TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Hot Dog does sound like some sort of parody compared the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Then so does "The Crunge", so does "D'yer Ma'ker", so does "Boogie With Stu", so does the beginning of "Bring It On Home", etc. I don't think any of them are "parodies" but a homage done tongue in cheek, it's not as Led Zeppelin were making fun of those musical styles. Obviously Zeppelin were huge rockabilly fans just by the amount of covers they did in a live context. I fail to see where this "parody" claim makes "Hot Dog" any less a song. I can list a hundred songs right now by various artists that I think are good to great & are done tongue in cheek. Music, & life for that matter, is supposed to be fun... at least when one can make it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Then so does "The Crunge", so does "D'yer Ma'ker", so does "Boogie With Stu", so does the beginning of "Bring It On Home", etc. I don't think any of them are "parodies" but a homage done tongue in cheek, it's not as Led Zeppelin were making fun of those musical styles. Obviously Zeppelin were huge rockabilly fans just by the amount of covers they did in a live context. I fail to see where this "parody" claim makes "Hot Dog" any less a song. I can list a hundred songs right now by various artists that I think are good to great & are done tongue in cheek. Music, & life for that matter, is supposed to be fun... at least when one can make it fun. All they are really doing in Hot Dog IMO is poking fun at country music whereas D'yer M'aker was a try to do something reggae. I don't see how the start of Bring it On Home was a parody in anyway because it was strong blues if you say that then you have to say most of the Zeppelin catalogue is parody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazedcat Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 All of My Love was a great tune, very different for sure but it got played to death on the radio for a good reason. Different doesn't always necessarily mean it's a bad listen. I still would love to know why Wearing and Tearing was left off the finished LP though..........Ozone Baby too for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 All they are really doing in Hot Dog IMO is poking fun at country music whereas D'yer M'aker was a try to do something reggae. I don't see how the start of Bring it On Home was a parody in anyway because it was strong blues if you say that then you have to say most of the Zeppelin catalogue is parody. I don't think they were poking "fun" at country music with "Hot Dog" because 1) it's not a country song, it's rockabilly. As a song it has more in common with Jerry Lee Lewis's "High School Confidential" then it does George Strait's "All My Ex's Live In Texas". Know the difference between genres first then you can dissect the song in question 2) I don't think Led Zeppelin were making "fun" of anything at all with "Hot Dog", in fact what they're doing is actually "having fun" with a lighthearted song, there is a difference. 3) "D'yer Ma'ker" is a pastiche of reggae & the poppier side of 50's rock 'n' roll, which to paraphrase JPJ, was fun to do but in his eyes a failed experiment... yet it's a favorite among many people. 4) The beginning of "Bring It On Home" is a direct lift off of Sonny Boy Williamson's version of "Bring It On Home" which Robert Plant sings in a old timey bloozey negro voice before actually singing in his more familar singing style. That would be called a parody... & "Bring It On Home" is not a "blues" outside of the parody/homage at the beginning, it's a hard rock song derived from the blues, again there's a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogie woogie Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Jimmy used an MXR Blue Box effect pedal during the solo to produce the octave sound (Fool in the Rain) Thanks, I've always wondered what effects he was using at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I'm still not seeing the difference between a "parody" and a homage done tounge in cheek? Given either description, how can that be considered a serious song? If I thought it were a good song then I suppose I wouldn't mind. But it doesn't sound country or rockabilly to me. It's sounds like Englishmen getting it wrong. I think in contrast, the Stones did at very good job with "Girl With Far Away Eyes" if we are talking "tounge and cheek" here. At least with that song they actually got the instrumentation correct on the steel guitar and the Telecaster, and with good vocal harmonies and interesting lyrics as well. If Zep had done it that well then I would be the first to say so, but I'm afraid they did not. Excellent point & was literally just watching the live version of "Far Away Eyes" on the Some Girls DVD. The difference between the two is that Mick Jagger is putting on an over the top Country "voice" where it's almost in a minstrel tradition, which obviously is not his regular singing style, that's a parody. Robert Plant is not doing that. What Robert Plant is doing is closer to Freddie Mercury on Queen's "Crazy Thing Called Love" as is the whole band. Both are homage's to rockabilly & not poking fun at the style. Robert is having more fun than Freddie with it but nowhere near the extent that Mick is having on "Faraway Eye's" or "Dear Doctor", another over the top Country parody done by the Stones, where "Dead Flowers" is a Country homage as Mick sings in a Country phrasing but he's not being absolutely absurd with outlandish mimicry. What it comes down to is you don't like "Hot Dog", which is fine, but that doesn't make it a weak song, you just don't like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Hot Dog over Achilles? Haha. Hahahahaha. You're yanking our chain, Kaiser, you fiendish contrarian. But I suppose it does deserve some kudos for being the main guitar tune on ITTOD. I'm not yanking anyone's chain. Given my mood I'll take "Hot Dog" over "Achilles". Given my mood I'll take "Achilles" over "Hot Dog". Neither one are my favorites in the catalogue. I'll take "Ten Years Gone" & "Dancing Days" over both of them as those are in my upper favorites. But at least you seem to acknowledge that the use or non-use of guitar is the primary reason for your likes or dislikes in Zeppelin. Again, preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I don't think they were poking "fun" at country music with "Hot Dog" because 1) it's not a country song, it's rockabilly. As a song it has more in common with Jerry Lee Lewis's "High School Confidential" then it does George Strait's "All My Ex's Live In Texas". Know the difference between genres first then you can dissect the song in question 2) I don't think Led Zeppelin were making "fun" of anything at all with "Hot Dog", in fact what they're doing is actually "having fun" with a lighthearted song, there is a difference. 3) "D'yer Ma'ker" is a pastiche of reggae & the poppier side of 50's rock 'n' roll, which to paraphrase JPJ, was fun to do but in his eyes a failed experiment... yet it's a favorite among many people. 4) The beginning of "Bring It On Home" is a direct lift off of Sonny Boy Williamson's version of "Bring It On Home" which Robert Plant sings in a old timey bloozey negro voice before actually singing in his more familar singing style. That would be called a parody... & "Bring It On Home" is not a "blues" outside of the parody/homage at the beginning, it's a hard rock song derived from the blues, again there's a difference. Ok good point but how in any way shape or form can the beginning of BIOH be called a parody, just because he imitates Sonny Boy Williamson and the first verse is a mere deliberate homages to the original not a parody because Plant is singing in some "old time bloozey negro voice" and isn't fun like how Hot Dog is and if your theory about BIOH is right then it stands the same for Hot Dog being a parody as Elvis actually had a song called "Hot Dog" which he performed in the motion picture and it features some Elvis like vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 http://htp://youtu.be/kyClslPuSUc An example of the Stones with a tongue in cheek homage to Country music with "Dead Flowers" rather than the over the top parody that is "Faraway Eyes". Having some sort of problem bringing this video up. Damn, still can't. I give up on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 How can I call it the beginning of "BIOH" a parody? Easily. Parody: a literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or work for comic effect. Was it a "mean spirited" comic effect? No, but it was lifted directly from the Sonny Boy Williamson song with Plant's exaggerated vocals. You be the judge whether it's intended to be funny or not. Unlike "BIOH" there's no similarity between Led Zeppelin's "Hot Dog" & Presley's, which musically it seems Presley's is a fast tempo Hawaiian number even though Elvis was one of the originators of the rockabilly genre. Again, Plant may have been paying a "homage" with the song title but a parody it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheStairwayRemainsTheSame Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I don't think there even needs to be a dispute about the beginning of BIOH being a parody or intended for comic effect, it just isn't. But Plant does use some Elvis like vocals in the way he sings Hot Dog, it is sung in Elvis fashion just like how the BIOH beginning is in old blues fashion and the lyrics of Hot Dog sure do promote comic effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 It's not a parody? Why? Because of what comes after? It's an exaggerated vocal from Plant that he never delivered on another studio Zeppelin song. The same phrasing that Plant uses on "Hot Dog" is also on Zeppelin's "Candy Store Rock". Elvis wasn't the only rockabilly artist who sang in the Zeppelin "Hot Dog" style, just check out Buddy Holly's "Rave On", Eddie Cochran's "Nervous Breakdown",The Big Bopper's "Chantilly Lace", or Jerry Lee Lewis's "Whole Lotta Shakin Going On" for more famous examples of that style than the Elvis song you noted. So the vocal style could come from various sources as it is a rockabilly homage with the title MAYBE being a nod to Elvis, but there is nothing in the song connecting it solely with one song unlike "BIOH". The beginning of Zeppelin's "BIOH" is DIRECTLY lifing from the Sonny Boy Williamson original lyrically & musically in an exagerrated vocal style from Plant that he never used on any other studio Zeppelin song... there's no disputing that. Whether one finds it funny or not well, just ask Willie Dixon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I also love rockabilly but I never understood how paying homage meant making a "tounge and cheek" version. I leave that stuff to Weird Al Yankovic. "Hot Dog" always seemed like more of an outake song to me. . A "homage" is just a sign of respect, but a parody can be too depending on the context. Obviously Zeppelin loved rockabilly, the genre of music itself is generally lighthearted & silly, & what would be "tongue & cheek" about it is that was probably the last thing most fans expected from the band, again showing a sense of humor like they did with "The Crunge". One would think that with the widescope of musical genres that Zeppelin has tooled around with that they themselves having fun in the studio with a song or two on a release wouldn't cause so much fussing amongst a segment of their fans, yet it does. Someone doesn't have much of a sense of humor & it's not Led Zeppelin. As far "Hot Dog" being an outtake, obviously not, that's why it's safe & secure as track 4 on side 1 of ITTOD & 3 others went on to Coda. If anything I'd prefer if "I Can't Quit You Babe" had been an outtake with "Baby Come Home" taking it's place on LZ1. The sound of pure filler to my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Something went wrong in the studio with ITTOD, too many things just didn't work. That is your opinion, not fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Yes of course, opinion. But isn't that what this discussion is about? Yes, but not when opinions are presented as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I'm all for exploring styles and fun with the music. I thought the Beatles were very good at that; and if you want a better example of a "homage" to a musical genre then look at Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da as their tribute to Jamaican Ska. But if it's not something people want to listen too, then is it really a tribute? Something went wrong in the studio with ITTOD, too many things just didn't work. 1) The tribute is done by the artist not the listener. That's like saying if an artist is creates a piece but a segment of the audience don't like it is the piece not creative? No it's still creative, that segment of the audience just don't care for how the creativity of the artist was executed. 2) I think "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da" blows simply because it blows according to my tastes but it still is a homage to early ska & my dislike of the song doesn't change that fact 3) Something went wrong in the studio? The janitor didn't mop & sweep one night after one of the sessions were done? Be specific & factual if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Facts: "In Through The Out Door wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but at least we were trying to vary what we were doing, for our own integrity's sake." - Robert Plant "We wanted, after In Through the Out Door, to make something hard-hitting and riff-based again. Of course, we never got to make that album." - Jimmy Page So where does it say "something went wrong"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Historian Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 This is funny to hear (the first few seconds) before the track starts , Bonham tell's Plant "fucking out" and Plant replies "what the hell's going on"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 I already said that was my opinion. In my opinion ITTOD is Zep's worst studio effort. Someone else said that Hot Dog was better than a whole list of other Zep songs, and I strongly disagreed. It is okay to have that opinion here isn't it? Is this thread for discussing ITTOD, or just a place to hang out and be a fanboi? Lose the attitude sonny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Facts: "In Through The Out Door wasn't the greatest thing in the world, but at least we were trying to vary what we were doing, for our own integrity's sake." - Robert Plant "We wanted, after In Through the Out Door, to make something hard-hitting and riff-based again. Of course, we never got to make that album." - Jimmy Page No one here is disagreeing with Plant that ITTOD wasn't the greatest thing in the world much less their best album. As Page has said of ITTOD it was a "transitional" album much like LZ3. As I stated earlier in the thread, LZ3 was lambasted for years for not being "typical" Zeppelin ie "There's not enough hard rock guitars on it!!!" is how I believe the chorus goes, & the same holds true for ITTOD. Unlike LZ3 Zeppelin never got to follow it up with a LZ4 which could have shown how they could combine the elements of the previous album with whatever they came up with at that specific time. Page already had the riff for Coverdale/Page's "Shake My Tree" from the ITTOD sessions that he & Bonham worked on. Which brings up this point, Page had 8 out of 10 cowrites on the songs from the ITTOD sessions variously between him & Plant, Jones & Plant, & Bonham, Jones, & Plant compared to JPJ's 7 out of 10 cowrites, & again JPJ had one cowrite (along with Bonham) on Presence in which Page has stated he wished that JPJ came up with more for that album but obviously JPJ more than made up for it with the next. Where's the "In The Light", "No Quarter", & "Misty Mountain Hop" on Presence? I certainly miss that vibe on Presence. Also, "something went wrong" with every album they recorded, whether Page was not able to be the perfectionist he wanted to be with LZ2 as they hopped from studio to studo recording & touring simultaneously, the intro to "Celebration Day" being erased, the mixes to LZ4 getting screwed up on a flight from LA to London, Plant geting his tonsils out prior to recording PG, Plant being in a wheelchair recording Presence, etc. So I'm not buying "something went wrong" if you don't like that album, it's simply not your thing & you're entitled to feel that way as a listener. It doesn't make you less or more a fan as that shouldn't be a contest. One last thing, Page has stated he was on drugs from the very beginning of Zeppelin to the end, that it was his lifestyle & he was pursuing it, so there wasn't an Zeppelin album in which he wasn't under the influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Historian Posted December 4, 2011 Author Share Posted December 4, 2011 No one here is disagreeing with Plant that ITTOD wasn't the greatest thing in the world much less their best album. As Page has said of ITTOD it was a "transitional" album much like LZ3. As I stated earlier in the thread, LZ3 was lambasted for years for not being "typical" Zeppelin ie "There's not enough hard rock guitars on it!!!" is how I believe the chorus goes, & the same holds true for ITTOD. Unlike LZ3 Zeppelin never got to follow it up with a LZ4 which could have shown how they could combine the elements of the previous album with whatever they came up with at that specific time. Page already had the riff for Coverdale/Page's "Shake My Tree" from the ITTOD sessions that he & Bonham worked on. Which brings up this point, Page had 8 out of 10 cowrites on the songs from the ITTOD sessions variously between him & Plant, Jones & Plant, & Bonham, Jones, & Plant compared to JPJ's 7 out of 10 cowrites, & again JPJ had one cowrite (along with Bonham) on Presence in which Page has stated he wished that JPJ came up with more for that album but obviously JPJ more than made up for it with the next. Where's the "In The Light", "No Quarter", & "Misty Mountain Hop" on Presence? I certainly miss that vibe on Presence. Also, "something went wrong" with every album they recorded, whether Page was not able to be the perfectionist he wanted to be with LZ2 as they hopped from studio to studo recording & touring simultaneously, the intro to "Celebration Day" being erased, the mixes to LZ4 getting screwed up on a flight from LA to London, Plant geting his tonsils out prior to recording PG, Plant being in a wheelchair recording Presence, etc. So I'm not buying "something went wrong" if you don't like that album, it's simply not your thing & you're entitled to feel that way as a listener. It doesn't make you less or more a fan as that shouldn't be a contest. One last thing, Page has stated he was on drugs from the very beginning of Zeppelin to the end, that it was his lifestyle & he was pursuing it, so there wasn't an Zeppelin album in which he wasn't under the influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reggie29 Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Is that an opinion or a fact? Neither mate, it's a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Coming off of PG, which they all agree is their masterpiece, Presence & ITTOD are going to be viewed as disappointments. I don't have a problem with ITTOD, I actually really like it because I like a band that mixes it up album from album, that's willing to take risks, changes the mood from song to song, etc. I'm not a guitar head, if a person can make a triangle sound interesting I'll listen it to it so I don't have this lack of guitar bias against ITTOD where I do have a bias against Presence for not being more adventurous with different instrumentation as Page may be my favorite band member but I'm less concerned about his guitar playing as opposed to how the overall song sounds, on ITTOD it works for me, on Presence it only half works. Both albums were recorded in 2-3 weeks with material written on the spot. What if they took 2-3 months instead like they did with HOTH? For whatever reason they didn't. And even PG wouldn't be as great as it is if they went solely by the tracks recorded for the album instead of using previous material for diversity(PG without The Rover? Bron-Yr-Aur? Down By The Seaside?). The problem with the recording with ITTOD was Plant was somewhat reluctant to come back in for understandable reasons due to his personal life that I'm sure still affects him tremendously never mind then when the tragedy was still fresh. To paraphrase Plant he had later said the recording process was a bit strained but by the time of the 1980 European Tour everything was back to where it was before in a positive sense. So I don't see that as a band on it's last legs, that's what rock "journalists" writing a story would like to serve up to end Zeppelin's story though as every good story needs build up, success, conflict, fall from grace, etc. It's hack writing 101 & I believe book was recently published actually portraying what was going on in the band member's heads in seperate chapters rather than sticking to the facts, again hack writing 101. Who knows what would have happend, in the end John Bonham died & they ended their career as a band due to that & not the conjecture of hack writers saying they would have ended anyway as I don't believe that made it in their final press release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiser Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Led Tiki is kind of right to say 'something went wrong in the studio'. Two things went wrong: 1. JP was hardly there, and 2. They couldn't figure out how to switch JPJ's new keyboard gizmo out of 'Cutesy Kiddies TV Theme Music' mode. 1) Were you there supplying sandwiches? Obviously Page was there just not at the same time as Jones & Plant initially. Page worked at night. Page has always worked on his own & at night, most of Presence's final recording process was Page doing all the overdubs & mixing without the other band members being around, that's not unusual as he did the same thing with LZ4 without the band being there. Keith Richards recorded his masterpiece, "Exile On Main Street", without keeping the same hours as Mick Jagger who did his parts in the daytime & Keith would start at 8pm while in the throes of heroin addiction. Bill Wyman barely showed up at all but it was done. A different band I know but I think too much is made of Page keeping the recording hours he always kept right from the beginning to Plant & Jones deciding to show up early. 2) Something tells me you would have been happier with Page's 1977 tour guitar solo being on ITTOD as opposed to JPJ's keyboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.