The Rest in Peace Thread

[PeaceFrogYum]

21 hours ago, cryingbluerain said:

RIP Justine Damond.  No protests and riots for her though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Justine_Damond

Maybe because the cop was first suspended, then fired, then tried and convicted and given a 12.5 year prison sentence. Of course the family got a nice 20 million settlement as well. So in this particular case justice was indeed served.

[SteveAJones]

7 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Maybe because the cop was first suspended, then fired, then tried and convicted and given a 12.5 year prison sentence. Of course the family got a nice 20 million settlement as well. So in this particular case justice was indeed served.

This doesn't pass a basic logic test. Officer Chauvin and three other officers were fired. Chauvin has since been arrested and charged. So what is the real difference here? The difference is that Justine Damond is white and therefore doesn't have a victim card played in her honor by rampaging mobs.

[Stryder1978]

[reids]

21 hours ago, Badgeholder Still said:

Casey Jones strikes again. Another thread train-wrecked. So much for rest in peace. 

R.I.P. this thread 😢

...Only a child & y’all killed it.

(April 8, 2013 - June 3, 2020)

“The Rest in Peace Thread...people are just dying to get mentioned here.”

R😎

Edited June 3, 2020 by reids

[Stryder1978]

LMAO!

[PeaceFrogYum]

6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

This doesn't pass a basic logic test. Officer Chauvin and three other officers were fired. Chauvin has since been arrested and charged. So what is the real difference here? The difference is that Justine Damond is white and therefore doesn't have a victim card played in her honor by rampaging mobs.

The difference is in the Damond case, the only officer involved was convicted, in the Chauvin case, no one was arrested UNTIL the protests started and the other three, just as guilty, officers still have yet to be arrested. In case you wish to defend those other three "fine" officers, please let me explain. Say a friend of yours stops by your home and the two of you go out together to pick up some beer at the local store. Your friend says, "Steve, wait in the car, this will only take a minute" at which your friend goes into the store, robs it, and shoots and kills the clerk in the process. If you did anything but stop him (aware or not), detain him, and call the police, you too will be charged, and convicted of second degree murder even though you were just hanging in the car. In this case, the officers were in fact 100% complicit as they did nothing to stop their fellow officer from murdering another human being who was already handcuffed and restrained. Until ALL officers involved in this are arrested and prosecuted there is no justice.

Ps. I am done as we have gone off topic, my apologies. 

Edited June 3, 2020 by PeaceFrogYum

[Stryder1978]

Uh, no.  Justine Diamond was shot and killed on 15 July 2017.  A warrant for Mohamed Noor wasn't issued until 20 March 2018!  Almost an entire year goes by before the black officer is arrested!  Where was the liberal crowd screaming, assaulting, rioting and burning then?  WHITE LIVES MATTER!

[SteveAJones]

6 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

Uh, no.  Justine Diamond was shot and killed on 15 July 2017.  A warrant for Mohamed Noor wasn't issued until 20 March 2018!  Almost an entire year goes by before the black officer is arrested!  Where was the liberal crowd screaming, assaulting, rioting and burning then?  WHITE LIVES MATTER!

I was just about to educate PukeFrogYum. With regard to Floyd's death, what I really want to emphasize is the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's autopsy concluded Floyd died from a heart attack. Additionally, based upon the illegal drugs in his system the case can be made he was high as a kite. Personally, I think the prosecutor's office is making a mistake by charging Chauvin with Murder in the 2nd Degree. I think I could get him an acquittal on that charge. They should have stayed with Murder in the 1st Degree, in which case I would seek to plea bargain down to Manslaughter.  

[kipper]

2 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I was just about to educate PukeFrogYum. With regard to Floyd's death, what I really want to emphasize is the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's autopsy concluded Floyd died from a heart attack. Additionally, based upon the illegal drugs in his system the case can be made he was high as a kite. Personally, I think the prosecutor's office is making a mistake by charging Chauvin with Murder in the 2nd Degree. I think I could get him an acquittal on that charge. They should have stayed with Murder in the 1st Degree, in which case I would seek to plea bargain down to Manslaughter.  

You make some good point Steves about what originally drew the attention to the police to Floyd. I have always said that when people go out looking for trouble, trouble will unusually find them.

In terms of murder (unlawful homicide with malice aforethought) or manslaughter (unlawful homicide without malice aforethought) I think the problem for the officer is the amount of time which elapsed from his initial use of force against Floyd (who was in fact handcuffed eventually)--- which  ended up being about 8-9 minutes---  and with at least 3 or 4 minutes of which Floyd was no longer moving or breathing..........  ALL while bystanders were warning the officer that the man was not breathing.....AND AFTER the man himself has said more than once that he couldn't breath.

So I suppose an interesting legal dilemma as it would apply to the definition of murder.  At what point given a certain amount of time to either reflect on your action(s) and use of lethal force--- and then NOT de-escalate from that deadly force when you have an option to do so. Can the prosecution then argue that the illegal homicide went from manslaughter to murder?

To me an example would be a suspect in a stolen car observed by the police who then accelerated to a high speed to get away but loses control and has an accident and someone is killed. Clearly an illegal homicide (vehicular), clearly a manslaughter.  But lets say instead the suspect drove at high speeds trying to evade the police for 15-20 minutes, weaving in out of oncoming traffic, sometimes running red lights, goes up on sidewalks-- speeding through school zones--- and THEN he kills somebody.  Wouldn't the time in which his wanton and callous behavior-- all of which any reasonable person would HAVE TO KNOW would likely end in a death, wouldn't that satisfy a  charge of premeditated murder in the 2nd degree?

Do you believe the officer had a duty to de-escalate at some point in the encounter, especially since Floyd was handcuffed, and especially since he appeared to be having difficultly breathing? I think that is at the heart of the current murder charge against the officer.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by kipper

[Kiwi_Zep_Fan87]

21 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

WHITE LIVES MATTER!

My post is not just meant for you but for everybody out there, both in this forum and outside this forum.

Are we all human beings? Yes.

Does the blood pumping through our veins all look the same? Yes. 

What separates us? Apparently, a silly old skin pigment called Melanin, which seems to be an excuse for bad behaviour across many "races" - black, white, brown, etc.

That's how I see it. 

Apologies for derailing this thread, but I could not help but put my thoughts on the subject of "race", while we were all at it. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Kiwi_Zep_Fan87

[Stryder1978]

I agree...ALL LIVES MATTER!  My comment was made in reference to poor Ms. Damond and no endless vigils for her senseless death. 

[PeaceFrogYum]

22 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

Uh, no.  Justine Diamond was shot and killed on 15 July 2017.  A warrant for Mohamed Noor wasn't issued until 20 March 2018!  Almost an entire year goes by before the black officer is arrested!  Where was the liberal crowd screaming, assaulting, rioting and burning then?  WHITE LIVES MATTER!

Correct but he was immediately suspended pending investigation and second, unlike black people, white people are not gunned down on a frequent basis in America thus no need for any public outcry. Now if white folk were getting killed by the police at the same statistical rate as black folk you bet their would be protests. Also, when white people are killed by the cops, and there is proof that the cop acted improperly, historically that cop goes to jail which is the exact opposite, historically, when the victim is black.

[PeaceFrogYum]

16 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I was just about to educate PukeFrogYum. With regard to Floyd's death, what I really want to emphasize is the Hennepin County Medical Examiner's autopsy concluded Floyd died from a heart attack. Additionally, based upon the illegal drugs in his system the case can be made he was high as a kite. Personally, I think the prosecutor's office is making a mistake by charging Chauvin with Murder in the 2nd Degree. I think I could get him an acquittal on that charge. They should have stayed with Murder in the 1st Degree, in which case I would seek to plea bargain down to Manslaughter.  

If you wish to keep insulting me when no insult is warranted, it only makes you look like a spoiled, nasty 8 year old. How about you grow up Steve and act like a man instead of a small child, upset that he can't get his way. Who knows, maybe that is a bridge too far for you which would be a shame.

Ps. The autopsy report stated murder, so he was murdered. By your logic if anyone has a pre-existing medical condition prior to a police confrontation which results in that persons death, you can claim the death was not the officers fault which is obviously a ridiculous argument and one which would never stand up in court on an normal playing field so to speak. Under no circumstances to you place your knee on another persons neck in such a situation. The man was handcuffed and was not resisting but you want to say he had a heart attack. Well guess what, if you are being asphyxiated you will die of either a heart attack or pulmonary failure depending on your health but in either case you will die.

Edited June 4, 2020 by PeaceFrogYum

[Stryder1978]

22 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Correct but he was immediately suspended pending investigation and second, unlike black people, white people are not gunned down on a frequent basis in America thus no need for any public outcry. Now if white folk were getting killed by the police at the same statistical rate as black folk you bet their would be protests. Also, when white people are killed by the cops, and there is proof that the cop acted improperly, historically that cop goes to jail which is the exact opposite, historically, when the victim is black.

Wrong again!  Unarmed white males are shot and killed by police officers at a  rate almost TWICE the number of unarmed blacks that are killed (Wash Post keeps the stats).  To educate you further from your liberal indoctrination, in 2019, 10 unarmed black men were killed in America by police officers.  Of those 10, 5 were attacking the officers with a vehicle or physically wrestling with the officer attempting to get THEIR weapon.  During that same year, 46 police officers were killed in the line of duty.....most of them white males.

Also keep in mind the FBI statistics that show that 57% of all violent crime in America is committed by blacks aged 13-40 (which is 3% of the US population).  Also note that while they comprise only 13% of the population of the US, blacks commit 52% of all  homicides in the US (killing mostly other blacks).

So in a nation of 350 million, 10 unarmed black men are killed by police in a year, most in the act of committing a crime. 

Hardly the "racist pandemic" that you and the media keep pandering.  

 

[PeaceFrogYum]

1 hour ago, Stryder1978 said:

Wrong again!  Unarmed white males are shot and killed by police officers at a  rate almost TWICE the number of unarmed blacks that are killed (Wash Post keeps the stats).  To educate you further from your liberal indoctrination, in 2019, 10 unarmed black men were killed in America by police officers.  Of those 10, 5 were attacking the officers with a vehicle or physically wrestling with the officer attempting to get THEIR weapon.  During that same year, 46 police officers were killed in the line of duty.....most of them white males.

Also keep in mind the FBI statistics that show that 57% of all violent crime in America is committed by blacks aged 13-40 (which is 3% of the US population).  Also note that while they comprise only 13% of the population of the US, blacks commit 52% of all  homicides in the US (killing mostly other blacks).

So in a nation of 350 million, 10 unarmed black men are killed by police in a year, most in the act of committing a crime. 

Hardly the "racist pandemic" that you and the media keep pandering.  

 

I think you need to some more research as your facts are not only wrong, but disproven years ago as propaganda. You need to take into account also that, as you pointed out, only 13% of the population is black so if all things were even black deaths by police should be extremely low, but it is the exact opposite. Let's look at the posted links and find out why:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/10/23/white-supremacists-favorite-myths-about-black-crime-rates-take-another-hit-bjs-study

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/04/another-excuse-police-bias-bites-dust/

https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-against-black-americans/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

Also, when studies are performed side by side (low income white neighborhoods vs. low income black neighborhoods) the numbers come back pretty much identical which proves beyond doubt poverty is the greatest contributor to crime, not race. As the majority of blacks in America are much lower income than their white counterparts, they will commit more crime as a result. That is not race, it is desperation. Or do you feel minorities have a greater obligation than their white brothers and sisters in regard to "dealing with poverty and suck it up" mentality?

I have lived in poor neighborhoods, middle class neighborhoods, and affluent neighborhoods and I can attest that crime in poor white neighborhoods is just as bad as those in poor black neighborhoods, no difference.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by PeaceFrogYum

[kipper]

13 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

I have lived in poor neighborhoods, middle class neighborhoods, and affluent neighborhoods and I can attest that crime in poor white neighborhoods is just as bad as those in poor black neighborhoods, no difference.

 

So then in Appalachia you are saying that the crime there is just as high as in East Chicago?

 

 

 

 

RIP George Floyd

[Stryder1978]

Rather than some liberal, biased site like you prefer to read, I go to the source:

Bureau of Justice Statistics,

the FBI

And maybe if minority communities didn't loot and burn down businesses every two or three years, someone might actually invest in those communities.  Also, if they stayed in school, took care of the children they spawn and started taking responsibility for their own actions, they might raise themselves up out of poverty.

LMAO..you lived in a poor neighborhood?  I was born and raised in one!  I had 5 brothers/1 sister.  My father never got past an eighth grade education and never earned more than $25K in his life.  I was lucky to have a stay-at-home Mom.  We grew our own veggies, raised ducks, rabbits and chickens for protein.  Mom spent the Fall canning those veggies.  In the winter, we supplemented our diet with meat we got from hunting and trapping.  I've been working since I was 7 years old since I had to buy my own clothes and school supplies. My siblings and I were responsible for planting and caring for the three gardens we had - if we didn't work them, we didn't eat!  Never had government assistance.  We walked to school and each of us worked outside the home from grade school on besides chores at home.

My dad stressed education on all of us and family values, hard work and religion pulled us out of poverty to where we are today.....not whining, not hand-outs from the gubment.  Oh, and my grandparents came over on the boat with nothing more than the clothes on their backs, so no silver spoon privilege for this white boy!

So yea, I feel very little sympathy for people who CHOOSE to be a blight on society!

[PeaceFrogYum]

2 hours ago, Stryder1978 said:

Rather than some liberal, biased site like you prefer to read, I go to the source:

Bureau of Justice Statistics,

the FBI

And maybe if minority communities didn't loot and burn down businesses every two or three years, someone might actually invest in those communities.  Also, if they stayed in school, took care of the children they spawn and started taking responsibility for their own actions, they might raise themselves up out of poverty.

LMAO..you lived in a poor neighborhood?  I was born and raised in one!  I had 5 brothers/1 sister.  My father never got past an eighth grade education and never earned more than $25K in his life.  I was lucky to have a stay-at-home Mom.  We grew our own veggies, raised ducks, rabbits and chickens for protein.  Mom spent the Fall canning those veggies.  In the winter, we supplemented our diet with meat we got from hunting and trapping.  I've been working since I was 7 years old since I had to buy my own clothes and school supplies. My siblings and I were responsible for planting and caring for the three gardens we had - if we didn't work them, we didn't eat!  Never had government assistance.  We walked to school and each of us worked outside the home from grade school on besides chores at home.

My dad stressed education on all of us and family values, hard work and religion pulled us out of poverty to where we are today.....not whining, not hand-outs from the gubment.  Oh, and my grandparents came over on the boat with nothing more than the clothes on their backs, so no silver spoon privilege for this white boy!

So yea, I feel very little sympathy for people who CHOOSE to be a blight on society!

I am truly sorry you cannot see things from any perspective but your own, but different groups have different experiences and the playing field is not level for all. If it makes you feel better to think white people are superior to others, that's on you, but to ignore systemic racism and the outcomes of such IMO, makes no sense. How do we fix the problems without addressing, or even acknowledging the root causes? Obviously what we have been doing has not worked so what is wrong with trying things from a different, more positive approach? What do we have to lose?

[PeaceFrogYum]

2 hours ago, kipper said:

So then in Appalachia you are saying that the crime there is just as high as in East Chicago?

 

 

 

 

RIP George Floyd

There is a great movie called Winter's Bone which will answer that question but yes, crime is just as high when adjusted for population. The difference is many of those crimes go unreported in Appalachia and other such communities for obvious reasons (getting killed by your neighbors for snitching is one of many). The stats I posted shows of of this.

[SteveAJones]

23 hours ago, kipper said:

So I suppose an interesting legal dilemma as it would apply to the definition of murder.  At what point given a certain amount of time to either reflect on your action(s) and use of lethal force--- and then NOT de-escalate from that deadly force when you have an option to do so. Can the prosecution then argue that the illegal homicide went from manslaughter to murder?

Do you believe the officer had a duty to de-escalate at some point in the encounter, especially since Floyd was handcuffed, and especially since he appeared to be having difficultly breathing? I think that is at the heart of the current murder charge against the officer.

I realize the media is sensationalizing the time involved, but time is not the primary factor to consider, the officer's intent is. 

• First degree murder requires intent and planning. You intended to kill them, and you planned to do so.
• Second degree murder requires intent to kill but does not require planning. “Heat of passion” crimes and others that occur spur of the moment often fall into the category of second-degree murder. Some states treat “heat of passion” crimes that would otherwise be second-degree murder as involuntary manslaughter, others don’t.
• Third degree murder, where it exists, requires no intent to kill nor previous planning but only that you acted in a reckless manner in a way that ended up with someone dying. Third degree murder is the least common type of murder, existing in only a few states like Florida, Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

In Minnesota specifically,

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

 

7 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

P.S. The autopsy report stated murder, so he was murdered. By your logic if anyone has a pre-existing medical condition prior to a police confrontation which results in that persons death, you can claim the death was not the officers fault which is obviously a ridiculous argument and one which would never stand up in court on an normal playing field so to speak. Under no circumstances to you place your knee on another persons neck in such a situation. The man was handcuffed and was not resisting but you want to say he had a heart attack. Well guess what, if you are being asphyxiated you will die of either a heart attack or pulmonary failure depending on your health but in either case you will die.

Good grief. Are you referring to George Floyd? The County Medical Examiner's autopsy ruled Floyd died from cardiac arrest. Perhaps you are referring to the independent autopsy Floyd's family sanctioned afterward, which deemed it was a homicide. Now I'm going to show you why you don't press for a second degree murder conviction in this case.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the County Medical Examiner's autopsy determined that Mr. Floyd died from a cardiac arrest due to underlying health conditions and a mixture of illegal substances in his system at the time of his death. To dismiss those conclusive findings is to ignore data and science. Note the independent autopsy that was conducted later had nearly 30% less of his heart to examine. How can you conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that cardiac arrest was not the cause of death with 30% of the heart removed from the equation? If the findings don't fit, you must acquit. I rest my case".

[PeaceFrogYum]

1 hour ago, SteveAJones said:

I realize the media is sensationalizing the time involved, but time is not the primary factor to consider, the officer's intent is. 

• First degree murder requires intent and planning. You intended to kill them, and you planned to do so.
• Second degree murder requires intent to kill but does not require planning. “Heat of passion” crimes and others that occur spur of the moment often fall into the category of second-degree murder. Some states treat “heat of passion” crimes that would otherwise be second-degree murder as involuntary manslaughter, others don’t.
• Third degree murder, where it exists, requires no intent to kill nor previous planning but only that you acted in a reckless manner in a way that ended up with someone dying. Third degree murder is the least common type of murder, existing in only a few states like Florida, Minnesota and Pennsylvania.

In Minnesota specifically,

(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

 

Good grief. Are you referring to George Floyd? The County Medical Examiner's autopsy ruled Floyd died from cardiac arrest. Perhaps you are referring to the independent autopsy Floyd's family sanctioned afterward, which deemed it was a homicide. Now I'm going to show you why you don't press for a second degree murder conviction in this case.

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the County Medical Examiner's autopsy determined that Mr. Floyd died from a cardiac arrest due to underlying health conditions and a mixture of illegal substances in his system at the time of his death. To dismiss those conclusive findings is to ignore data and science. Note the independent autopsy that was conducted later had nearly 30% less of his heart to examine. How can you conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that cardiac arrest was not the cause of death with 30% of the heart removed from the equation? If the findings don't fit, you must acquit. I rest my case".

Don't ever go into law Steve, because if that is your defense, your client would go to jail for a very long time.

Simple counter-argument: Prosecutor has coroner on stand who performed autopsy -  "Dr. Whoever, I only have two questions, first, were there any signs of asphyxiation present on Mr. Floyd's body? And two, would Mr. Floyd have died from heart failure that day had Officer Whateverhisnameis not placed his knee on Mr. Floyd's throat for 8:43? 

Edited June 5, 2020 by PeaceFrogYum

[SteveAJones]

12 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Don't ever go into law Steve, because if that is your defense, your client would go to jail for a very long time.

Simple counter-argument: Prosecutor has coroner on stand who performed autopsy -  "Dr. Whoever, I only have two questions, first, were there any signs of asphyxiation present on Mr. Floyd's body? And two, would Mr. Floyd have died from heart failure that day had Officer Whateverhisnameis not placed his knee on Mr. Floyd's throat for 8:43? 

Answer: "Findings from the autopsy conducted by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner found no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxiation or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.  The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by police, his underlying health conditions and the intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. As to if Mr. Floyd would have died from heart failure had Officer Chauvin not placed his knee on Mr. Floyd's throat for 8:43, it is within the realm of possibility that Mr. Floyd did have a fatal cardiac arrest episode regardless".

This is further illustrative of why they should prosecute for 3rd degree murder or manslaughter, not 2nd degree murder. 

[PeaceFrogYum]

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Answer: "Findings from the autopsy conducted by the Hennepin County Medical Examiner found no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxiation or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease.  The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by police, his underlying health conditions and the intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. As to if Mr. Floyd would have died from heart failure had Officer Chauvin not placed his knee on Mr. Floyd's throat for 8:43, it is within the realm of possibility that Mr. Floyd did have a fatal cardiac arrest episode regardless".

This is further illustrative of why they should prosecute for 3rd degree murder or manslaughter, not 2nd degree murder. 

Your argument falls short as that is not relevant as per what you said, "being restrained by police" is an admission of fact whereas "It is within the realm" is speculative and thus irrelevant.

That being said I agree this does not rise to the level of 2nd degree murder as intent cannot be proven at this point. My opinion, FWIW, this cop did this because he wanted to assert his authority, I would even go so far as to say if the crowd was not there, begging the cop to stop, this never would have happened and Mr. Floyd would be alive today. He was the cop and no one was going to tell him what to do.

[SteveAJones]

3 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

Your argument falls short as that is not relevant as per what you said, "being restrained by police" is an admission of fact whereas "It is within the realm" is speculative and thus irrelevant.

That being said I agree this does not rise to the level of 2nd degree murder as intent cannot be proven at this point. My opinion, FWIW, this cop did this because he wanted to assert his authority, I would even go so far as to say if the crowd was not there, begging the cop to stop, this never would have happened and Mr. Floyd would be alive today. He was the cop and no one was going to tell him what to do.

Mr. Floyd was lawfully restrained for cause. He was high as a kite and apparently unwilling or unable to get in the vehicle.

The interaction between the police officer and the community, not to mention the video recording, is what will send at least one of the officers to prison. Chauvin will almost certainly be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of failing to render assistance to Mr. Floyd once Mr. Floyd was handcuffed. Most police officers are well aware if not trained as standard operating procedure that once a suspect is cuffed you should, as a minimum, place them on their side or to get them up from the ground as soon as possible, either sitting or standing, since lying on one's stomach can cause breathing problems, especially for large people. Chauvin cannot possibly use as a defense that he was unaware of Floyd's distress. The rookie officer asked Chauvin directly if they should put him on his side. Chauvin refused, saying something to the effect of Floyd was having an episode of delirium. Additionally, as you noted there were several onlookers shouting at Chauvin and he acknowledged their appeals by reaching for his can of mace (as I recall).

We may never know why Chauvin behaved the way he did, but I would agree, based on the evidence presented thus far, that Mr. Floyd's failure to get in the vehicle was perceived by Chauvin as contempt of cop and this led to Chauvin abusing his authority. It It  seems Chauvin's motivation was to publicly humiliate Floyd to the point of unconsciousness and then the four of them would lift him up and throw him into the back seat. We must remember Chauvin has 18 complaints on his record, which is inordinately high.

A good point was raised this week, that although each individual complaint may not have warranted punishment, there should have been a point where they were reviewed in aggregate. We could quibble over how many offenses it would take to trigger that review, but for the sake of example every five complaints a personnel file should go to a review board.

[kipper]

4 minutes ago, SteveAJones said:

Mr. Floyd was lawfully restrained for cause. He was high as a kite and apparently unwilling or unable to get in the vehicle.

The interaction between the police officer and the community, not to mention the video recording, is what will send at least one of the officers to prison. Chauvin will almost certainly be found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of failing to render assistance to Mr. Floyd once Mr. Floyd was handcuffed. Most police officers are well aware if not trained as standard operating procedure that once a suspect is cuffed you should, as a minimum, place them on their side or to get them up from the ground as soon as possible, either sitting or standing, since lying on one's stomach can cause breathing problems, especially for large people. Chauvin cannot possibly use as a defense that he was unaware of Floyd's distress. The rookie officer asked Chauvin directly if they should put him on his side. Chauvin refused, saying something to the effect of Floyd was having an episode of delirium. Additionally, as you noted there were several onlookers shouting at Chauvin and he acknowledged their appeals by reaching for his can of mace (as I recall).

We may never know why Chauvin behaved the way he did, but I would agree, based on the evidence presented thus far, that Mr. Floyd's failure to get in the vehicle was perceived by Chauvin as contempt of cop and this led to Chauvin abusing his authority. It It  seems Chauvin's motivation was to publicly humiliate Floyd to the point of unconsciousness and then the four of them would lift him up and throw him into the back seat. We must remember Chauvin has 18 complaints on his record, which is inordinately high.

A good point was raised this week, that although each individual complaint may not have warranted punishment, there should have been a point where they were reviewed in aggregate. We could quibble over how many offenses it would take to trigger that review, but for the sake of example every five complaints a personnel file should go to a review board.

Good post Steve, I think people here who are always on your back should accept your post as indication that you are reasonable enough to conclude that whatever Chauvin's motivation was for how he dealt with Floyd that it seemed clearly beyond the scale of being concerned for Floyd's well being--- especially after twice being warned by a fellow officer.

Proving motive however is not a necessary element of the crime of murder. All that is required is proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the homicide resulted from an illegal (unjustified act) and that the perpetrator did so with malice aforethought. I believe, and I know you and I disagree, that the elapsed time of the knee on the neck WITH warnings from the other cop and others---was enough time to contemplate the act and therefore imply intent/malice.

If the officer's motive was to administer "an attitude adjustment" on Floyd for some disrespect or some other negative view by the cop, that doesn't help the officer's case and may only feed the prosecution's means to find the malice in the act.  There was previously reported that both Floyd and Chavin worked as security guards at a local club, but not sure if they ever crossed paths before the day this incident occurred.  My personal theory is that this officer didn't just get up that day and suddenly do the knee on the neck thing; I am sure it was just part of his SOP when dealing with some suspects, especially large strong ones.  Cops don't make a habit of losing fights, and most cops I have seen consider ANY resistance by a suspect ---even if it is going dead weight, or slightly dragging their feet as a pretext to do an "attitude adjustment" and reinforce who is command, and who is in control, and who will not be disrespected.  So if Chauvin was in the habit of doing that (which I believe he was and answers in my mind why the other officers didn't seem to alarmed by it), but then on this one day, with this one suspect it went where it did.....   well, I guess Chauvin maybe should have retired or found some other kind of work BEFORE this one day.  I would bet anything that his thing Chauvin was doing he has done alot in the past.

BTW, I called a friend of mine who is a retired Los Angels County Sheriff deputy who had worked in some of the toughest ghetto areas of Los Angeles County; worked the jails, been in hundreds of knock down drag out fights with thugs and all kinds of rough and tumble stuff. Certainly not a shrieking daisy, and definitely not a guy who was averse to using necessary force to win a battle even if it left a suspect bloody. And he told me that what he saw in the video was inexcusable. He said this was  NOT Rodney King getting hit because King kept fighting back. He said once the guy was on the ground in cuffs and under control--- the battle is OVER and there is no reason for what the officer did other than the officer was retaliating for some reason because he could.