the parties. That means that Zeppelin was successfully marketed. How many guitarist started playing a Gibson les paul after Jimmy Page, or stopped holding a guitar like the Beatles and slung it "way down low". That's image marketing.

That takes nothing away from the music. The music is still the most important part of the business. But successfull bands also sell image and persona. Thus posters, banners, flags.

How many fans tried to buy all the album pictures for ITTOD for their collections? Remember it was originally put in a paper bag cover, so you never knew what cover you got. Thats marketing and it worked and it was for sale.

I'm well aware of the business side to the music industry. Zep didn't go out of their way to market themselves because word of mouth and the fan base that was huge did it for them. As LDW said, they were sick of the negativity from the press so they basically stuck it to them and did what they did.

Edited April 27, 2009 by ninelives

[zosoman11]

So going on tour is not a way to market your albums?

[ninelives]

So going on tour is not a way to market your albums?

You are talking two different issues here. You started this discussion implying all the rumours and mystique were calculated to drive sales. We're saying that isn't the case. I'm not saying they didn't do things like tour or sell t-shirts and posters.

This is like running in circles. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[zosoman11]

You are right and we are taking away from the original thread. Can we agree on this statement?

Led Zeppelin, the greatest rock band the world has ever seen, sold a gazillion albums because the music was incredibly awesome and will always be. There were rumors about the band, and some fans, some ill informed, including this poster, bought many of these albums numerous times becuase of said rumors. If the music wasn't great, zosoman11 himself, would not have bought three CODAS just to cut the pictures out of two of them and tape them to his bedroom walls so that chicks could dig him. Nor would his dungeons and dragons friends have bought HOUSES OF THE HOLY if previous mentioned zosoman11 didn't tell them that the album's cover featured Roberts daughter. Furthermore, said poster is himself guilty, of buying another SYMBOLS album, just so he can hang it over his dressor, because his buddy told him that Jimmy's castle is in the distance.

Have a laugh guys, take care.

[longdistancewinner]

Putting an album out with no mention of your band on it, in and of itself, IS a marketing ploy. An incredibly far sighted and genious one at that.

Well, yeah, but it's not a marketing ploy on the basis of what you were originally speaking of. It was a marketing ploy to distance themselves from the bad press/myths, etc - not to further embellish it.

You say all those dark rumours are what made fans go out and buy their albums, well how can anyone buy their 'IV' album on the basis of those rumours? They wouldn't have known who made the record.

[granmastaj.zeppelin]

Didn't Goth end in the early 80's with Alien Sex Fiend, The Damned's "Black Album", & the Cure's "Pornography"?

Saw "Twillight", is this what Goth has come to, sensitive "vegetarian" vampires with Romeo complex's? I realize the movie & books are basically a depressed, overly romantic, black lipstick wearing chubby teenage girls' ideal fantasy of what love & life could be, but that was really the worst movie I ever sat through (and don't tell me that the books are better because that's like comparing shit to vomit). It was really awful. Give me Ally Sheedy in "The Breakfast Club" anyday.

Anyway, what this has to do with whether John Paul Jones practised Santeria or whether Bonzo was a Jew For Jesus I'll never know.

LMAO

[wanna be drummer]

How does one sell something without marketing something?

That's for the producer and record company to deal with, not the band.

[zosoman11]

Well, yeah, but it's not a marketing ploy on the basis of what you were originally speaking of. It was a marketing ploy to distance themselves from the bad press/myths, etc - not to further embellish it.

You say all those dark rumours are what made fans go out and buy their albums, well how can anyone buy their 'IV' album on the basis of those rumours? They wouldn't have known who made the record.

No, my friends, the music in and of itself is what made Zeppelin what it was. What made them unique and different was the fact that the rumors were never dispelled, thereby allowing the cult following for their fan base, which allowed more dedicated fans. It was always the music. But the rumors, mystery, and intrigue made them more cool, which allowed more merchandise to be sold. We aint gonna agree, all I can tell you is why my friends and I bought so many of the same albums, then tapes, then cd's then remastered cd's, then box sets, then remastered dvd's when vhs went out. Or why we would wait in line to see TSRTS movie, at midnight, again, and again. And still cheered at the same parts.

I'll say it again. You can not look at Zeppelin in todays standards. You have to put yourself into the spectrum of when you bought your first ALBUM for my posts to make sense. Take Care, lets not beat a dead horse.

[zosoman11]

That's for the producer and record company to deal with, not the band.

Wrong. Jimmy produced everyone of their albums. The contracts with Atlantic stated that Zeppelin had control of everything in regards to an albums release, including album cover art. They even got so big that they formed their own album label-thus Swan Song records and tapes.

[zosoman11]

Well, yeah, but it's not a marketing ploy on the basis of what you were originally speaking of. It was a marketing ploy to distance themselves from the bad press/myths, etc - not to further embellish it.

You say all those dark rumours are what made fans go out and buy their albums, well how can anyone buy their 'IV' album on the basis of those rumours? They wouldn't have known who made the record.

"Dude they are so cool they didn't even put their name on it" See the marketing point now? Even better, they didn't put their name on their best album. It is pure genious from a sales standpoint.

[zosoman11]

This topic should end with this last point:

Please do not tell me that the mystery, intrigue, rumors, and symbolism of the band did not add to their popularity when most of us have these same symbols either in our user names or tattooed on our bodies.

The band, to their credit, used this to market themselves and their merchandise. Good for them. It was the best music ever and they deserved to be paid for it, however it was sold.

[wanna be drummer]

Wrong. Jimmy produced everyone of their albums. The contracts with Atlantic stated that Zeppelin had control of everything in regards to an albums release, including album cover art. They even got so big that they formed their own album label-thus Swan Song records and tapes.

You're missing the point. He produced the albums so that they could have complete control over their music. It is a band's job to make the music, and the record company to sell it.

[wanna be drummer]

"Dude they are so cool they didn't even put their name on it" See the marketing point now? Even better, they didn't put their name on their best album. It is pure genious from a sales standpoint.

All I'm getting from this is that you don't accept that their music sold the way it did without the help of business tactics. Zep was a band, none of them were the business geniuses that Jagger or Gene Simmons are, and i don't believe they actually thought of the best ways to sell their music themselves, if at all.

You are giving them far too much credit. it's almost as if you went out of your way to find ways to explain how their music sold. Everything that bands do (most bands anyways) relate to their music and tell a story. The cover of an album is not just randomly done, it almost always have some sort of meaning. It is done to relate to the music (usually), not to simply sell as much as humanly possible (usually).

[Reggie29]

As I understand it, the logic behind the "no names" album was to see if it stood up because of the music and not just the hype of the band.

It had nothing to do with marketing to sell more albums, on the contrary, it was an experiment (aimed at record executives I'd wager), to see if the album would sell purely on the strength of the music alone.

[zosoman11]

This topic should be moved to a new thread, "the business side of Zeppelin" or something. I know that the band negotiated an incredible deal with Atlantic when they first formed. I know that they were granted incredible lisence to pursue their art.

The music had to stand on it's own to be sold, not disputing that. I am just saying that the rumors, parties, mysteries, added to the popularity of the band.

Here's another example: Chicago 1977, Jimmy wore Nazi uniform parts while on stage. He said it was for art. Sure, but how many posters and tshirts were sold with the "Jimmy Stormtrooper" picture on it?

Record sales is only one way in which a band gets paid.

[Aquamarine]

This topic should end with this last point:

Please do not tell me that the mystery, intrigue, rumors, and symbolism of the band did not add to their popularity when most of us have these same symbols either in our user names or tattooed on our bodies.

The symbolism the band used has nothing to do with your point about ridiculous rumors which started this debate--namely, when you said we'd all believed and circulated these rumors when we were younger. Seems we weren't all as gullible as you--and have better understanding of how the music business works. A lot of things were used to sell Zeppelin's music--rumors of Satanism weren't among them.

And what does Jimmy's outfit in Chicago (where did he say it was for art?) have to do with anything? People took pictures of them in pretty much every outfit they wore. Lots of bands have stage clothes, I don't see how it affects record sales.

Edited April 28, 2009 by Aquamarine

[longdistancewinner]

I'll say it again. You can not look at Zeppelin in todays standards. You have to put yourself into the spectrum of when you bought your first ALBUM for my posts to make sense. Take Care, lets not beat a dead horse.

You're right, you do have to remind yourself of your first album - and mine had zero to do with mystery. It had everything to do with Trampled Underfoot, however.

As much as you want to argue for it, the only people who buy into the whole mystery/intrigue hoo-hah are the clueless fans who let themselves be bought into it. You believed it was Robert's daughter on HOTH, you believed Jimmy lived in a castle, etc. You let something like that dictate your decision to buy an album, yet none of it is true. All the rumours that circulated during their time were complete hearsay, imo, the rest (and worst) of them came after John died. You can either let yourself be bought into them, or you can decide which is more important - your theories of good marketing, or their music. I know which I prefer. And believe.

"Dude they are so cool they didn't even put their name on it" See the marketing point now? Even better, they didn't put their name on their best album. It is pure genious from a sales standpoint.

They were so fed up they didn't put their name on it. Did you miss the Jimmy quote? They didn't want all the hype surrounding them because they knew they were better than that.

And, it's only their 'best' album in hindsight - how are you supposed to know how good something is when you have no knowledge of it? It's not 'pure genius', because there was every chance the album would've flopped. From a sales standpoint it's risky as shit - they were leaving everything to chance and we got to decide.

[glicine]

Ah well, everyone is perfectly entitled to believe what he wants to believe, but please, don't state one's opinion simply as fact, that's all.