JimmyPageZoSo56 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I would have liked to see Dazed and Confused in the Guitar Solos place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I would have liked to see Dazed and Confused in the Guitar Solos place. According to a quote by Jimmy, he wasn't "dazed and confused" anymore! Plus that makes the show waaaaaay too long and also the musical portion where they played "Woodstock" during D&C in '75 ended up being a part of the framework for Achillies' Last Stand, so that wouldn't work anymore. Some things run their course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 According to a quote by Jimmy, he wasn't "dazed and confused" anymore! True, I think "Ripped & Shitfaced" was more like it. (just kidding...I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler19 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 My only complaints about the 1977 tour was that the band (and especially Jimmy) was getting too good in the studio. Songs that should have been seminal live numbers, like In My Time of Dying, Kashmir and Achilles Last Stand became recreations. I think In My Time of Dying was hurt the most by being so well thought out in studio. If the studio version had rang it at the five or six minute mark then the live twelve minute version would have blown everyone away. Achilles Last Stand is so epic on Presence that the live versions, I feel are mostly about trying to recapture the studio moments. Again, if this were a six minute song on Presence and became the ten minute juggernaut live that it is, it would have been the crowning moment in just about every 1977 show. Kashmir had the strength to stand on it's own but there's nothing exceptional added to the song when performed live. I prefer it live but only because I always get the feeling of "oh my God, I love hearing this live". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzyEric Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 the musical portion where they played "Woodstock" during D&C in '75 ended up being a part of the framework for Achillies' Last Stand, so that wouldn't work anymore. care to elaborate on this? The San Francisco / Woodstock sections guitar is some of my favorite of Pages. Sounds like wahwah to me. I never connected it much to ALS though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snapper Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 My only complaints about the 1977 tour was that the band (and especially Jimmy) was getting too good in the studio. Songs that should have been seminal live numbers, like In My Time of Dying, Kashmir and Achilles Last Stand became recreations. I think In My Time of Dying was hurt the most by being so well thought out in studio. If the studio version had rang it at the five or six minute mark then the live twelve minute version would have blown everyone away. Achilles Last Stand is so epic on Presence that the live versions, I feel are mostly about trying to recapture the studio moments. Again, if this were a six minute song on Presence and became the ten minute juggernaut live that it is, it would have been the crowning moment in just about every 1977 show. Kashmir had the strength to stand on it's own but there's nothing exceptional added to the song when performed live. I prefer it live but only because I always get the feeling of "oh my God, I love hearing this live". Hmmm... I never thought about it quite like that ..... and don't plan to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepFanatic Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 care to elaborate on this? The San Francisco / Woodstock sections guitar is some of my favorite of Pages. Sounds like wahwah to me. I never connected it much to ALS though? That whole section was the genesis for them writing ALS... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 care to elaborate on this? The San Francisco / Woodstock sections guitar is some of my favorite of Pages. Sounds like wahwah to me. I never connected it much to ALS though? When Page begins the progression of notes just before Bonham comes in with the drums and Plant begins singing you can hear it. It is difficult to put in words, especially not being a guitartist, but you can clearly hear it. Sorry for the lack of techinical terms, actually a friend of mine who is a guitarist noticed it first after listening to 5/24/75 Earl's Court D&C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom kid Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Listen to the 6/23/77 version of Achilles. Page actually plays some of the Woondstock/San Francisco section towards the end. It's totally awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepFanatic Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 When Page begins the progression of notes just before Bonham comes in with the drums and Plant begins singing you can hear it. It is difficult to put in words, especially not being a guitartist, but you can clearly hear it. Sorry for the lack of techinical terms, actually a friend of mine who is a guitarist noticed it first after listening to 5/24/75 Earl's Court D&C. It actually dates from the '73 versions of Dazed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPageZoSo56 Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 According to a quote by Jimmy, he wasn't "dazed and confused" anymore! Plus that makes the show waaaaaay too long and also the musical portion where they played "Woodstock" during D&C in '75 ended up being a part of the framework for Achillies' Last Stand, so that wouldn't work anymore. Some things run their course... Why would it be waaaaay to long? Moby Dick was around a good 20-30 minutes. Roughly the same as Dazed and Confused and the shows were about three hours anyway. I know Achilles has the same frame work but they were dinking around with that riff since 1973. they could have had Achilles on Physical Graffiti if they wanted too. I remember reading some where that ALS was being written in 1973. So to me, it wouldn't have made a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Yes, it was being worked out as early as '73, but much more obviously in '75 to me. ^ The rest of your post doesn't really make sense to me as far as substituting D&C for the guitar/bow solo leading into Achillies, like you earlier had wished for. Back to the thread topic, the video from the tour really captures what you lucky ones are saying here - the crowd, the vibe, the showmanship, and of course the musical volume (especially Bonzo) really is not captured very well in the soundboard bootlegs at all. Just the mistakes are and that is a shame. At least you all have your memories... and we have some link to the tour through other sources. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickZepp Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 They lyrics of Achilles were written after Zeppelin's break in late 73-74. But the instrumentals were started on as early as 73, you can just hear that in some live shows. Most of it was written after Plant's car accident. There's some versions of Achilles that aren't that good live but I think the live versions are pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPageZoSo56 Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Yes, it was being worked out as early as '73, but much more obviously in '75 to me. ^ The rest of your post doesn't really make sense to me as far as substituting D&C for the guitar/bow solo leading into Achillies, like you earlier had wished for. I was just making a point and just kind of talking that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walter Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I was just making a point and just kind of talking that's all. Yes, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepFanatic Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I understand what people are saying with '77...that being there it was awesome and the sound is super thin on the '77 SBDs (which I agree with)...but to complain that the SBDs expose all the mistakes (especially from Jimmy)? So the volume/lesser quality PA masked it in '77 if you were there, great, and that it sounded better, cool, but it cannot be denied that was not a good period (overall) for Jimmy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirigible Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 SBDs expose all the mistakes (especially from Jimmy)? So the volume/lesser quality PA masked it in '77 if you were there Not only soundboards reveal glitches, I heard a number of missteps at a '77 concert, not that it detracted one whit from the overall performance. Except for official releases Page has never been what Rolling Stone, the hip hop newspaper, called a paragon of precision. He's made mistakes live since the early days. The easiest ones to note in '69 are where Page, heavily involved with heat of the moment improv, misses cues provided by Jones & Bonham. The March '69 Supershow is a perfect example: the rhythm section plays a figure to set Page up and Jim keeps on jamming. You can tell he missed their set-up because when the bass and drums play a second variation of the set-up after playing ring around the rosie with Jimmy, he smashes right into it. By 1970 the band as a unit was far tighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepFanatic Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 Well yeah, as much as I love Jimmy's playing, he's always been a bit sloppy. Still, in 1977 it was beyond sloppy, although when he was on he was still the man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimmyPageZoSo56 Posted May 15, 2009 Share Posted May 15, 2009 I think the best show he played, i.m.o., is Listen to this Eddie. I think he did a great job and didn't seem to be play as sloppy and you can't really hear his mistakes. However, it is an audience recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirigible Posted May 15, 2009 Author Share Posted May 15, 2009 Well yeah, as much as I love Jimmy's playing, he's always been a bit sloppy. Still, in 1977 it was beyond sloppy, although when he was on he was still the man... Even when Pagey wasn't on he was the man; he's always been the man, ZepFanatic. I can't speak for anybody else but I'd rather hear Jim on a bad day than any other guitarist who ever picked up a pick on their best day. Here's the guy who invented the idea of using riffs to write songs, he's the only graduate of the Clapton-Beck-Page school of guitar who could actually write songs in the sixities and seventies (although Clapper got better over time, if it wasn't for cover tunes Beck wouldn't have a song to sing on his axe) and look cooler than hell while doing it. He can be compared to Elvis, the guy who invented rock and roll and all the trappings that went with it: the hair, the clothes, the moves, the black/white voice of hip rebellion. Pagey not only had great style when he was a trendsetter back in the so-called day, he was a guitar hero who played sensational lead solos. He can also be compared to the great John Coltrane who pushed the sonic boundaries of his instrument. Good Times Bad Times gets me off 40 years later, listen closely to not just the lead break, but the outro section when he plays call and response with Plant (another original) in particular the grinding notes he lets fly after Percy sings/bellows: "I know what it means to alone . . . " That's what Gil Evans called a sound innovater, and there aren't too many of those around. Note for note Jimmy Page was greater than Jimi Hendrix, I'll take Page's technique over Jimi's sound effects every day of the month. Although never as fluid as 'Slowhand' Clapton, Page had a hery-jerky style that went down well on vinyl as well as the concert stage. It's hard to fathom he was ever a session man. And there's more than just ax-murdering songwriter with an antediluvian Hollywood sense of style; Page was a producer, one of his most underrated qualities. He invented production techniques that are still used to this day. If Page possessed only one of the three guitarist/writer/producer of his triumvirate of abilities he'd still be worthy of hero worship. Those are massive achievements that should not be taken lightly or for granted. Again, as far as I'm concerned Page was, is and always will be the man---even when he's having a 'bad' day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 In regards to -achilles last stand and the 77 tour, they seemed to be forcing and yet straining in a way. this song was such a different song for them and to come right after -kashmir and -in the light, just unreal. i don't know what vibe surrounded the band at that time, but whatever it was, it seems like -achilles last stand had alot of the energy they were feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirchzep27 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I'm thinking of the frantic pace of -achilles last stand and how its sort of -led zeppelin at they're limits. musically it almost has some desperation going on as well. it makes me think of mountain climbing, or sailing in really rough conditions. with the personal state of page or bonham, who knows, but when they were going for great music like that, they were just bound to make mistakes live, especially on an epic tour like that. like with any artists, the most important thing is honesty and its there on the -presence album and the 77tour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levee Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 I would have liked to see Dazed and Confused in the Guitar Solos place. And I. And not because of it being a "Jimmy showcase" but because it was a wonderful full band song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZepFanatic Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 But D&C had been done to death by the end of '75...most of the '75 versions weren't very inspired...the song peaked in '72 and '73... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levee Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 But D&C had been done to death by the end of '75...most of the '75 versions weren't very inspired...the song peaked in '72 and '73... Well I don't think the "Guitar Solo" was very inspired either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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