Moby Dick

[huw]

I think mostly only drummer's will appreciate most of what Bonzo is doing. Although the drumming community and such did not feel Bonzo was doing anything miraculous.

For me, that's spot on. As a member of the drumming community I feel that there are a lot of better soloists than Bonzo - Moby Dick just doesn't stand out.

Drums were my first instrument, been playing for 38 years now, and I like to hear a lot of drumming. Hell, I've even been to those Zildjian days & listened to whole days of drumming.

But the simple truth is this: as a soloist, Bonzo was desperately in need of editing.

Don't get me wrong - I love his playing, & the things he could do within the structure of a song are fantastic, but left to himself he rambled. On, & on, & on... etc

Good soloists, regardless of their level of technicality, are musical, & will structure their solo like a piece of music, with one idea leading to another, with dynamic growth, & with a climax. Bonzo didn't - his solos tend to be more along the lines of - play an idea, flog it to death, when it's run out of steam keep going anyway, then jump to another idea, & flog that one to death too. Repeat.

The only real structure to his solos was "sticks, hands, sticks" & over a 20 minute plus solo that just ain't enough variety to keep my interest.

I mentioned that a solo should have a climax - how often did Bonzo do that, & how often did he start out just as intensely as he finished, with very few dips inbetween. Physically impressive, but dynamically flat.

So, no - I'm not a huge fan of Moby Dick

It's a shame - because the things he could do with a drum kit are wonderous. But IMHO his talents are best viewed/listened to with the rest of the band playing at the same time.

For example - the live version of Kashmir from Knebworth that's on the official DVD has far more satisfying, impressive, musical & just plain fantastic drumming than any Moby Dick, ever.

Disclaimer: actually I'm right on this one

[Victor]

Sorry folks but I cannot believe the sheer CRAP!!!! I've just read in this thread. I'm staggered at what I've read by so called 'drummers' here.

There are three things that made Bonzo stand out from other drummers, both as an integral part of all of Zeps songs and also as a soloist.

Power - I've never heard a drummer that could constantly keep up that power with that level of intensity for hour after hour night after night. I've not heard a drummer come close and I've been listening to drummers for 40 years. If you saw Zep live there was one thing that distinguished them from everyone else, Bonhams drums reverberating through the stage itself, and I've seen so many.

Invention - The beauty of all of Bonzos drum solos was that he turned the whole piece into music, from very simplistic beats to total explosions of of speed and power it was what put Bonzo in a league of his own. Every drum beat from Zep 1 onwards was phrases real musical phrases not just rhythym. Actually stop and listen to his solos over and over and get to know them like a piece of music, aboslutely a world apart from anyone else.

Explosion - Bonham when he exploded had no equal, visually and aurally.

One of the aspects of Zeps rise to fame was that they always broke rules and although they had so many critics that slated them, people always found something that they couldnt find elsewhere. So many vocalists, guitarists, bassists, drummers took an oh so superior atitude of calling them sloppy, untechnical etc ect and they missed the reality of what was happening.

Its quite amazing that so many 'fans' here have also missed out on one of the main aspects of Zep.

By the way I saw Bonzo perform Moby Dick at the last night of Earls Court. Nothing compared to it, and I dont think I've seen an audience in any type of performance sit there with mouths wide open as I did on that night.

....but then Zep did make demands of their listeners and some just arent up to it.

[Fresh Garbage]

You skip Dazed and Confused and No Quarter. Blasphemy !!!! These are 2 of their greatest live songs.....!!!

Maybe your attention span doesn't go past 7 minutes, but don't generalise that to the rest of the world's population.

LMAO!...I just pulled up Snow Jobs on my media player. and only put in NQ and Dazed...I do that all the time. I like the impro stuff that the band did. without that we wouldn't need all the boots we have.

[supraphonic]

Sorry folks but I cannot believe the sheer CRAP!!!! I've just read in this thread. I'm staggered at what I've read by so called 'drummers' here.

There are three things that made Bonzo stand out from other drummers, both as an integral part of all of Zeps songs and also as a soloist.

Power - I've never heard a drummer that could constantly keep up that power with that level of intensity for hour after hour night after night. I've not heard a drummer come close and I've been listening to drummers for 40 years. If you saw Zep live there was one thing that distinguished them from everyone else, Bonhams drums reverberating through the stage itself, and I've seen so many.

Invention - The beauty of all of Bonzos drum solos was that he turned the whole piece into music, from very simplistic beats to total explosions of of speed and power it was what put Bonzo in a league of his own. Every drum beat from Zep 1 onwards was phrases real musical phrases not just rhythym. Actually stop and listen to his solos over and over and get to know them like a piece of music, aboslutely a world apart from anyone else.

Explosion - Bonham when he exploded had no equal, visually and aurally.

One of the aspects of Zeps rise to fame was that they always broke rules and although they had so many critics that slated them, people always found something that they couldnt find elsewhere. So many vocalists, guitarists, bassists, drummers took an oh so superior atitude of calling them sloppy, untechnical etc ect and they missed the reality of what was happening.

Its quite amazing that so many 'fans' here have also missed out on one of the main aspects of Zep.

By the way I saw Bonzo perform Moby Dick at the last night of Earls Court. Nothing compared to it, and I dont think I've seen an audience in any type of performance sit there with mouths wide open as I did on that night.

....but then Zep did make demands of their listeners and some just arent up to it.

Victor you nailed it !!! especially some listeners arent up to it , that is so true ,very cool...

[Fresh Garbage]

Victor,

You'll get no arguements from me either. I have always thought of John Bonham as being the greatest musician ever!....and I still speak it loud and proud

[huw]

....but then Zep did make demands of their listeners and some just arent up to it.

Nice try Victor, but that's a cheap shot - blaming the listener for having a different opinion to yours.

Of course, it's a slick move you're tryiong to pull: it also carries the implication of your superiority, because you "get it", over anyone who doesn't "get it".

Sorry - but these folk "get it" just as much as you do - and if they don't like it, they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.

[Fresh Garbage]

Nice try Victor, but that's a cheap shot - blaming the listener for having a different opinion to yours.

Of course, it's a slick move you're tryiong to pull: it also carries the implication of your superiority, because you "get it", over anyone who doesn't "get it".

Sorry - but these folk "get it" just as much as you do - and if they don't like it, they are as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours.

I am sorry but I agree with Victor.

Zeppelin played at a time when live music was more about improvisation,and not the juke box style...just about every rock band from that time was using this system.

I have never seen the boys live. but I do know that if Bonzo wasn't getting the response and his 30+ minute solo's wern't working he would have cut them down, because Zeppelin played for the fans and thier needs.

now listening to these long solo's on audio is a much different story. I do skip past Moby Dick often as well. but as for perfomance reasons Moby Dick did served a purpose....

I guess you just had to be there.

and also, since Bonzo did have the reputation. is does seem fitting that Page would (on HTWWW) have his solo loooooong!

[huw]

FreshGarbage - that's cool, we can disagree - I have no problem with that.

What I didn't like was Victor's assertion that people who didn't like Moby Dick "didn't get it".

I maintain my position that there are plenty of folks who "get" Moby Dick fine, but who just don't think it's as good as some of you other folk do.

It's fine to have differing opinions - makes the world go around & all that - & it's cool that some folks like MD while other folk don't, but when someone tells me that I dont "get it" that's insulting.

ps - those "performance reasons" you mention for MD going on so long - sometimes the "reasons" were in the dressing room. 'Nuff said...

[bigstickbonzo]

For me, that's spot on. As a member of the drumming community I feel that there are a lot of better soloists than Bonzo - Moby Dick just doesn't stand out.

Drums were my first instrument, been playing for 38 years now, and I like to hear a lot of drumming. Hell, I've even been to those Zildjian days & listened to whole days of drumming.

But the simple truth is this: as a soloist, Bonzo was desperately in need of editing.

Don't get me wrong - I love his playing, & the things he could do within the structure of a song are fantastic, but left to himself he rambled. On, & on, & on... etc

Good soloists, regardless of their level of technicality, are musical, & will structure their solo like a piece of music, with one idea leading to another, with dynamic growth, & with a climax. Bonzo didn't - his solos tend to be more along the lines of - play an idea, flog it to death, when it's run out of steam keep going anyway, then jump to another idea, & flog that one to death too. Repeat.

The only real structure to his solos was "sticks, hands, sticks" & over a 20 minute plus solo that just ain't enough variety to keep my interest.

I mentioned that a solo should have a climax - how often did Bonzo do that, & how often did he start out just as intensely as he finished, with very few dips inbetween. Physically impressive, but dynamically flat.

So, no - I'm not a huge fan of Moby Dick

It's a shame - because the things he could do with a drum kit are wonderous. But IMHO his talents are best viewed/listened to with the rest of the band playing at the same time.

For example - the live version of Kashmir from Knebworth that's on the official DVD has far more satisfying, impressive, musical & just plain fantastic drumming than any Moby Dick, ever.

Disclaimer: actually I'm right on this one

I dig your post. One thing that always impressed me about Buddy Rich was the amount of 'moves' he'd put into a 3 minute solo. That's sheer creative technique for you. Bonzo had it, but as you said, relied more on brute force and repeative elements to dominate his soloing. While I enjoy Bonzo and someone like Baker on 'Toad,' hearing a well thought out improv for 3 minutes is much better than a 20minute repeative solo.

[Fresh Garbage]

FreshGarbage - that's cool, we can disagree - I have no problem with that.

What I didn't like was Victor's assertion that people who didn't like Moby Dick "didn't get it".

I maintain my position that there are plenty of folks who "get" Moby Dick fine, but who just don't think it's as good as some of you other folk do.

It's fine to have differing opinions - makes the world go around & all that - & it's cool that some folks like MD while other folk don't, but when someone tells me that I dont "get it" that's insulting.

ps - those "performance reasons" you mention for MD going on so long - sometimes the "reasons" were in the dressing room. 'Nuff said...

That part I didn't agree with either...I

I did take it with a grain of salt considering I agreed with the rest of it ...but yeah, it was insulting

[Victor]

I wasn't in the least bit insulting, I actually feel sorry for people who dont get it, because you miss out on one of lifes/musics great moments.

[bigstickbonzo]

I wasn't in the least bit insulting, I actually feel sorry for people who dont get it, because you miss out on one of lifes/musics great moments.

I do get it and have gotten it since day 1. It is not however the best drum solo out there.

[Victor]

Good soloists, regardless of their level of technicality, are musical, & will structure their solo like a piece of music, with one idea leading to another, with dynamic growth, & with a climax. Bonzo didn't - his solos tend to be more along the lines of - play an idea, flog it to death, when it's run out of steam keep going anyway, then jump to another idea, & flog that one to death too. Repeat.

The only real structure to his solos was "sticks, hands, sticks" & over a 20 minute plus solo that just ain't enough variety to keep my interest.

I mentioned that a solo should have a climax - how often did Bonzo do that, & how often did he start out just as intensely as he finished, with very few dips inbetween. Physically impressive, but dynamically flat.

Just so people know what I'm referring to .... the above quote when I read it, to me it was the opposite of what really was the case. I always found Moby Dick to have a musical structure far ahead of any drummer I've heard, even back in the hands only Zep 2 version, some extremely simple slow patterns but theres something organic in the way the solo moves like an animal, pausing, dipping in its foot, trying again and keeping you on edge until it exploded. I always saw his ideas go from one to the next and he always had a mindblowing climax.e'g' watch the version on The Zep DVD at the Albert Hall, if that isnt a climax ending! or listen to the one on TSRTS

To me the above sounded like someone who hadnt listened at all, it seems the whole solo has been missed, I'd understand if he actually described what happens and then says why he doesnt like it, but what hes describing is diametrically different to the what Moby Dick is about. That can only lead me to the conclusion that

a. hes got mixed up with another drummer

b. hes not got it, its missed him, hes not listened...something along those lines.

Its got nothing to do with being insulting or trying a tactic to win an argument.

[supraphonic]

Just so people know what I'm referring to .... the above quote when I read it, to me it was the opposite of what really was the case. I always found Moby Dick to have a musical structure far ahead of any drummer I've heard, even back in the hands only Zep 2 version, some extremely simple slow patterns but theres something organic in the way the solo moves like an animal, pausing, dipping in its foot, trying again and keeping you on edge until it exploded. I always saw his ideas go from one to the next and he always had a mindblowing climax.e'g' watch the version on The Zep DVD at the Albert Hall, if that isnt a climax ending! or listen to the one on TSRTS

To me the above sounded like someone who hadnt listened at all, it seems the whole solo has been missed, I'd understand if he actually described what happens and then says why he doesnt like it, but what hes describing is diametrically different to the what Moby Dick is about. That can only lead me to the conclusion that

a. hes got mixed up with another drummer

b. hes not got it, its missed him, hes not listened...something along those lines.

Its got nothing to do with being insulting or trying a tactic to win an argument.

again you are able to see into music and not at it , unlike those who (hear but dont listen) . this is the difference between a musician and a player . ok so bonzo wasnt the technician other drum soloist 's were ,but i find most other solo's are all snare drum ,not many make the kit 'live' the way he did. ive had lessons with Louie Bellson and Carmine Appice and these were great drummers who i admire,but they could not do what i like about Bonzo , i am not saying he was better than past and present drumming legends,it is a personal thing what you prefer or not or whether you hear it or not , if you dont "Get it" i believe only refers only to a receptive ability,it is not an insult .

[panglos]

i usually find Moby Dick much more interesting when there's a video of it. seeing Bonzo actually play it is amazing.

I can relate to this post. I love to watch the DVD, Royal Hall 1970 performance. I tend to let the other versions play, but I'm not paying as much attention to the solo.

As far as the length, I guess that's why they call it Moby Dick and not The Slithery Minnow. I don't care much for solo work of any sort for long. I much prefer the ensemble.

[Cactus]

The cinematography at RAH is really interesting on Moby Dick. I love when he really gets going and his hair is flying back, it looks like there is a fan in his face. At first it looks like he is playing impossibly fast and the footage must be sped up, but then you look closely and the footage is perfectly in sync at all times - no trickery, just Bonzo.

[Victor]

The cinematography at RAH is really interesting on Moby Dick. I love when he really gets going and his hair is flying back, it looks like there is a fan in his face. At first it looks like he is playing impossibly fast and the footage must be sped up, but then you look closely and the footage is perfectly in sync at all times - no trickery, just Bonzo.

Its funny that you should say that...One of the most striking things I remember from seeing Zep at the last night of Earls Court was watching Bonzo at full pelt in Moby Dick, and thinking he looks like sped up film, except he was there on stage in front of me. Thats one of the reasons so many people sat there with wide open mouths!

[danelectro59]

On the HTWWW version of Moby Dick, Does anybody else feel that the drum solo goes on for way to long. The entire track is around 19:00 in total, with the bulk of that time being taken up by the solo.

I love HTWWW, for the most part, but find it hard to stay away during that track.

I love Moby Dick too.

Having been drummer for nearly 4 decades now, I can say that drum solos are like anything else. Some nights they're totally hot and others not so hot.

I've heard a few versions of MB and been impressed by most. Bonzo's kit is the most powerful sounding of all rock drummers period.

But then again, I love The Mule by Deep Purple and Toad by Cream as well.

[danelectro59]

On the HTWWW version of Moby Dick, Does anybody else feel that the drum solo goes on for way to long. The entire track is around 19:00 in total, with the bulk of that time being taken up by the solo.

I love HTWWW, for the most part, but find it hard to stay away during that track.

One of the best parts of Moby Dick is the fill at the beginning of the song, and after the solo.

Not hard to play, but it kills me every time i hear it.

[badgeholder]

Yeah, another cool thing, that intro lick. Well, my two cents: you guys do know that Jimmy & Robert were getting blowjobs backstage during Moby Dick, right? So, the length of the solo wasn't always a MUSICAL decision, ok? Other factors here. I'm just sayin'.("Keep playing! they're not back yet!"_

But, like the guy above said, soloists will have their good nights and bad nights. Bonzo would often drive the crowd wild with Moby Dick. But it wasn't a "solo" like Buddy Rich's, it was more a break in the set and Bonzo was going to just take the time to work out on his kit for a bit, those can dig it (like me) would settle into their seats and cheer him on. Others were free to hit the concession stand. Same with No Quarter. And so Bonzo would then try to make those who split PAY by getting the crowd going. They would hear the cheers and rush back in, all "what's happening?" I do love Jimmy Page for including Moby Dick on HTWWW, TSRTS and the DVD. He could've given in to the temptation to edit, but NO, total respect.

[Predator]

Changing the way I said my last post, but, I love the HTWWW drum solo. Yah 20 minutes is long, but its not a song that your supposed to listen to all in one shot on an MP3 player or something, it was a fuckin amazing performance you have to see live and then the 20 minute solo is an epic. you gotta listen to it on a long walk or in a long drive or something to fully appreciate it while listening to it on an mp3 player or something

[docron]

For the people that dislike the longer songs.. try the circa 1970 shows...

Dazed and Confused was typically only 16-17 minutes compared to the 30 minute ones from '73 onward.., and Moby Dick was only about 12-15 minutes.

Personally, I think it was all the medleys that ruined Dazed and Confused for me - that song is good enough to stand alone w/out medleys - violin bow solo and all. If you ask me, they should have limited the medleys to How Many More Times and Whole Lotta Love, which were the bands "get loose and boogie/interact with the crowd" songs

As for Moby Dick, although I generally skip them on bootlegs, is still a testament to Bonham's playing. I still far prefer the concise Pat's Delight circa 1969, which was just as entertaining, but was only typically about 10 minutes long (sometimes as short as 6 minutes).

So I agree, Moby Dick does seem to drag on forever... probably one of those things you had to witness in person to truly appreciate and enjoy (if you're not a drummer/musician). Its a bummer I'm only 23.

[bigstickbonzo]

I can say that drum solos are like anything else. Some nights they're totally hot and others not so hot.

Exactly. Some shows I can solo for a solid 5minutes between songs just from pure adrenaline, the crowd or it just sounding that good in the groove. Other shows, you can just feel yourself off that night and play to work through it, but keep it subdued and short as well. I think that goes for any instrument.

[kashmiran]

I love Moby Dick HTWWW.

[the-ocean87]

CHeck out this version of Earls Court from May 25th

http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=JCw0Do0xKyI

Very great and much better than the 24th version!!!!!!!