gibsonfan159 Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 18 hours ago, Wolfman said: My question is this. Was there any film in those video cameras on stage? Now that would be a find. Pretty sure those are broadcast cameras, not film reels. They simply transferred the image to the overhead screen. The signal would have to be recorded offstage somewhere (like the Seattle footage was). It seems plausible that with this many cameras onstage (blocking the view of the audience even) that their intention could've been to document this to an offstage source just like Seattle. But as others have mentioned if the footage actually exists it would've likely been used in the DVD (since the inferior Seattle was). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvlz2 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMH Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Sounds like the audience tape cleaned up very nicely! Three more hours to do 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bong-Man Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Having seen this show, there's one thing I was always curious about. I and many others that attended have complained about the poor audio quality. I've always mentioned, "Sick Again" as being the worst song of the show for that reason. The bootleg and this new sync to video seem to reflect that. In our seats, it was just a mess of noise. Zeppelin noise, but still a mess. The sound did seem to improve a bit as the concert went on. Looking at the tour dates, they had yet to play an arena anywhere near this large. Considering the size and shape of the Silverdome, it seems amazing to me that the band never performed any kind of actual sound check. They couldn't have done it personally, because they weren't even in town. They flew in from Chicago right before the show. There also was no one else on the bill playing beforehand. I'm curious if anyone knows if this was standard procedure for this tour to not do a soundcheck by the actual band members? Am I off-base thinking that under the circumstances, this was a bit unusual? Appreciate everyone's efforts for making this happen. Watching a show at 64 that I saw at 17 is mind-blowing on so many levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveZ98 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Bong-Man said: Having seen this show, there's one thing I was always curious about. I and many others that attended have complained about the poor audio quality. I've always mentioned, "Sick Again" as being the worst song of the show for that reason. The bootleg and this new sync to video seem to reflect that. In our seats, it was just a mess of noise. Zeppelin noise, but still a mess. The sound did seem to improve a bit as the concert went on. Looking at the tour dates, they had yet to play an arena anywhere near this large. Considering the size and shape of the Silverdome, it seems amazing to me that the band never performed any kind of actual sound check. My understanding is that the larger the venue is, the less useful the soundcheck is because there's no way to simulate the impact of 76,000 people on the sound before the crowd is actually in the arena. However, I have to imagine Showco did shows for other artists in the that stadium, so they should have had some insight into the challenges of getting decent sound there. For what it's worth, this article explains Showco's setup for Zep's gig in Seattle later that year and the challenges of getting good sound in such a large stadium. The part about Zep starts on page 44: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Modern-Recording/70s/Modern-Recording-1978-02.pdf Here's a quote from it that explains some of the issues involved in large arenas: "...one of the problems involved in sound reproduction is the difficulty of accomplishing proper high- frequency projection. The more he looked at the problem, the greater the realization that air plays a major role. "Sound evidently is affected drastically by thermal differences. Obviously the body heat of a crowd is much hotter in the crowd than two to three feet above it, and therefore layers are formed. If sound is down low, though while it appears to bounce off this layer, it is actually [being] focused upwards. In a hockey rink, for example, supposedly the opposite is true - sound will focus down on the ice floor. The problem is similar to the illusion of water patches on the highway that disappear as you get closer. To eliminate the problem we wanted to get high enough to get above this angle and eliminate the total reflection. Our major concern when we started to put systems this high (30 feet) was the coverage down front. By tilting some cabinets down from that height we are able to project a lot of mids and highs in front of the protective barrier around the stage. After you've walked through a crowd during a show you notice that the mids and highs are a lot stronger when heard from a platform compared to what's heard at head height, so to compensate we've come down on the crowd so that the sound will not go over the heads of those close to the stage or in the infield." Edited January 2 by SteveZ98 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bong-Man Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 ^ ^ Thanks Steve. An interesting read. That magazine is an old reminder of things I wanted to afford back in the day but couldn't. Zep was pushing a lot more volume than other artists, which may have caused a lot of the echo effect. I will say it was by far the loudest show at the Dome I had seen up to that point. As far as airflow and stratified air in a venue, there probably wasn't much worse than the Silverdome. I remember actual breezes in there, and the inside pressure to keep the roof up was constant. As the article states, throw in 76,000 bodies and things change yet again. We do know Bonham did a soundcheck for Oakland on the '77 tour, and there were others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josemanno Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) Speaking of sound checks in an indoor venue of such, really every large indoor event.....I think it'd be great just to have the band come out early, do some rarities or not, Ala "Shakin All Over" sndchk.....jam..and get the best sound, soundmen and band workin together with a full arena....Bonus for everyone ! Just a half hour or so..... embarrassing gremlins be damned...then on with the show...doesn't seem to outlandish.... Edited January 3 by Josemanno Adds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 On 1/2/2024 at 1:07 PM, SteveZ98 said: My understanding is that the larger the venue is, the less useful the soundcheck is because there's no way to simulate the impact of 76,000 people on the sound before the crowd is actually in the arena. However, I have to imagine Showco did shows for other artists in the that stadium, so they should have had some insight into the challenges of getting decent sound there. For what it's worth, this article explains Showco's setup for Zep's gig in Seattle later that year and the challenges of getting good sound in such a large stadium. The part about Zep starts on page 44: https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-Modern-Recording/70s/Modern-Recording-1978-02.pdf Here's a quote from it that explains some of the issues involved in large arenas: "...one of the problems involved in sound reproduction is the difficulty of accomplishing proper high- frequency projection. The more he looked at the problem, the greater the realization that air plays a major role. "Sound evidently is affected drastically by thermal differences. Obviously the body heat of a crowd is much hotter in the crowd than two to three feet above it, and therefore layers are formed. If sound is down low, though while it appears to bounce off this layer, it is actually [being] focused upwards. In a hockey rink, for example, supposedly the opposite is true - sound will focus down on the ice floor. The problem is similar to the illusion of water patches on the highway that disappear as you get closer. To eliminate the problem we wanted to get high enough to get above this angle and eliminate the total reflection. Our major concern when we started to put systems this high (30 feet) was the coverage down front. By tilting some cabinets down from that height we are able to project a lot of mids and highs in front of the protective barrier around the stage. After you've walked through a crowd during a show you notice that the mids and highs are a lot stronger when heard from a platform compared to what's heard at head height, so to compensate we've come down on the crowd so that the sound will not go over the heads of those close to the stage or in the infield." The Who were the first band to play the Silverdome when it opened in 1975. Elvis Presley, Elton John, and several big rock and jazz festivals were held all through the year 1976 before Led Zeppelin landed at the Silverdome in 1977. I imagine Showco had a hand in a few of those events, if not all. As for tape existing of the Silverdome concert. Of the four big events where we have 100% evidence of Led Zeppelin using big video screens to project images for the audience (1975 Earls Court, 1977 Silverdome, 1977 Seattle Kingdome, and 1979 Knebworth), we have tapes for three of those events...Earls Court, Seattle, and Knebworth. Two of those events were multitracked as well, suggesting the band was eyeing a possible release of the show in the future...those being Earls Court and Knebworth. Which makes the existence of video tapes for those shows logical. The cynic might therefore doubt the existence of Silverdome videotape, given the lack of multitracks which suggests the band had no interest in having any tapes recorded of the Silverdome gig for historical or other purposes. Ah, but what about the existence of Seattle Kingdome videotape? That show wasn't multitracked either, yet we have videotape for it. So, since we have videotapes for 3 of the 4 video screen events, whether the show was multitracked or not, reason says that there are probably videotapes of the Silverdome show. It's just been more highly guarded than the others were. I guess that woman who stole a bunch of tapes from Jimmy Page's house couldn't get her fingers on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zep Hed Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 In the book The Man Who Led Zeppelin, there's a quote from JPJ. "When we played at the Pontiac Superbowl (sic) everyone said it was like playing a soundcheck in the dark. Presumably the crowd were having a good time but we couldn’t see them. Even the crush barriers were sixty feet away, so I never saw anybody. There was no vibe in the place and you begin to think, ‘What are we doing this for?’" There you go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 20 hours ago, Strider said: The Who were the first band to play the Silverdome when it opened in 1975. Elvis Presley, Elton John, and several big rock and jazz festivals were held all through the year 1976 before Led Zeppelin landed at the Silverdome in 1977. I imagine Showco had a hand in a few of those events, if not all. As for tape existing of the Silverdome concert. Of the four big events where we have 100% evidence of Led Zeppelin using big video screens to project images for the audience (1975 Earls Court, 1977 Silverdome, 1977 Seattle Kingdome, and 1979 Knebworth), we have tapes for three of those events...Earls Court, Seattle, and Knebworth. Two of those events were multitracked as well, suggesting the band was eyeing a possible release of the show in the future...those being Earls Court and Knebworth. Which makes the existence of video tapes for those shows logical. The cynic might therefore doubt the existence of Silverdome videotape, given the lack of multitracks which suggests the band had no interest in having any tapes recorded of the Silverdome gig for historical or other purposes. Ah, but what about the existence of Seattle Kingdome videotape? That show wasn't multitracked either, yet we have videotape for it. So, since we have videotapes for 3 of the 4 video screen events, whether the show was multitracked or not, reason says that there are probably videotapes of the Silverdome show. It's just been more highly guarded than the others were. I guess that woman who stole a bunch of tapes from Jimmy Page's house couldn't get her fingers on them. One part of me wants to agree and keep hope alive for a pro shot Pontiac. The cynical side realizes Page has licensed snowboards, sneakers, and toy cars to make an extra buck and a 77 pro shot release would definitely be out there in some form if he had it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Defilippis Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 ....something EXTREMELY DECEPTIVE (in an incredibly positive way, to be certain) ...about the overall look of the gig on this video...that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this gig really was....because of the particular angle he's filming from, coupled with the high mm lens he's using...in addition to all the activity / number of people filming all over the place for video screen....gives the false impression that A. the stage was much lower than it actually was (it literally appears to be similar in height to 73 MSG SRTS stage)...and B. much closer to the crowd than it actually was (again very much like TSRTS) .....these two deceptions absolutely offer an appearance of warmth that, as JPJ righly stated about these stadium gigs, was not there at all..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bong-Man Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Looking at the various sizes of 8mm film cameras in the late 60's and 70's, I'd be interested in knowing how Jim Kelly got a camera into the venue. It was a pretty risky thing to do in those days. Too big for a guy to hide on his body, and you took the chance of having your camera or recorder bring confiscated. Perhaps he had inside connections, or a woman's purse to assist. Lol.... pregnant with half a basketball? I've always figured security concerns were much of the reason only one audience recording has ever surfaced from the 76,000 in attendance. It's a shame Mr. Kelly still isn't with us to relate some of the finer details of his experience. For all we know, he may have been moving around a bit because he feared being spotted with a camera close to the stage. If Jim Kelly was Canadian, it should be pointed out that this was an international concert. Zep didn't play Toronto on this tour, and there's 2.5 million people that live between Toronto and Michigan in Southwest Ontario. The Silverdome was their best shot at seeing the band. There was no limit on tickets, and that 3-hour sellout was helped along by ticket agencies who were given their share before they went on sale to the public. That pissed off a lot of people who braved the cold to stand in line for tickets without a reward. This was the first concert I bought a scalped ticket for ($15 bucks), and those arrangements were made before tickets even went on sale. The seller in question already knew his allotment. We didn't have our tickets in hand until a week before the show. That would give any fan some Zep paranoia. I saw 4 shows at the Silverdome prior to Zeppelin, all in 1976. There is audio and video available from the screen for Aerosmith, Bob Seger, and Elton John, all available on utube. None for Jethro Tull (don't remember if there was a screen). The Who from December 1975 is on utube from the screen. Their footage was even used in the film, "The Kids Are Alright". Elvis from New Year's Eve 1975 is not, but he performed a different stage setup at the 50 yard line, so I'm doubting one was even used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 13 hours ago, Tony Defilippis said: ....something EXTREMELY DECEPTIVE (in an incredibly positive way, to be certain) ...about the overall look of the gig on this video...that is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what this gig really was....because of the particular angle he's filming from, coupled with the high mm lens he's using...in addition to all the activity / number of people filming all over the place for video screen....gives the false impression that A. the stage was much lower than it actually was (it literally appears to be similar in height to 73 MSG SRTS stage)...and B. much closer to the crowd than it actually was (again very much like TSRTS) .....these two deceptions absolutely offer an appearance of warmth that, as JPJ righly stated about these stadium gigs, was not there at all..... Anyone who has seen the photos of the Silverdome show on this site or in media coverage of the event can see that the stage was higher and the crowd further back than Madison Square Garden. The staging for the Silverdome was similar to their stage setup for the Kingdome and Oakland-Alameda Coliseum that same tour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 (edited) 18 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said: One part of me wants to agree and keep hope alive for a pro shot Pontiac. The cynical side realizes Page has licensed snowboards, sneakers, and toy cars to make an extra buck and a 77 pro shot release would definitely be out there in some form if he had it. You mistook my point. I never said anything about a release of a pro-shot 1977 video. I have said for years that there can't be any official release by Jimmy of a 1977 show because so far we have zero evidence that any 1977 concert was recorded professionally. They didn't record at any of the Forum concerts I saw and there is nothing to suggest Madison Square Garden, Silverdome, Kingdome, Oakland, or any other 1977 shows were recorded on multitracks. All we have are soundboards and in the case of Seattle Kingdome, a videotrack. That was the point I was making...that even though the band was not recording any of the 1977 shows for posterity, somehow we still got videotape of the Seattle Kingdome show. Which suggests the likely possibility of the existence of Silverdome video tapes. But because there would only be a soundboard or videotrack audio component, it's not something Jimmy is going to put out like he did with Earls Court and Knebworth on the 2003 DVD. Unlike Earls Court, Knebworth, and Seattle Kingdome, the Silverdome video has somehow remained tucked away in the vault and remained free from the clutches of collectors and bootleggers. Edited January 6 by Strider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bong-Man Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 Quote All we have are soundboards and in the case of Seattle Kingdome, a videotrack. That was the point I was making...that even though the band was not recording any of the 1977 shows for posterity, somehow we still got videotape of the Seattle Kingdome show. Which suggests the likely possibility of the existence of Silverdome video tapes. But because there would only be a soundboard or sidetrack audio component, it's not something Jimmy is going to put out like he did with Earls Court and Knebworth on the 2003 DVD.. I concur with everything you said. They have or had the video. Not a doubt in my mind. Peter Grant & crew would take your camera or tape recorder. Why wouldn't he make sure to take what He was paying for, and supposedly didn't want to use in the first place? The only thing I heard on the radio was about 6 weeks after the show. A DJ claimed the Zep camp came into the booth being utilized and took the video. Makes sense to me. They may not have wanted it for their own purposes, but they certainly didn't want anyone else to have it. I agree with your audio conclusions as well. Just listen to the Who's "Road Runner" from the movie "The Kids Are Alright". That echo you hear would turn Jimmy off in an instant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gibsonfan159 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 We shouldn't forget that the Seattle footage was used in the OTHAFA promotional video from 1990, so Jimmy is definitely willing to use 77 footage to some extent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reids Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 10 hours ago, Bong-Man said: Looking at the various sizes of 8mm film cameras in the late 60's and 70's, I'd be interested in knowing how Jim Kelly got a camera into the venue. It was a pretty risky thing to do in those days. Too big for a guy to hide on his body, and you took the chance of having your camera or recorder bring confiscated. Perhaps he had inside connections, or a woman's purse to assist. Lol.... pregnant with half a basketball? I've always figured security concerns were much of the reason only one audience recording has ever surfaced from the 76,000 in attendance. It's a shame Mr. Kelly still isn't with us to relate some of the finer details of his experience. For all we know, he may have been moving around a bit because he feared being spotted with a camera close to the stage. If Jim Kelly was Canadian, it should be pointed out that this was an international concert. Zep didn't play Toronto on this tour, and there's 2.5 million people that live between Toronto and Michigan in Southwest Ontario. The Silverdome was their best shot at seeing the band. There was no limit on tickets, and that 3-hour sellout was helped along by ticket agencies who were given their share before they went on sale to the public. That pissed off a lot of people who braved the cold to stand in line for tickets without a reward. This was the first concert I bought a scalped ticket for ($15 bucks), and those arrangements were made before tickets even went on sale. The seller in question already knew his allotment. We didn't have our tickets in hand until a week before the show. That would give any fan some Zep paranoia. I saw 4 shows at the Silverdome prior to Zeppelin, all in 1976. There is audio and video available from the screen for Aerosmith, Bob Seger, and Elton John, all available on utube. None for Jethro Tull (don't remember if there was a screen). The Who from December 1975 is on utube from the screen. Their footage was even used in the film, "The Kids Are Alright". Elvis from New Year's Eve 1975 is not, but he performed a different stage setup at the 50 yard line, so I'm doubting one was even used. From a tribute site to Jim “Speedy” Kelly, one person (Rick Hoeg) gives some insight to “Speedy”, his love for others, his work and his access: https://www.tributearchive.com/obituaries/23803247/james-patrick-kelly/wall R😎 Edited January 7 by reids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Defilippis Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) 11 hours ago, Strider said: Anyone who has seen the photos of the Silverdome show on this site or in media coverage of the event can see that the stage was higher and the crowd further back than Madison Square Garden. The staging for the Silverdome was similar to their stage setup for the Kingdome and Oakland-Alameda Coliseum that same tour. .....exactly right.....in fact, after the July 73 MSG gigs, that lower stage / smaller stage / no drum riser / front row right on top of photo pit set-up was gone forever in America....the 10th n 11th US tours, even all the indoor arena gigs, that all ended .....that's another reason why this video is so special.....it looks like something it AIN'T....in a really cool way..... Edited January 7 by Tony Defilippis wording Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achillestand Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightsofNi Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 Thanks Speedy. Whether the mythic tape of the entire concert exists or not, your video has made a lot of Zep kooks happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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