War in Ukraine

[JohnOsbourne]

6 hours ago, redrum said:

Pence looks like a frikkin' alien. 

Pence is a classic example of how the Deep State uses sexual blackmail to keep its errand boys in line.  He's clearly some kind of pervert, and I doubt it's women he likes.  

[JohnOsbourne]

7 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I was unaware of such a charade. Sounds ridiculous. Lynchpin of the democratic world. 🤣

What I'd say is a far more reasonable take is a lot of eastern Europe would have been at risk if Russia absorbed Ukraine in the early stages. Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania possibly Poland and/or Romania... Old mate Putin was looking for empire restoration. Nothing less.

Pure unhinged hysteria and lunacy.  There is not even a shred of evidence to support this claim, but even if it's true, so what?  Why is the security of the Baltics or any other ex-Soviet shithole a legitimate national concern of the US?  Let me guess:  reductio ad Hitler?

BTW, can you explain to me why democracy is an inherently superior form of government, such that war must be resorted to in its defense?  From what I can see, the democracies of the West are cesspools of corruption, degeneracy/perversion, and terror.  Do Russia and China sexualize children like the US?   Why are you ok with that?

[rm2551]

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

The early stages? Half of those countries have been NATO members for nearly 20 YEARS now.

Yeah, I reckon Putin was not overly concerned with that. His ambition was made clear.

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

This conflict is strictly and solely about all of the Biden Administration's saber rattling about Ukraine also becoming a member of NATO. Putin was not going to stand for NATO membership being extend to the border of Russia.

Incorrect. Ukraine did not want to be part of the Russian way of life. They looked to the west. For right or wrong, better or worse, they looked west. they wanted something different. At the core, that is what this conflict is about. Everything else is just dressing.

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Conflict could have ended in less than a month, with Russia carving out a slice of Ukraine

Why is that a desirable or acceptable (from the perspective of a "western" view) outcome? Might makes right?

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

illegal proxy war against Russia

Illegal? Not sure what you mean. All modern wars are proxy wars. it's part of war. Has been for +50years.

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Zelensky is every bit the dictator that Putin is.

Far out.

4 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

For anyone to suggest this unnecessary war is in defense of democracy is simply absurd.

I don't get that. It is exactly what it is about. Ukraine wants to be Ukraine. Not Russia.

So put it this way, what is Zelenskyy/Ukraine trying to defend? Russia invaded. They were not invited. What else is there?

Cheers.

[JohnOsbourne]

Russia's execution of the war has been far from perfect, but ultimately, they have exceeded all of their pre-war objectives:

1.  They control more territory than before the war (likely to increase).

2.  Ukraine will not join NATO (as is clear from the latest NATO summit).

3.  Ukraine's military capability has been destroyed.

By contrast, the US played their trump card (see what I did there) WAY too early:  by weaponizing the dollar from the outset, they not only failed to destroy the Russian economy (they did wonders for the European economy, LOL), but they called into being the forces that will destroy the petrodollar system, the ultimate source of US imperial power since the end of WW2.  They also brought together their two main rivals (Russia and China), to say nothing of several important supporting countries (India, Saudi Arabia, Brazil).  Future historians (if there are any) will marvel at how the US Empire utterly sabotaged itself here. 

 

[SteveAJones]

7 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

BTW, can you explain to me why democracy is an inherently superior form of government, such that war must be resorted to in its defense? 

Generally speaking, Democracy is an inherently superior form of government because war is reserved as a last resort. Of course, not in Ukraine where a corrupt and discredited US political administration continues to wage an illegal proxy war without the consent of the governed.

6 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Yeah, I reckon Putin was not overly concerned with that. His ambition was made clear.

Incorrect. Ukraine did not want to be part of the Russian way of life. They looked to the west. For right or wrong, better or worse, they looked west. they wanted something different. At the core, that is what this conflict is about. Everything else is just dressing.

Why is that a desirable or acceptable (from the perspective of a "western" view) outcome? Might makes right?

Illegal? Not sure what you mean. All modern wars are proxy wars. it's part of war. Has been for +50years.

Far out.

I don't get that. It is exactly what it is about. Ukraine wants to be Ukraine. Not Russia.

So put it this way, what is Zelenskyy/Ukraine trying to defend? Russia invaded. They were not invited. What else is there?

Cheers.

I'm not sure you fully understand NATO Article V, the cornerstone principle of which is that an attack on one NATO member nation is an attack upon all of them. 

At it's core, this conflict is about the globalists waging a proxy war against Putin/Russia. They want Putin/Russia out of the way so they can further pursue their global government ambitions. Ukraine serves only as a globalist slush fund and as a battleground to test next generation weapons technology. Russian & Ukraine already co-existed peacefully. It was the West's push to extend NATO membership to Ukraine that provoked Putin/Russia to invade.

This is a US proxy war because war is being conducted without the consent of the governed. There has been no declaration of war issued by the US Congress. It is demonstrably false and intellectually disengenuous to assert "all modern wars are proxy wars and have been for 50 years". 

Zelensky is a snake oil salesman who shows his true colors as a tyrant each time the international community does not give him his way.   

 

[rm2551]

6 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Generally speaking, Democracy is an inherently superior form of government because war is reserved as a last resort. Of course, not in Ukraine where a corrupt and discredited US political administration continues to wage an illegal proxy war without the consent of the governed.

I'm not sure you fully understand NATO Article V, the cornerstone principle of which is that an attack on one NATO member nation is an attack upon all of them. 

At it's core, this conflict is about the globalists waging a proxy war against Putin/Russia. They want Putin/Russia out of the way so they can further pursue their global government ambitions. Ukraine serves only as a globalist slush fund and as a battleground to test next generation weapons technology. Russian & Ukraine already co-existed peacefully. It was the West's push to extend NATO membership to Ukraine that provoked Putin/Russia to invade.

This is a US proxy war because war is being conducted without the consent of the governed. There has been no declaration of war issued by the US Congress. It is demonstrably false and intellectually disengenuous to assert "all modern wars are proxy wars and have been for 50 years". 

Zelensky is a snake oil salesman who shows his true colors as a tyrant each time the international community does not give him his way.   

 

I understand the NATO charter and article 5. That's the entire attraction for all former eastern block nations who don't want what they had in the past.

At it's core, Russia invaded a sovereign state. That is it. You can define this as a proxy war for the US, I don't disagree, but it is what it is solely for the action of Russia invading it's neighbour. And ok, all wars are not proxy wars, BUT - geopolitics leverages/takes advantage of/uses the conflict to advance self interest without doubt in any/all conflicts. Just as you assess the US is doing here.

I agree to disagree about Zelensky. I reckon he is a legend leader and will go down in history as such. Time will tell.

[SteveAJones]

1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

I agree to disagree about Zelensky. I reckon he is a legend leader and will go down in history as such. Time will tell.

He's a snake oil salesman in a gulfstream jet. In that respect he reminds me of Hamid Karzai, former President of Afghanistan, who earned the nickname The Gucci Gangster for his penchant to be able to fleece the international community for weapons/funds. Both are very adept at playing opposing sides against each other. It's argubable if being a world class bullshit artist is a hallmark of legendary leadership,  but both are great at deceiving others, I'll grant them that.

[SteveAJones]

Former Vice President and 2024 Presidential candidate Mike Pence claimed this week that there are no Christian persecutions, based on a conversation he had with the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Apparently he's so ignorant of what's happening in the Ukraine that he doesn't even know the church split in two because the Ukrainian church has always been a branch of the Russian Orthodox Church, but for political reasons Zelensky allies pushed for them to split. But not everyone went along with the split; many Christians in Ukraine are still part of the Russian Orthodox Church, and those are the ones being persecuted. So it's not surprising at all that the head of the schismatic Ukrainian Orthodox Church, an ally of Zelensky, wouldn't tell Pence the truth about the Russian Orthodox priests who have been persecuted.

This just goes to prove that either Pence is disqualifyingly incompetent, or disqualifyingly dishonest.

[JohnOsbourne]

5 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

This just goes to prove that either Pence is disqualifyingly incompetent, or disqualifyingly dishonest.

Actually it's both.

[JohnOsbourne]

7 hours ago, rm2551 said:

At it's core, Russia invaded a sovereign state. That is it. You can define this as a proxy war for the US, I don't disagree, but it is what it is solely for the action of Russia invading it's neighbour.

And how many sovereign countries has America attacked in the post-Cold War era? 

You've got things exactly backwards here:  Russia didn't decide to attack Ukraine for absolutely no valid reason (e.g., because they're a bunch of meanies or because Hitler) and then the US decided to opportunistically (and cynically) join in a proxy war.  Rather, the US wanted war with Russia all along (as a stepping-stone to war with China), and provoked Russia into invading.    

[JohnOsbourne]

22 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

Generally speaking, Democracy is an inherently superior form of government because war is reserved as a last resort.

If by this you simply mean that democracy permits peaceful transfer of power between governments, then yes, that is the primary benefit of democracy.  However, if you mean to say that democracies do not start aggressive wars or commit major war crimes when they do go to war, then I disagree and I believe the historical record paints a very negative picture of democracy at war.  

[redrum]

Well come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Joe needs your help again,
He's got himself in a terrible jam,
Way over yonder in old U-Kran
So put down your coke and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

 

[SteveAJones]

8 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

If by this you simply mean that democracy permits peaceful transfer of power between governments, then yes, that is the primary benefit of democracy.  However, if you mean to say that democracies do not start aggressive wars or commit major war crimes when they do go to war, then I disagree and I believe the historical record paints a very negative picture of democracy at war.  

What I'm saying is generally speaking democracies seek to resolve domestic conflict politically and international conflict diplomtically. Communists, dictators and tyrants don't.

Edited July 17, 2023 by SteveAJones

[SteveAJones]

5 hours ago, redrum said:

Well come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Joe needs your help again,
He's got himself in a terrible jam,
Way over yonder in old U-Kran
So put down your coke and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

I can't stand Millennials but I hope not one of them has their life wasted dying in defense of Ukraine.

[redrum]

2 hours ago, SteveAJones said:

I can't stand Millennials but I hope not one of them has their life wasted dying in defense of Ukraine.

You know the dems are pushing for it. 

[rm2551]

22 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

for absolutely no valid reason

Putin made his reasons perfectly clear to the nation before the invasion in his love letter to the old empire and a few interviews he gave.

Ukraine posed no threat to Russia except for the invented one of NATO on the doorstep. And yeah, that should not be defined as "the reason" as Russia knows full well Europe do not want to attack or invade Russia. NOT A CENTIMETER. Never has been or likely will be and doesn't need to be. Putin knows it doesn't matter except for the security of those former Soviet Republic states that do not want what the Russian system offers. There is no "threat" to mother Russia. They just don't want that. Seems they want democracy. Probably for similar reasons Steve says. it's just a better way.

[SteveAJones]

23 minutes ago, rm2551 said:

Russia knows full well Europe do not want to attack or invade Russia. 

Yet the US is attacking Russia, in conjunction with NATO. The US has been formenting anti-Putin, anti-Russia propoganda for at least six years now. 

[JohnOsbourne]

1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

Putin made his reasons perfectly clear to the nation before the invasion in his love letter to the old empire and a few interviews he gave.

Ukraine posed no threat to Russia except for the invented one of NATO on the doorstep. And yeah, that should not be defined as "the reason" as Russia knows full well Europe do not want to attack or invade Russia. NOT A CENTIMETER. Never has been or likely will be and doesn't need to be. Putin knows it doesn't matter except for the security of those former Soviet Republic states that do not want what the Russian system offers. There is no "threat" to mother Russia. They just don't want that. Seems they want democracy. Probably for similar reasons Steve says. it's just a better way.

Obviously, Ukraine as such posed no threat to Russia, it was Ukraine as a NATO member - and hence US proxy state - that posed a threat.  As Steve pointed out, that fear has been justifiably borne out by the US/EU determination to fight to the last Ukrainian.  Let me ask:  how is the Russian position here any different from what the US would do if China tried to form a military alliance with Mexico?

It is completely irrelevant what the Ukraine or Baltics "want".  The US is under no obligation to provide these (largely fake) countries any kind of security guarantees.  Again, what US interest depends on having a military alliance with ex-Soviet entities?

BTW, if these countries want democracy, then they want their children to be sexualized.  That is the clear pattern in the West.  And don't kid yourself:  after these recent French riots and the "democratic" response to them (Macron blamed social media and called for censorship), I'm sure a lot of western Europeans are rethinking the entire liberal project.

[rm2551]

On 7/17/2023 at 9:58 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

Obviously, Ukraine as such posed no threat to Russia, it was Ukraine as a NATO member - and hence US proxy state - that posed a threat.  As Steve pointed out, that fear has been justifiably borne out by the US/EU determination to fight to the last Ukrainian.  Let me ask:  how is the Russian position here any different from what the US would do if China tried to form a military alliance with Mexico?

Ukraine as a NATO member only threatens Russia because it inhibits their aspirations of expansion. NOT because they actually fear NATO will all of a sudden decide to attack Russia. It is insane to think NATO could attack Russia. Their whole organisation is based on security, not aggression or conquest. And they are made up of the usual overly bureaucratic western countries that have to justify their actions to their free presses.

I do take your point on the Mexico analogy though. Cuba is the living example.

On 7/17/2023 at 9:58 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

It is completely irrelevant what the Ukraine or Baltics "want".  The US is under no obligation to provide these (largely fake) countries any kind of security guarantees.  Again, what US interest depends on having a military alliance with ex-Soviet entities?

Well, the US as part of NATO does have obligations for the baltic states (being they are in NATO) - but apart from that, I'd say the US interest is what it has always been - help others who want to have systems and societies based on freedoms, liberty and rule of law somewhat in line with how "the west" does things instead of the old failed dictatorships and kleptocracies they have had - and no longer want. And apart from that (since that really doesn't respond directly to what you say) the specific backing of Ukraine is no more than stopping a far bigger aggressor attacking a sovereign nation in what is likely to be the first of many from Russia - again - as stated by Putin himself in his love letter to the old empire that he has decided must be restored. His adventures in Georgia, Chechnya and the Crimea seemed to be a test to see what reactions they would provoke. He wrongfully assumed no interventions would be forthcoming when he invaded Ukraine. He was wrong.

I get that you guys see a lot more wrong with this than I do, that's fine. For me it is simply a good idea to back up a fairly new country that is trying to throw off the shackles of the old communist system which they no longer want and move toward the west. Toward a better way. Russia says no. Well it isn't their decision to make. Good that we are helping Ukraine. I think that is a trait of the west that should be admired. God knows there are plenty of misguided self-interest moves the US and the west make at times that are despicable. But I do concede, that does not rise to obligation necessarily. But I do believe it serves the interests of the US/West because we promote our values as the better form of Government. Not just talk, but to actually back up others.

I hope Ukraine get every inch of their land back. Fuck Putin's Russia. It's a mafia run hell hole from all accounts.

The sexualization of children comment I'll leave alone except to say that would be a +3 hours at the pub with a few brews to sort through that mess.

[cryingbluerain]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:11 PM, redrum said:

Well come on all of you big strong men,
Uncle Joe needs your help again,
He's got himself in a terrible jam,
Way over yonder in old U-Kran
So put down your coke and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

 

Funny how back in the 60's the left went nuts opposing the Vietnam War but this time they are in lockstep with the neo-cons in support of aiding Ukraine.  We'll see if they change their tune if worse comes to worst and we put boots on the ground which looks like is already beginning to happen.
 

[redrum]

30 minutes ago, cryingbluerain said:

Funny how back in the 60's the left went nuts opposing the Vietnam War but this time they are in lockstep with the neo-cons in support of aiding Ukraine.  We'll see if they change their tune if worse comes to worst and we put boots on the ground which looks like is already beginning to happen.
 

It's the same old song. The coffin and body bag industry is probably already gearing up. 

[SteveAJones]

3 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I'd say the US interest is what it has always been - help others who want to have systems and societies based on freedoms, liberty and rule of law somewhat in line with how "the west" does things

Is that new material? It kills! You need to be doing comedy clubs. Ukraine is a globalist slush fund that will be abandoned in yet another cut and run exit two seconds after the decision is made that there is nothing more to skim and steal. You can bank on it.

[SteveAJones]

54 minutes ago, cryingbluerain said:

Funny how back in the 60's the left went nuts opposing the Vietnam War but this time they are in lockstep with the neo-cons in support of aiding Ukraine.  We'll see if they change their tune if worse comes to worst and we put boots on the ground which looks like is already beginning to happen.

Were it not for the draft the Left couldn't have cared less about Vietnam. 

[JohnOsbourne]

8 hours ago, rm2551 said:

It is insane to think NATO could attack Russia.

What?  NATO IS attacking Russia, what's insane is to think otherwise.

 

8 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Well, the US as part of NATO does have obligations for the baltic states (being they are in NATO)

Obviously, the point is why the US entered into a security arrangement with them in the first place.  No national interest depends on it, and it's simply delusional to think the US is a noble force for good in the world.  

8 hours ago, rm2551 said:

I do take your point on the Mexico analogy though. Cuba is the living example.

If so, then you really have no other argument and you've conceded the central point.  If Mexico's sovereignty is contingent on what the US deems as critical to American interests, then there is no basis for losing your shit over Russia vis-a-vis the Ukraine.  Unless of course, all the moralistic bluster is just cover for US imperial expansion.

[SteveAJones]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:08 AM, JohnOsbourne said:

Obviously, the point is why the US entered into a security arrangement with them in the first place. 

NATO is a relic of the Cold War era. It was necessary to keep the threat of Russia in check so that post-WWII could prosper. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Germany doesn't even want US forces stationed in Germany anymore.