rm2551 Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 On 7/20/2023 at 5:04 PM, SteveAJones said: Is that new material? It kills! You need to be doing comedy clubs. Ukraine is a globalist slush fund that will be abandoned in yet another cut and run exit two seconds after the decision is made that there is nothing more to skim and steal. You can bank on it. I do not discount that will come to pass. On 7/20/2023 at 10:08 PM, JohnOsbourne said: What? NATO IS attacking Russia, what's insane is to think otherwise. I disagree. On 7/20/2023 at 10:08 PM, JohnOsbourne said: Obviously, the point is why the US entered into a security arrangement with them in the first place. No national interest depends on it, and it's simply delusional to think the US is a noble force for good in the world. I hope it is. There is nothing better so far. it's far from perfect, and I think the British parliament system is superior functionally speaking, but none better than the US overall. On 7/20/2023 at 10:08 PM, JohnOsbourne said: If so, then you really have no other argument and you've conceded the central point. If Mexico's sovereignty is contingent on what the US deems as critical to American interests, then there is no basis for losing your shit over Russia vis-a-vis the Ukraine. Unless of course, all the moralistic bluster is just cover for US imperial expansion. "If Mexico's sovereignty is contingent on what the US deems as critical to American interests" - this is where we differ. It may well be, but should it be? That is the only question. Should it be? US imperial expansion is very interesting from every angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 5 hours ago, rm2551 said: "If Mexico's sovereignty is contingent on what the US deems as critical to American interests" - this is where we differ. It may well be, but should it be? That is the only question. Should it be? It should not, but the reality is, it is dependent, and the US is in absolutely no position to be lecturing other countries about their interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 On 7/22/2023 at 5:49 AM, JohnOsbourne said: and the US is in absolutely no position to be lecturing other countries about their interests. agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrum Posted July 23, 2023 Share Posted July 23, 2023 Joe contemplating a draft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 16 hours ago, redrum said: Joe contemplating a draft? No, for a number of reasons. First and formost, it's political suicide. Secondly, the armed forces themselves do NOT want nor need a bunch of draftees. Third, it would take an Act of Congress (see point one). It is disgusting that by Executive Order he has placed reservists in standby to be called up in defense of Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Not many volunteers since the military #1. Went woke #2. Promoting Critical Race Theory #3. Commander-In-Cheese turned his back on his Marines in Afghanistan. I just got back from Ukraine. Should be more humanitarian volunteers on the corridor. Ukraine is getting blown to smithereens. Russia was fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 On 1/22/2024 at 3:42 PM, apantherfrommd said: Not many volunteers since the military #1. Went woke #2. Promoting Critical Race Theory #3. Commander-In-Cheese turned his back on his Marines in Afghanistan. #4. The quality of the volunteer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On 1/24/2024 at 6:27 AM, rm2551 said: #4. The quality of the volunteer. I agree with you, but the bar has been lowered dramatically. #5. (Equity) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 On topic: Ukraine will be using F-16 jets as early as June. Ukranians started training on them in October. Using them is also a red line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted February 22 Share Posted February 22 4 hours ago, apantherfrommd said: Ukraine will be using F-16 jets as early as June. Ukranians started training on them in October. Using them is also a red line. Putin's actual red line is if you set foot in his country. Of course, I'm a sideline stooge on a zep forum, but I'd bet it's very close to that. The US is no way going in for that, so everything else is strategic. I'm still hopeful Ukraine can prevail, but it's not going to be a good year for them. If they can make it into 2025 with fight left in them, I reckon they have a decent shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 20 hours ago, apantherfrommd said: On topic: Ukraine will be using F-16 jets as early as June. Ukranians started training on them in October. Using them is also a red line. Foolish escalation of two-year conflict Ukraine is clearly losing and will not win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrum Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 2 hours ago, SteveAJones said: Foolish escalation of two-year conflict Ukraine is clearly losing and will not win. Just like Vietnam. Escalation. The dems never learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 6 hours ago, SteveAJones said: Ukraine is clearly losing and will not win. I don't agree, but more than that, I hope you're wrong. The Russian system is not better than what they aspire to become and they are fighting to have the reality they choose for themselves. Aside from that, Russia is not the bottomless pit of meatwave resources it thinks it might be. They have plenty more in reserve, no question, but the attrition rate is staggering. I still reckon they are a chance if they can hold. Go Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted February 23 Share Posted February 23 Fuck Ukraine!! Our ehem, "Government" cried foul at the idea of spending 6 billion for our own border wall but 120 BILLION later for Ukraine isn't enough yet!!! Fuck biden fuck the democraps!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 18 hours ago, rm2551 said: I don't agree, but more than that, I hope you're wrong. You don't agree that Ukraine is losing? Is there some compelling explanation that suggests they are winning? The strategically important city of Avdiivka fell to the Russians just this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 12 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: Fuck Ukraine!! Our ehem, "Government" cried foul at the idea of spending 6 billion for our own border wall but 120 BILLION later for Ukraine isn't enough yet!!! Fuck biden fuck the democraps!!! All true but this folly goes back to the Budapest Memorandum agreement of 1994, where in exchange for denuclearization the US, UK and Russia would guarentee Ukraine's security. It was all well and good until the Obama administration started making overtures about Ukraine joining NATO. Putin was never going to stand for that, and unfortunately took the bait and invaded, leading to this globalist proxy war against Russia. This conflict is about attempting to defeat Putin and Russia to usher in globalist aims and objectives. Anyone who thinks Ukraine became some bastion of freedom and democracy is a sucker. Ukraine is little more than a globalist slush fund for defense contractors...and if Trump is reelected US aid and involvement will end within days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 43 minutes ago, SteveAJones said: All true but this folly goes back to the Budapest Memorandum agreement of 1994, where in exchange for denuclearization the US, UK and Russia would guarentee Ukraine's security. It was all well and good until the Obama administration started making overtures about Ukraine joining NATO. Putin was never going to stand for that, and unfortunately took the bait and invaded, leading to this globalist proxy war against Russia. This conflict is about attempting to defeat Putin and Russia to usher in globalist aims and objectives. Anyone who thinks Ukraine became some bastion of freedom and democracy is a sucker. Ukraine is little more than a globalist slush fund for defense contractors...and if Trump is reelected US aid and involvement will end within days. Yup! The Soros Administration, 10 years gone, proudly raised its arm to take credit for the Maidan uprising via the Non-Government Organizations it had planted. They folded their arms and basically observed the take over of Crimea. They forfeited the Budapest agreement and sent Ukraine blankets, band-aids, and some nice night-vision goggles. It's the same people 10 years ago as now. Again dangling NATO like a carrot in 2021. Russia answered. After defeating Ukraine in Avdiivka five days ago, the Russian army is expanding and pushing 5 directions from there while adding another 50,000 troops. Odesa will be next. Who knows, Russia may take up Transnistria on it's plea to be annexed (but that's a long shot). https://www.romaniajournal.ro/politics/transnistria-would-request-annexation-to-russia/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 On 2/22/2024 at 10:55 PM, SteveAJones said: Foolish escalation of two-year conflict Ukraine is clearly losing and will not win. Regarding the F-16s, there will be no way to know who is flying them, unless someone defects. My question is: Where would they take off and be landing? Romania? Unless Ukraine has an airstrip built underground which would be difficult because they don't really have many mountains. Escalation is stupid, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 1 hour ago, SteveAJones said: You don't agree that Ukraine is losing? Is there some compelling explanation that suggests they are winning? The strategically important city of Avdiivka fell to the Russians just this week. No, they are definitely not winning. I'm saying they are a chance if they can grind on over the summer and support makes a difference longer term. That's all. I wouldn't say "they are losing" - but I agree it's valid to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 24 Share Posted February 24 6 hours ago, apantherfrommd said: Regarding the F-16s, there will be no way to know who is flying them, unless someone defects. My question is: Where would they take off and be landing? Romania? Unless Ukraine has an airstrip built underground which would be difficult because they don't really have many mountains. I don't think other nations will permit Ukraine to launch F-16 sorties from outside of Ukraine. Ukraine claims it has a sufficient number of suitable airfields as well as portions of Ukranian expressways that could be used. Bear in mind these aircraft will be relatively few and all are more than 40 years old. F-16 pilots who believe these assets will be a game changer are few and far between. In my opinion, it's merely political theater. Specifically, it's just something Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte can cite as a leadership accomplishment when he runs to become the next NATO Secretary General or whatever NATO senior leadership position he's chasing. 5 hours ago, rm2551 said: No, they are definitely not winning. I'm saying they have a chance if they can grind on over the summer and support makes a difference longer term. That's all. I wouldn't say "they are losing" - but I agree it's valid to say. Ok, so no compelling argument to present to suggest they are winning but you wouldn't say they are losing. Fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rm2551 Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 17 hours ago, SteveAJones said: Ok, so no compelling argument to present to suggest they are winning but you wouldn't say they are losing. Fair enough. I'll add, I don't think you can say Russia is winning. Right now, neither side is clearly "winning". it's fluid. Would you agree? Russia is gaining the upper hand, no question, but I wouldn't say winning. The sacrifice in men and machines Russia is (as always) willing to throw at their "operation" is not sustainable long term especially given the few gains to show for it. Don't get me wrong, they are the masters of meat wave tactics. They have worked for them in the past (Napoleon, Hitler), but given current gains for losses in manpower and hardware, it just ain't sustainable. The biggest obstacle Ukraine has is support from Europe and the US. The biggest thing Ukraine have going for them is support from Europe and the US. The next 6 months will determine if Russia wins or not. For one, it will be clear what support long term they are going to get. No point continuing if support is withdrawn, it's over for Ukraine. I support continues/increases, the war will still rage a lot longer, but if Russia cannot show an ability to make real progress on the ground and really force Ukraine into a corner ("peace" talks) by the end of the coming summer, it's over for Russia. They will just get weaker until Putin is inevitable replaced. Geopolitically like I said, it comes down to does the west give a fuck about autocracy spreading into Europe and will it support Ukraine or not. Even a conservative, more nationalist leaning west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 6 hours ago, rm2551 said: I'll add, I don't think you can say Russia is winning. Right now, neither side is clearly "winning". it's fluid. Would you agree? No. In fact, I'd say it's completely delusional to think that Russia isn't obviously winning. In fact, they've exceeded all of their pre-war aims. They control 1/5 of Ukraine's territory. They control more than their pre-war objectives and are well-situated to take even more if they want. (They've basically made clear that Poland can have Galicia if they just get sensible.) Ukraine has lost half its population (mainly from people leaving) and has to resort to appalling impressment campaigns just to get teenage and elderly conscripts for the meat grinder. The average age of the Ukrainian soldier is 43. Ukraine is finished as a military force and won't be joining NATO. (Despite massive support from the US and EU, the Ukrainian army is arguably in worse shape than the Wehrmacht in 1945, which was after 4+ years of fighting the entire world.) This is a war of attrition in which Russia clearly has the upper hand, barring American entry (which isn't gonna happen). This says nothing of the shocking geopolitical developments, which have greatly strengthened China and gutted German industrial capacity and generally put the US Empire on shaky ground. The real issue isn't whether Russia is winning, but rather how badly the US is losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 15 hours ago, rm2551 said: I'll add, I don't think you can say Russia is winning. Right now, neither side is clearly "winning". it's fluid. Would you agree? It'll be a pyrrhic victory for Russia in the end. Putin took the bait and got embroiled in a proxy war with the US & Europe. This is not the conflict Russia sought, they were goaded into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 37 minutes ago, SteveAJones said: It'll be a pyrrhic victory for Russia in the end. Putin took the bait and got embroiled in a proxy war with the US & Europe. This is not the conflict Russia sought, they were goaded into it. Pyrrhic in what way? The Russian economy is as strong as ever, the sanctions have completely backfired (unless of course it was America's intention to destroy Europe's economy, which can't be ruled out). Even if the US/EU continues sending weapons (and there is clear domestic resistance on doing this endlessly), they can't send more soldiers (unless the EU deports back refugees or Kiev starts drafting women, which would actually be hilarious). Russia's real geopolitical problem here is that they will now be China's junior partner when the US Empire falls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveAJones Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 4 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said: Pyrrhic in what way? Russia's real geopolitical problem here is that they will now be China's junior partner when the US Empire falls. You have correctly answered your own question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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