POL-pourri

[Del Zeppnile]

As I said before, Adolf Hitler got the idea of the Holocaust and the "Final Solution" from reading up on American History. It's in Mein Kompf. He further states what he respected most about America was the fact that its government could exterminate such a large body of its population yet move on and with time, leave the rest of the population forgetting it ever happened.

Adolph Hitler was obviously a mad man. His views in Mein Kampf are hardly the thoughts of a sane and rational human being. He may have sited American history as an example, but in the same book he also said blue eyes were the outward sign of a superior intelligence.

I respect your view, however your arguement fails to substantiate that the United States had a policy of 'genocide' against anyone. The unfortunate outcome of the combined pressures put on indigenous tribes (not only in North America) but through out history, is a fact. But to automatically claim that it was only due to policy decisions, or that it was designed to be genocidal in all cases, is a stretch of imagination. It's basically mythology.

[Agathon]

I respect your view, however your arguement fails to substantiate that the United States had a policy of 'genocide' against anyone. The unfortunate outcome of the combined pressures put on indigenous tribes (not only in North America) but through out history, is a fact. But to automatically claim that it was only due to policy decisions, or that it was designed to be genocidal in all cases, is a stretch of imagination. It's basically mythology.

"Genocide" doesn't have to mean murder. It can mean the destruction of a people as a cultural unit through destruction of their way of life. Expansionist policies in all countries with significant populations could easily be argued to be genocidal in that sense.

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#Coin...e_term_genocide

In the sense that US policy required the mass displacement of native peoples and the consequent destruction of their cultures, it could be fairly argued to be genocidal. But such policies occurred also in Australia, so it is not unique.

[bigstickbonzo]

Adolph Hitler was obviously a mad man.

Obviously!

But obviously America the Beautiful, America the Pure, America the Innocent has never had mad men at the helm.

Your blatant denial of what genocide is, despite it being clearly defined to you, goes to show that you truely are ignorant to our history. Ignorance comes from a lack of education.

[Hermit]

.

Report: 2 dead in Tibet riots

Chinese police 'open fire on crowds' during march led by monks in Lhasa

BEIJING - At least two people were killed in rioting Friday as protests led by Buddhist monks against Chinese rule in Tibet turned violent, according to a report.

U.S. government-funded Radio Free Asia said troops using both live ammunition and tear gas fired on crowds torching vehicles and Chinese-owned shops in the center of the ancient capital of Lhasa. It said other reports put the death toll higher, but gave no figures.

The U.S. State Department urged Chinese leaders to engage in dialogue with the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled Buddhist leader. The European Union also called on China to show restraint.

The protests that began on Monday's anniversary of a 1959 uprising against Chinese rule were initially led by hundreds of Buddhist monks -- but then attracted large numbers of ordinary Tibetans. They were also spreading to Tibetan areas outside Lhasa, a city of about 250,000 permanent residents, not including large numbers of soldiers and members of the paramilitary People's Armed Police.

Witnesses reported hearing gunfire and seeing vehicles in flames in the city's main Barkor shopping district in the center of Lhasa. Crowds hurled rocks at security forces and at restaurant and hotel windows."

*source*

------------

:'(

Please join me in boycotting the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

Lhasa, Tibet

Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung Om Mani Padme Hung...

[Hermit]

House passes Dem-backed surveillance bill

President Bush vows to veto legislation should it reach his desk

WASHINGTON - The House on Friday narrowly approved a Democratic bill that would set rules for the government's eavesdropping on phone calls and e-mails inside the United States. The bill, approved as lawmakers departed for a two-week break, faces a veto threat from President Bush. The margin of House approval was 213 to 197, largely along party lines.

The president's main objection is that the bill does not protect from lawsuits the telecommunications companies that allowed the government to eavesdrop on their customers without a court's permission after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

*source*

--------

House Dems stand firm and pass domestic spying bill that does NOT give telecoms immunity.

Bush vows to veto the bill even though he claims passage of a bill is necessary for the security of Americans. By vetoing the bill, he'll be showing that he holds immunity (from criminal prosecution) for the telecoms (not just retroactive immunity, but into the future as well) as a higher priority than security of Americans.

Bush also claims the program is legal and telecoms have not violated any laws.

So.. uhh.. why do the telecoms need immunity then , George?

I'll tell you why the "telecoms" need immunity as far as George is concerned.. because when the telecoms get sued and its exposed that they did engage in illegal activity (which they did by spying on Americans without first obtaining warrants), it will also expose GWB (and members of his admin) to being sued, and/or criminally prosecuted, for engaging in illegal wiretapping. Thats why.

GWB is covering his own ass.

And is willing to veto a security bill in order to cover his own ass.

All the while accusing the dems of engaging in "political theatre".

[wanna be drummer]

China has "relocated" 400,000 citizens in preparation of the Olympics.

nice guys those Maoists

[Stargazer]

the fact that china got the olympics in the first place is horrendus.

the government is as evil as they come in my book.

[wanna be drummer]

the fact that china got the olympics in the first place is horrendus.

the government is as evil as they come in my book.

Where have you been dude? I haven't seen you in...well a damn long time

[Stargazer]

the army.....

came back for a 9 day vacation now.

Then I'll be back again.

theres been some problems with the internett at the barracks,

so I haven't been able to post.

but I'll try to make it up now.

But the political threads are few and far between, and not that good

like on the old board.

[wanna be drummer]

the army.....

came back for a 9 day vacation now.

Then I'll be back again.

theres been some problems with the internett at the barracks,

so I haven't been able to post.

but I'll try to make it up now.

But the political threads are few and far between, and not that good

like on the old board.

Yeah I hear ya.

Didn't know you were in the army...you a grunt or intelligence or what?

[Hermit]

*crossover post from other thread*

Hermit, you are a very intelligent dude. I respect your view but do not agree. but at least you have the maturity to talk about this unlike the little drummer boy. I cant deny I will never look at them the same after 9/11. How did the world view Japan in the days after Pearl Harbour? Simiiar Id say. But 9/11 makes Pearl Harbor look like a "Teddy Bear picnic" in the words of memeber here that I havent seen in a long time. The Musliims hate us. Drunk is correct on that one. They are our enemy. Make no mistake about it.

I understand your anger about 9/11, and I understand that radical extremist Muslims.. terrorists.. jihadists.. are a threat to America. I'm not naive or in denial about the threat posed by jihadists, nor am I naive about or in denial about the fact that in many ways Islam is a grossly oppressive religion and that there are fundamentalist Islamic religious tenets that advocate the eradication of all non-Muslims. I get that.

I also know that not ALL Muslims are extremists or militant, and that not ALL Muslims advocate, or harbor secret desires and aspirations for, the eradication of all non-Muslims. I do not judge and condemn all Muslims any more than I'd judge and condemn all Christians for the views of fanatic, extremist fundamentalist Christians who actually look forward with great glee to "the Apocalypse" or "End Times".. you know, the outright destruction and elimination of all non-True Believers,.. according to their faith.

Extremists/fanatics of any ideology.. be it religious, social, political.. whatever.. are dangerous. There is absolutely no question that radical, extremist Muslims are the greatest national security threat out there right now, and we would be greatly remiss to not acknowledge that fact and respond accordingly.

But acknowledging the threat and responding accordingly does not mean becoming racists and bigots, and it does not mean doing to Muslims in America what America did to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor.. lock them up in internment camps. Nor should we advocate the wholesale bombing and destruction of an entire population of people in a fear-based desperate attempt to eradicate extremists of any ideology. Cities and people can be bombed into oblivion; ideologies cannot.

In fighting the jihadists we cannot become what they are: terrorists. In fighting to preserve our freedoms and promote our values and principles, we should not bastardize those very freedoms or abandon/violate those very principles and values. We can most effectively promote our values and principles by role modeling those values and principles.

Isn't it rather elementary that the best way to promote democracy is by role modeling democracy at its best? Isn't it elementary that if we abandon our democratic principles when fighting terrorism we necessarily undermine our cause of promoting democracy? How can we possibly convince non-democratic countries that democracy is the way to go, when right in their faces we don't show the faith and conviction to stand by our democratic principles? How can we promote democracy while at the very same time our government is spying on its own citizens, is holding people in prisons indefinitely with no due process, is unilaterally invading and occupying nations that posed no threat to us, and is advocating torture and extraordinary rendition?

How does any of that help promote democracy? How does any of that keep us safer from terrorism? Answer: it doesn't. What it does do is fuel the flames of anti-American sentiment and further fuels the (already hotly burning) flames of jihadist hatred for America.

It is perfectly ok to be angry about 9/11. That anger is righteous anger. But we cannot be blinded by that anger nor by the hatred that follows on the heels of that anger. If we let ourselves be blinded by anger and hatred, we do so at our own peril.

Anger obscures wisdom. Hate breeds more hate.

Wisdom is what is called for.

Sound judgment is what is called for.

Even temperament and good decision making is what is called for.

The courage to stand by our values and principles..

..even in the face of grave danger.. is what is called for.

Imho.

[Hermit]

Your arguments are certainly not without merit. But it is not the christian or catholic dream to have all that do not believe "burn in hell" or whatever you are referring to. But I have considered your argument long before I ever entered this board about educating and coming to some kind of educational answer to the hatred and the problems. It may be the correct course and the only logical course in the long term. But you and I will not live to see that day. And it will unfortunatley come to more bloodshed and violence before cooler heads prevail. The old saying that you must fight fire with fire is true in the short term. They cannot be persuaded or reasoned with. They will not listen no matter how diplomatic you attempt to be. that is why Drunk is right in a way. They must be beaten down before they can listen. Did Nazi Germany as smart as they were listen to reason? No. They chose to die in a bunker of suicide. These bastards make Hitler look like a fucking choir boy. Our Democratic Party was on the brink of elimination and in my opinion we were very close to eliminating party all together in this country. That would have probably been the best thing that ever could have happened. But the partisanship has returned in all its nasty ways. You and I are no less guilty than our oponents on the right side who are just as american as you and I. There are no magical answers. Sad to say.

The point is that the "they" that you are referring to are radical militant Islamic jihadists, and yet you hold bigoted attitudes toward ALL Muslims on account of the radical militant Islamic jihadists who make up but a small percentage of all Muslims.

Can you not see how you are generalizing to an entire population of people

your hatred toward an extremist fanatic fringe element of that population?

I think you do not see this. Or you do see it and yet you

choose to hold those bigoted beliefs anyway. Sad to say.

[Hermit]

*crossover post from POTUS thread*

Hermit, I feel wonderful. I don't have hate, however I have opinions. Opinions based off life experience. I experienced a whole lot. No words for it, nor will I discuss it in detail because it's not worth my time, for it won't be understood, unless of course those that I try to explain it to actually walk in my boots and see for themselves.

I appreciate the thanks and praise which you appear to have based off of what you have written.

You are applying some basic psychology to my situation as well as others' situations, and as correct at it may sound to you, it is incorrect.

I am curious to know what you imagine me to be, of course based off what you know of me on an internet message board. I would like you to provide some sort of analysis of me, and then I can correct you through revealing the truth about me, whether you believe my words or not.

I'm not analyzing you, bud. I'm making simple observations based on the content of your postings at this board.. you know, the opinions you so self-assuredly express.. many of which are patently absurd. Your opinion that GWB is "a genius" as one quick and obvious example.

You can say all you want that you don't have hate, but that merely indicates that you are not very self-aware; you are in denial. Your postings about Muslims clearly reveal your hatred for Muslims... a generalized hatred for all Muslims, even those who aren't hostile toward America. Take responsibility for your hatred, bro. You gotta own it before you can release it.

Nobody can walk in your boots but you, but that doesn't mean intelligent, open-minded people can't understand. You don't wanna talk about it, thats perfectly fine, I respect that boundary; but at least take personal responsibility for not wanting to talk about it, rather than putting forth some responsibility-avoiding claim that no one who hasn't walked in your boots can understand.

You say you feel wonderful and I hope that is indeed the case. But as a combat vet, I imagine your transition back into civilian life has its share of challenges, as would returning to so-called "normal" life after any prolonged traumatic experience. I read the reports regarding the high rate of mental health problems among vets. All vets returning from war have my sympathy, empathy and moral support. You said you weren't injured in your tour in Iraq, so with so many soldiers facing multiple deployments I figure there's a reason you're not being redeployed to Iraq. Whatever those reasons may be, I hope you're doing ok in your transition back to into life outside the combat zone, friend. Truly.

And make no mistake about it, brother, as much as I disagree with you politically, I do respect you for your willingness to risk life and limb for the cause you believed so deeply in, and I am deeply grateful to you for your service to America. And I am so very, very glad that you made it home alive and well! I worried about you, man.

I know youve been back for awhile already, but I wanna say it again..

Welcome home!

[Hermit]

Iraq war's cost: Loss of U.S. power, prestige and influence

McClatchy Newspapers / March 15, 2008

It was a decision that only President Bush had the power to make: At about 9 a.m. on March 19, 2003, he gave the "execute order" to begin Operation Iraqi Freedom, the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. Now, five years later, the consequences of that act will soon be beyond Bush's grasp.

Now, five years later, the consequences of that act will soon be beyond Bush's grasp. In 10 months, they'll land on the desk of his successor.

Thanks in part to the Iraq war, the next U.S. president — Republican or Democrat, black or white, man or woman — will take office with America's power, prestige and popularity in decline, according to bipartisan reports, polls and foreign observers.

"The winner of the 2008 elections will command U.S. forces still at war in Iraq, Afghanistan and against elusive terrorists with a deadly reach. The U.S. economy will remain burdened. ... America's moral leadership and decision-making competence will continue to be questioned," begins a study of foreign-policy choices for the next president, which a Georgetown University task force released last month.

"Restored respect will come only with fresh demonstrations of competence," the study said.

The numbers don't inspire confidence: Oil prices are at an all-time high, the dollar at new lows against the euro. Surveys find the United States' popularity and respect slipping in every part of the globe except Africa. A poll of 3,400 active and retired U.S. military officers by Foreign Policy magazine found that 88 percent agreed with the statement that "The war in Iraq has stretched the U.S. military dangerously thin."

*full article*

[DRUNK]

You said you weren't injured in your tour in Iraq, so with so many soldiers facing multiple deployments I figure there's a reason you're not being redeployed to Iraq. Whatever those reasons may be, I hope you're doing ok in your transition back to into life outside the combat zone, friend.

This is the only part of your post I found interesting.

The reason I am not going back to Iraq is because my contract is near it's end, and I am at a place that is not going anywhere right now.

However if I had to go back, I would in a heartbeat. I wouldn't show people, but inside I would be like a kid on Christmas morning. I have to live with that for the rest of my life.

Be careful about waking the warrior spirit............

But that's a whole other subject that I won't go into because only certain ones of those that have been there can understand.

[Hermit]

However if I had to go back, I would in a heartbeat. I wouldn't show people, but inside I would be like a kid on Christmas morning. I have to live with that for the rest of my life.

Be careful about waking the warrior spirit............

yyyeah,.. right.

ok, warrior. .. whatever you say.

[Stargazer]

Yeah I hear ya.

Didn't know you were in the army...you a grunt or intelligence or what?

done with the recrut period a month ago and got my black berret.

now I'm staff, in charge of the command place and critical equipment.

(guns, optics and alike)

on leave now untill the 24th.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panserbataljonen

I'm in kavalerieksvadronen.

doing all right, it's a bitch sometimes, but mostly fun.

[L 7]

Hey Stargazer-man, you guys kicked the crap out of the Russkies in WWII.

Keep up the tradition.

[Stargazer]

uh?

you mean the men serving on the eastern front for the nazies?

on a very good tradition to follow i my book.

but if the russinas get frisky and move west of the border, well'l keep them

bizzy untill NATO comes and get's them out.

[wanna be drummer]

NATO's worthless

[Hermit]

NATO's worthless

Tell that to the people of Kosovo.

[Del Zeppnile]

Obama is a good man.

Here is a clip of Obama's favorite religious leader.

[wanna be drummer]

Tell that to the people of Kosovo.

And how many times has it sat on its ass and done nothing? NATO's been to the Balkans and the rest of Eastern Europe a few times, but really now, how much has it really gotten done in recent years?

[Del Zeppnile]

Tell that to the people of Kosovo.

Tell that to the Serbian/European/Christians

We were on the wrong side in that fight. We should have been backing the Serbs.

[Mangani]

NATO's worthless

No, that's the UN.

NATO's been to the Balkans and the rest of Eastern Europe a few times, but really now, how much has it really gotten done in recent years?

Which part of NORTH ATLANTIC Treaty Organisation don't you understand? That's NATO's area of concern.

You want Nato to mess about in Africa? The Middle East? Asia?

Nah, that's the UN's problem. Not NATO's.

NATO kept the Soviet bear at bay for 50 years mate and it doesn't really have much to occupy itself now that the Cold War is long over. There's really not much call for NATO to get involved in anything. It has done it's job well.