Zimmerman Charged with Murder in the 2nd Degree. Justice!

[TypeO]

Sorry guys, but regardless of whether you personally believe Zimmerman's account of the incident is irrelevant.

The evidence supported his account, and the jury obviously believed so, as well.

So saying "it's just what he said happened" is allowing yourself to be swayed by emotion, which is pretty much what the overwhelming majority of those who are upset about this verdict are doing, as well.

Yes, it's very sad (emotion) that young Trayvon died.

But the evidence and witness testimony support Zimmerman's account, so it was obviously fairly accurate.

Not to mention his story was provided immediately when questioned.

It would be pretty hard to invent an alternate explanation that still conformed to the evidence on the spot.

Stop letting emotion rule your perspective.

It was a weak case, and shouldn't have been prosecuted to begin with.

They only bowed to political pressure to do so.

[Rock Historian]

Sorry guys, but regardless of whether you personally believe Zimmerman's account of the incident is irrelevant.

The evidence supported his account, and the jury obviously believed so, as well.

So saying "it's just what he said happened" is allowing yourself to be swayed by emotion, which is pretty much what the overwhelming majority of those who are upset about this verdict are doing, as well.

Yes, it's very sad (emotion) that young Trayvon died.

But the evidence and witness testimony support Zimmerman's account, so it was obviously fairly accurate.

Not to mention his story was provided immediately when questioned.

It would be pretty hard to invent an alternate explanation that still conformed to the evidence on the spot.

Stop letting emotion rule your perspective.

It was a weak case, and shouldn't have been prosecuted to begin with.

They only bowed to political pressure to do so.

You are absolutely correct.

[Disco Duck]

That's nice.

It's not nice at all; particularly if you're black. However, it does prove what most African-Americans have always known: we're not the ones with the problem.

[JP78]

martin richard made this in memory of trayvon martin

[cryingbluerain]

^ Wish TM had those thoughts that night, maybe he wouldn't have bashed GZ's head into the concrete.

[SteveAJones]

Really Steve? And you know this how? Are you psychic or have special powers the rest of us do not have. There is no proof or evidence of what happened outside of what Zimmerman claims. That is called bias and therefore is irrelevant. What we do know beyond any doubt is this: Zimmerman armed himself, Zimmerman willingly pursued an unknown person, Zimmerman showed intent by inflammatory comments made while on the phone with the police dispatcher, then nothing until a fight ensues between Zimmerman and Martin at which point Zimmerman shoots and kills Martin. Those are the only FACTS of the case, anything else at this point is conjecture.

Zimmerman was and is guilty of manslaughter under the law, there is no question of this, it is a textbook case. Also, the fact is if Martin had been a white boy Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot and be serving 20 to life at this moment. That too is a statistical fact.

We know beyond a reasonable doubt a verbal altercation ensued because of the telephone recordings, statements and trial testimony. We know beyond a reasonable doubt that it escalated into violence because of Zimmerman's injuries and Martin's fatal gun shot wound.

Inflammatory comments are made all the time, but in and of themselves they do not necessarily connote intent to cause harm or murder.

As a by the way, I'd like to point out Martin expressed an epithet of his own.

The judge gave the jury the option to find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter, nonetheless he was found not guilty.

As a black man I'm tired of the race-baiting in American discourse, of which you are found guilty.

[zeppy668]

The racism factor is a crutch, used by the media to wedge the issue among those who are thinking with their emotions. While both sides are victims, especially Martin's, the real travesty is the fact that the "Stand Your Ground" law isn't being protested and vilified for creating an atmosphere where something like this, the Jordan Davis incident (which no one has talked about) and the countless others, is continually happening in Florida with no sign of it being repealed. That's the real tragedy here.

[SteveAJones]

I've read scholarly articles by respected sociologists and psychologists that discuss the impact race has on individual perceptions. Time and time again, their studies reveal that test subjects are more likely to describe black individuals as "hostile" or "threatening" even when their attire, body language and expressions are identical to the white individuals they encounter.

This logical fallacy is called "appeal to authority".

[SteveAJones]

The racism factor is a crutch, used by the media to wedge the issue among those who are thinking with their emotions. While both sides are victims, especially Martin's, the real travesty is the fact that the "Stand Your Ground" law isn't being protested and vilified for creating an atmosphere where something like this, the Jordan Davis incident (which no one has talked about) and the countless others, is continually happening in Florida with no sign of it being repealed. That's the real tragedy here.

Repeal of the Stand Your Ground law is actually the end game for many Martin supporters/activists. Now they shall have to find another opportunity to attempt to restrict everyone's inherent right to self defense. The real tragedy here is the most divisive Administration in American history continues to relentlessly promote a culture of suspicion for the American people.

[zeppy668]

Repeal of the Stand Your Ground law is actually the end game for many Martin supporters/activists. Now they shall have to find another opportunity to attempt to restrict everyone's inherent right to self defense. The real tragedy here is the most divisive Administration in American history continues to relentlessly promote a culture of suspicion for the American people.

It shouldn't be about restricting someone's right to self defense, especially considering the law was enacted with good intentions (based on hurricane victims protecting their devastated property from looters). It should be about making sure incidents like this, where an armed civilian engaged an unarmed civilian and ended up killing him because he started getting his ass kicked, can't happen at all. They should rename it the "Shoot First, Ask Questions Later" law.

As for Obama, I would add it's the entire government who continues to do that. Congress can't work together and refuses to stop the executive branch from expanding its powers.

[SteveAJones]

It should be about making sure incidents like this, where an armed civilian engaged an unarmed civilian and ended up killing him because he started getting his ass kicked, can't happen at all.

That is the socialist utopian ideal but as Clint Eastwood presented, there are just too many people among us who respect nothing but the barrel of a gun:

[Deborah J]

I have stayed off of this thread as they usually end in nasty comments. My thoughts, there was a trial and a jury decided, whether you believe in the verdict or not.

My thoughts, are both men were wrong and a tragic outcome is what became of this. If this was a "gated community", that means unless you are invited people pay homeowners dues to keep people out who do not live there unless they are invited. Then if you are a "neighborhood watchman" or whatever you call it does not give you the right to shoot an unarmed person.

And all the talk about media blowing this up, hell look at this thread..seems to be a lot of interest..I have found that a lot of people seem to love conflict and feed the frenzy. Children and teenagers are shot/killed everyday with not one word said, where is the outcry for human life?

As a side note: Prejudice for the most part IMHO more than anything in this country has become about rich verses poor. You can be rich and an asshole, but you have money so you can get by with things that people can't who do not have money... no matter your race. It's pathetic!! I have said this before, I have no problem with making money as long as you do not hurt other people to get there.

[SteveAJones]

Good post, Deborah. I do hope George Zimmerman does not return to his duties as a Neighborhood Watchman. Perhaps he could assist OJ Simpson with finding Nicole's killer, thus absolving OJ from any guilt & permitting OJ to make an overture to you to kindle the flames.

[zeppy668]

That is the socialist utopian ideal but as Clint Eastwood presented, there are just too many people among us who respect nothing but the barrel of a gun:

Actually, it's common sense based in reality. And showing a clip from a movie involving multiple people being engaged by one person has any relevance to the one-on-one confrontation of Zimmerman/Martin how? You're reaching for something that isn't there.

[Sagittarius Rising]

We know beyond a reasonable doubt a verbal altercation ensued because of the telephone recordings, statements and trial testimony. We know beyond a reasonable doubt that it escalated into violence because of Zimmerman's injuries and Martin's fatal gun shot wound.

Inflammatory comments are made all the time, but in and of themselves they do not necessarily connote intent to cause harm or murder.

As a by the way, I'd like to point out Martin expressed an epithet of his own.

The judge gave the jury the option to find Zimmerman guilty of manslaughter, nonetheless he was found not guilty.

As a black man I'm tired of the race-baiting in American discourse, of which you are found guilty.

Sorry Steve, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot claim "We know beyond a reasonable doubt a verbal altercation ensued because of the telephone recordings." Than say "Inflammatory comments are made all the time, but in and of themselves they do not necessarily connote intent to cause harm or murder."

Which is it. Further, the statements were only Zimmerman's as there were no other witnesses to the verbal altercation besides Zimmerman and the brief time Martin had with his girlfriend on the phone. Finally, to dispel the bullshit of bullshit, Zimmerman's head was not bashed against concrete, not sure what happened but the very minimal damage done to Zimmerman was a bloody nose and some minor scratches to the back of his head. I guarantee you if Martin had bashed his head against concrete even once, Zimmerman would not have had the capacity to do shit much less fire a weapon and the damage to his skull would have been substantial. You bash a head multiple times against concrete as Zimmerman claims not only would he have died but the back of his skull would have completely collapsed.

So, what is the legal definition of voluntary manslaughter? It is this: The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice.

The definition of involutary manslaughter: The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

By those two definitions alone Zimmerman is without a doubt guilty of involuntary manslaughter and once you add the police dispatch recordings of Zimmerman you get voluntary manslaughter. This is proven beyond ANY doubt, not even open to debate except to exonerate scared, pissed off people who decide to become a vigilante and pursue justice outside of context.

Finally, lets look at Zimmerman's criminal record:

In 2005, Zimmerman was arrested and charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer." Both these felonies are considered third-degree. Due to his desperate attempts, the charges were reduced to "resisting officer without violence" and then the only remaining charge was also completely waived off when he entered an alcohol education program.

In the same year (2005), Zimmerman's ex-fiance, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order, alleging domestic violence. In retaliation, Zimmerman filed for a retraining order against Zuazo and both these claims were resolved with both restraining orders granted.

So, the guy with a clear violent history is acquitted in the preventable death of a 17 year old with no criminal record whatsoever. Though Martin was suspended from school for marijuana possession, jewelry, and burglary tools this proves little since jewelry & burglary tools are never defined by the school and weed possession, well, 80% of the folk on this board are guilty of that at 17.

So Trayvon is bad for defending himself from an armed stalker but Zimmerman is not guilty even though manslaughter was proven and he had a violent prior criminal record.

NICE!!! And we wonder why the black community feels slighted. How strange?

[Deborah J]

As I have Native American in my blood (this is the absolute truth IMHO)--language a little rough, but I totally agree!!

Steve ^^ OJ was guilty, but again, a famous athlete with money..usually happens this way!

[SteveAJones]

Zimmerman's head was not bashed against concrete, not sure what happened but the very minimal damage done to Zimmerman was a bloody nose and some minor scratches to the back of his head. I guarantee you if Martin had bashed his head against concrete even once, Zimmerman would not have had the capacity to do shit much less fire a weapon and the damage to his skull would have been substantial. You bash a head multiple times against concrete as Zimmerman claims not only would he have died but the back of his skull would have completely collapsed.

I believe the defense stated Martin was attempting to use the sidewalk as a weapon, which would explain the lacerations to the back of Zimmerman's skull. A bloody nose in and of itself is not usually serious but can be when your skull is being forcefully jarred & restrained.

Moreover, all bets are off once a verbal altercation escalates to assault and unfortunately for Trayvon he brought Skittles to a gun fight.

[SteveAJones]

Showing a clip from a movie involving multiple people being engaged by one person has any relevance to the one-on-one confrontation of Zimmerman/Martin how?

The relevance is found in the principle of the matter: there are too many people walking the streets who only respect the barrel of a gun. If Martin knew Zimmermann was armed you can bet the altercation does not get physical.

[zeppy668]

Sag,

You may make some compelling points but the only way he could be convicted is if there was no reasonable doubt and the evidence presented had reasonable doubt. No one can deny Zimmerman killed Martin. And I think most logical people can put together a fair claim that Zimmerman overreached his position, possibly because he was armed, but most likely because of the neighborhood's past with crime and what he saw in Martin that evening. Like I said, the real issue here is the law. The law has to be written clearer so vigilantism isn't a threat to public order. I have no problem with someone carrying a firearm if that's what the state allows and the individual has a license to do so. However, when the law is written in which it can be 'loosely interpreted' so an armed individual can cite 'discretion was made based on a threat,' we have to ask ourselves what exactly constitutes a threat? And exactly who provoked it? In this case, Zimmerman did not stand down when told to. Therefore, he clearly instigated it. But without knowing exactly how events played out that lead to Martin's death, reasonable doubt is the right call.

[zeppy668]

The relevance is found in the principle of the matter: there are too many people walking the streets who only respect the barrel of a gun. If Martin knew Zimmermann was armed you can bet the altercation does not get physical.

Would Zimmerman have even gotten out of his car to pursue Martin if he wasn't armed to begin with?

[SteveAJones]

However, when the law is written in which it can be 'loosely interpreted' so an armed individual can cite 'discretion was made based on a threat,' we have to ask ourselves what exactly constitutes a threat?

For the lawful use of deadly force it's basically imminent harm or danger.

[Dallas Knebs]

since I do not make a habit of following tripe- particularly ginned up tripe (not that there is any other kind) I may have missed the obvious:

1. What does the trial/ensuing verdict have to do with anything?

2. How did Zimmerman end up on his back?

3. At what point did the deceased decide it was a good idea to escalate the encounter and enter into a confrontation?

[Persons over the age of 16 in Florida are not under curfew laws and therefore responsible for their own attitudes/speech/decisions/behaviors]

4. So the FBI official report is a record that declares "no evidence of racism" so why is race/racism/baiting still a topic of contention?

5. "Not guilty" of murder or manslaughter. The judge is on record,"...you have no further business before this court..." so why is this case any more that a vapor of a memory?

just wondering.

[SteveAJones]

Would Zimmerman have even gotten out of his car to pursue Martin if he wasn't armed to begin with?

It's not clear he pursued Martin on foot, though he may have. Clearly, being armed emboldened Zimmermann to the point of recklessness.

[zeppy668]

so why is this case any more that a vapor of a memory?

just wondering.

Because the media, particularly liberal media, turned this into a race crime from the beginning. The Sanford police did not immediately arrest Zimmerman, adding fuel to the fire. It sounds ridiculous to most that he wasn't arrested after murdering someone but as stated, the law essentially allows it in certain instances and this was arguably one of them. Instead of focusing on the law, the media focused on race. Yes, so did Fox News because they spent as much time talking about MSNBC's coverage of race as MSNBC actually did themselves. President Obama made comments saying if he had a son 'he would look like Trayvon.' The Florida prosecution went for second degree murder charges instead of manslaughter charges, which could have been a stronger case for them to make had they spent the time doing it. Reasonable doubt was there and the jury made the right call, the system works. Race has little to do with this case. It's all about the law. The media only talks about the racial component because they like the circus of keeping people divided against one another. The real issue is the law.

[Dallas Knebs]

Clearly, being armed emboldened Zimmermann to the point of recklessness.

just like the hoodie and skittles and gangstah emboldened the deceased to the point of recklessness?