Texas Poligamy Bust

[ally]

I don't paint all people in one group with the same brush. Only the ignorant do that. Not all Christians act one way, not all Jews act one way, not all Muslims act one way, the list goes on.

What I do know is that there are a lot of bigots in this world, who want to push their hate and intolerance on other people. I live and work amongst many of them and they infuriate me. I don't have time for their ignorance.

Bigots infuriate me as well. I can see this is a two way convo so I'll be brief. It's not ok to discriminate agaist anyone . I don't care what someones religion is , it's not OK

[Suz]

Thank you for stating the obvious with the first sentence.

I have known a lot of Muslims. They come here to make money, but have no loyalty to the country. They are very good at maintaining their way at home, here.

The ones in your community are fooling you. Continue to let them into your community. Next thing you know the Mosque's loudspeaking are giving loud Islamic prayer messages, and you feel scared and alienated in your own community.

One last thing: that music doesn't scare me a bit. I love the call to prayer and have gone to several middle eastern music concerts, as well. Why don't you ask the LZ guys what they think of that sound. Sorry you feel scared and alienated. I don't. Peace out.

[Electrophile]

Thank you for stating the obvious with the first sentence.

I have known a lot of Muslims. They come here to make money, but have no loyalty to the country. They are very good at maintaining their way at home, here.

The ones in your community are fooling you. Continue to let them into your community. Next thing you know the Mosque's loudspeaking are giving loud Islamic prayer messages, and you feel scared and alienated in your own community.

I don't feel scared or alienated when people of a different culture or religion than myself observe that culture or religion. See, that's because I'm not a xenophobe.

Shit, you people breed like roaches. This site needs a stronger can of Raid.

[DRUNK]

You are both idiots.

[Electrophile]

Ooooh, so harsh dude. SO HARSH.

[eternal light]

Yeah, I remember that. The guy I saw was just on the news recently, and was quite old. I also saw a woman from that group on Oprah. She wrote a book about how she escaped with her children. That would be interesting to read.

Carolyn Jessop wrote a memoir, Escape, about her life within the FLDS sect.

Escape, a memoir published last fall, offers a more detailed portrait of life with the FLDS. In the book, Carolyn Jessop, a sixth-generation polygamist describes her life as the fourth wife of Merril Jessop, who ran the recently raided Texas compound. Carolyn left Merril in 2003, before he moved to Texas, but her memoir sheds light on the man and on the beliefs and practices common within the insular community. Below, Slate flags Carolyn's most intriguing, strange, and heartbreaking allegations.

FLDS Beliefs

Page 17: The FLDS split from the Mormon Church more than 100 years ago, after the latter outlawed polygamy. Members, like 19th-century Mormons, believe that "[a] man must have multiple wives if he expects to do well in heaven, where he can eventually become a god and wind up with his own planet." Not every man marries multiple wives; being encouraged to take more than three signifies that you're considered important by the leaders of the community.

Page 25: In a favorite children's game, called Apocalypse, kids act out the FLDS vision of the end of the world. According to FLDS lore, Native Americans who were mistreated and killed in pioneer days will be resurrected in the end times, when God will allow them to wreak vengeance on those who wronged them (the presumably also-resurrected settlers). In return for this indulgence, "resurrected Indians" will also be "required to take on the job of protecting God's chosen people"—FLDS members—by killing FLDS enemies with invisible tomahawks that can sever a person's heart in half. Very cowboys and Indians!

Page 37: Carolyn, who grew up in the FLDS communities of Colorado City, Ariz., and Hildale, Utah, was educated in a "public school," but the teachers and students, like the rest of the area community, were almost exclusively FLDS members. They were taught that dinosaurs never existed and man never landed on the moon.

Page 157: Polygamy isn't the only way FLDS doctrine differs from that of the Mormon Church: "Many of us in the fundamentalist faith drank coffee, tea, beer, and wine, all of which is strictly forbidden in mainstream Mormonism."

Prophet Motives

Pages 72-73: The community's rules changed as different leaders—called prophets—established different priorities. When Carolyn was 18, the prophet was a man called Uncle Roy, who gave her permission to attend college, an honor granted to very few girls in the community. But there was one major caveat: In order to do so, Carolyn had to marry Merril Jessop, a 50-year-old man with a reputation for cruelty who already had three wives.

Page 313: When Uncle Roy died in 1986, a man called Uncle Rulon took over. But Rulon was elderly and frail, and his favored son, Warren Jeffs, held the reins for many years. Carolyn says that marrying off underage girls was relatively rare before Rulon: "When Uncle Rulon first came to power, girls didn't marry until they were over twenty. After his first stroke, the age dropped into the late teens. The sicker he got, the younger the brides in the community became."

Page 234: As the FLDS leadership became increasingly radicalized, Uncle Rulon began to discuss blood atonement, a draconian punishment for anyone who committed

"mmoral acts for which there could be no forgiveness … such as fornication and adultery." Blood atonement, Carolyn explains, is "murder": The sinner submits to being killed as punishment for his or her crimes. The practice is rejected by the mainstream Mormon Church. Carolyn became terrified that the FLDS might adopt it.

Jessop's Marriage

As was the case with many FLDS unions, Carolyn and Merril's marriage was "spiritual," not official, to help avoid charges of polygamy. (Having technically single mothers in the community also helped bring in government benefits.)

Page 80: Carolyn was fearful of consummating her marriage: "Merril spread my legs apart but could not get an erection. I felt angry, humiliated, and embarrassed. Should I fight him? I began to try to free myself, and after a few minutes he released his hold on me." Though the couple eventually had sex, in their 17-year marriage, Carolyn never saw Merril fully nude.

Page 181: Merril became furious with Carolyn when she ordered shrimp, which he dislikes, at a restaurant: "A devout wife would never even desire to eat something her husband disliked."

Page 147: Carolyn and Merril eventually had eight children together, but that's hardly a big brood by FLDS standards: "Producing large numbers of faithful children was a way for a woman to gain favor not only with her husband but with God. It wasn't uncommon for a woman in the community to have as many as sixteen children, and most had at least twelve."

Bad Medicine

Page 189: FLDS leaders don't look kindly on modern medicine. During childbirth, "a doctor was never present, nor was pain medication ever used. Women were expected to be perfectly silent during childbirth. If a woman screamed or made loud noises she was criticized for being out of control. Sometimes she'd be reprimanded by her husband during her delivery."

Page 224: One woman Carolyn knows gave birth at home and "was given an episiotomy with sewing scissors and then stitched up with dental floss."

Page 231: Uncle Rulon "began preaching that anyone who needed medical help to heal was a person of little faith. A person in harmony with God could heal him- or herself with fasting and prayer." When Carolyn's sister-wife Ruth was diagnosed with skin cancer on her nose, she tried to heal herself with chemicals from a health-food store. The chemicals burned off her nose.

Page 275: Merril blamed Carolyn when their seventh child became gravely ill: "You can take him to every damn doctor you can find, but no one will be able to heal him. God is going to destroy his life because of the sins of his mother."

Warren Jeffs

Jeffs, who is currently in prison for arranging the marriage of an underage girl, exercised extraordinary control over the community even while Uncle Rulon was still the nominal prophet, and eventually became the prophet himself, when Rulon died in 2003.

Page 195: Some of Carolyn's stepdaughters were married to Jeffs, and she feared his temper. She writes: "One day he brought one of his wives into the [school] auditorium, which was packed with boys. Annette had a long braid that fell past her knees. Warren grabbed the braid and twisted and twisted it until she was on her knees and he was ripping hair from her head. He told the boys that this was how obedient their wives had to be to them."

Pages 216, 223, 231, and 234: As Rulon's deputy, Jeffs banned the color red; movies, television, and the Internet ("except for business purposes"); clothing with "large prints" or plaid; immunizations; and sex not for procreation.

Page 197: The Jeffs family had "a rigid rule … against becoming obese."

Page 307: The FLDS faithful didn't see anything wrong with the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. One of Carolyn's sister-wives "couldn't stop talking about how she and all the righteous people she knew saw the hand of God in the attacks. … Warren Jeffs had been preaching that the entire earth would soon be at war and all the worthy among the chosen would be lifted from the earth and protected, while God destroyed the wicked."

Pages 324-325: Jeffs began to kick young boys out of the community—"more than a hundred teenage boys" within a month's span, at one point—for crimes like "listening to CDs, watching movies, or kissing girls."

Time To Escape

Page 333: Carolyn decided to flee in 2003, soon after Jeffs finally became prophet. She took her eight children, including her profoundly disabled son, to Salt Lake City. As she and her family struggled to adjust to the outside world, Carolyn developed post-traumatic stress disorder. But as she worked to make ends meet, her polygamy background came in handy: An HBO costume director came to town, and Jessop says she made some money sewing costumes for Big Love, HBO's series about a suburban polygamous family connected to an FLDS-like cult.

Page 370: The transition to life outside the FLDS was toughest on Betty, Jessop's oldest daughter. After a visit with her father in FLDS-controlled Colorado City, Betty snapped. " 'You're an apostate, owned by the devil!' Betty said. 'He wants your soul and he wants ours.' " Two days after her 18th birthday, Betty returned to the FLDS fold.

Page 404: Jessop heard "rumors that children were being taken from their mothers and sent to the FLDS compound in Texas. … We heard they were being sent away to be raised the way Warren wanted them to be raised."

Page 409: Jeffs himself went underground to hide from the authorities after being accused of arranging the marriage of an underage girl to her cousin. Eventually, he was arrested—while in a car that was red, the color he forbade his followers to wear—and convicted. Still, "Warren's arrest was not the end of his power," Carolyn says. "They were not going to abandon their loyalty to him overnight because he was in the hands of the wicked." (Jeffs resigned as president of the FLDS in late 2007.)

My Life in a Polygamist Compound-Carolyn Jessop's FLDS memoir, condensed. By Torie Bosch

[DRUNK]

Ooooh, so harsh dude. SO HARSH.

Not harsh, just the truth truth.

Being naive can be a nice thing, but being naive about this shit isn't nice at all.

I will rephrase that: you guys are naive, and ignorant, same thing really. You might be idiots too though.

It's too bad.

Maybe you have sadomasochistic tendencies which would explain why you are defending and making excuses for a religion that even in this country, has maintained s standard which enforces, at least, the unfair domination and life restriction of women.

Maybe you should marry some Muslim men and go back to their countries. Try escaping back to here and let me know how it all went......

[Electrophile]

There are sects of Christianity in this country that have maintained a standard which enforces, at least, the unfair domination and life restriction of women. That's what this thread was initially started to discuss.

Should we blast Christianity and all people that practice it based solely on those people? I think the Christians here on this board would have a problem with that, seeing as how if they don't practice their faith in that manner, they shouldn't be lumped in with those who do.

[Lake of Shadows]

According to a news thing I saw earlier today, they're going to do DNA testing of all the kids and adults to find out just who is the offspring of whom.

Apparently there is also a question being floated about that the phone call from the 15 or 16 year old girl that got this all started was a hoax. It doesn't really matter at this point because the investigation results made it important to do what they've since then done... the protective custody, dna testing, etc.

[DRUNK]

There are sects of Christianity in this country that have maintained a standard which enforces, at least, the unfair domination and life restriction of women. That's what this thread was initially started to discuss.

Should we blast Christianity and all people that practice it based solely on those people? I think the Christians here on this board would have a problem with that, seeing as how if they don't practice their faith in that manner, they shouldn't be lumped in with those who do.

Well, no we shouldn't blast all Christians because most of them aren't like this. However, most Muslims are.

[Electrophile]

I used the example I did for a reason. It doesn't matter what portion of the society behaves in that manner. 90%, 10%, 44.65%.....there will still be people you include in that hate that don't belong there.

If it's not okay to blast all Christians for what a portion of them do, why is it okay to blast all Muslims for what a portion of them do? There are many peaceful people in this world who practice the Islamic faith who suffer every day because of the people who don't.

I don't fear people who have done nothing to me, and I don't go out of my way to hate them either. People who practice their faith in peace are not my enemy.

[Ringwraith]

I used the example I did for a reason. It doesn't matter what portion of the society behaves in that manner. 90%, 10%, 44.65%.....there will still be people you include in that hate that don't belong there.

If it's not okay to blast all Christians for what a portion of them do, why is it okay to blast all Muslims for what a portion of them do? There are many peaceful people in this world who practice the Islamic faith who suffer every day because of the people who don't.

I don't fear people who have done nothing to me, and I don't go out of my way to hate them either. People who practice their faith in peace are not my enemy.

I blame the media for that. They've completely disintigrated the line separating moderacy from fundamentalism.

[Ringwraith]

hard to believe this happened in america. in 2008.

[Dzldoc]

I could be misinterpreting DRUNK, but it seems to me he feels strongly that OUR country may turn into a different place, one not as it was founded, if people don't become more aware of what is going on around them. I haven't researched any of this and won't give any facts, but i do see plenty of examples of this in today's society. I have seen first hand where i work, how many Middle Eastern people coming here from their country for medical care, treat Americans, and it can be scary. Many have shown hostility in an environment that should be giving respect and appreciation. I'm not judging a whole population on what i have seen, but i have heard similar stories from friends and family who work in a similar environment and have had to deal with these people. Good or bad, if they are infiltrating our country, we better keep our eyes open. These people are intelligent. They seem "quiet" but what better way to insinuate themselves into our society.

If we choose to ignore what is happening here as well as in other countries, we may one day wake up to find our home is not what it used to be. Then again, maybe i'm just being paranoid.

In Don Henley's words: you call some place paradise, kiss it goodbye... I consider the United States of America paradise, despite all it's flaws.

Good Post

Has anyone noticed that the muslim owned covienence stores don't sell alcahol or lotto tickets? I would call this pushing one's religion on the public.

[Electrophile]

If they own the store, they can sell or not sell whatever they want. You just go find another store. How hard is that? BTW, I've never been in a convenience store that DIDN'T sell liquor or lottery tickets. I went to Catholic school and non-Catholics were able to attend the school, but we still had Mass every week......is that "pushing our religion on the public"?

Christ, you all will find anything to complain about.

[The Rover]

You bet they should. If this all pans out to be true then I have only one solution for these arrogant, depraved men that took part in this. Hang em'.... they deserve capital punishment.

Oh yeah baby... Let's take IT to the NEXT Level Baby.......

All of the depraved woman that have murdered their their children in the womb....

Your laws... their laws..... My laws.... God's laws.....

They deserve capital punishment.

Oh yeah... let's do take justice to it's next level......

Once you start the guillotine dropping.... No telling where it will stop . . .

[DRUNK]

If it's not okay to blast all Christians for what a portion of them do, why is it okay to blast all Muslims for what a portion of them do? There are many peaceful people in this world who practice the Islamic faith who suffer every day because of the people who don't.

I don't fear people who have done nothing to me, and I don't go out of my way to hate them either. People who practice their faith in peace are not my enemy.

When the portion is the majority, like in the case of Islam, then very little excuses can be made. The only excuses you can make are those for people that you personally know. What you are doing is making excuses for a whole population of people, based off of the people you personally know or observe, and that is wrong.

The Muslims "suffering everyday" around the world are suffering because of other Muslims, not Christians or anyone else.

You should fear Muslims. Ok, they haven't done anything to you yet..........So the way to be in the world is to let something happen to you before you form an opinion? That's pretty stupid.

You are living like some wannabe hippie, with a super open mind, in a world that has different people at different evolutions, living with different standards. You cannot accurately view the rest of the world through your western American eyes.

[ally]

Oh yeah baby... Let's take IT to the NEXT Level Baby.......

All of the depraved woman that have murdered their their children in the womb....

Your laws... their laws..... My laws.... God's laws.....

They deserve capital punishment.

Oh yeah... let's do take justice to it's next level......

Once you start the guillotine dropping.... No telling where it will stop . . .

Look at the age of these girls !

[Electrophile]

When the portion is the majority, like in the case of Islam, then very little excuses can be made. The only excuses you can make are those for people that you personally know. What you are doing is making excuses for a whole population of people, based off of the people you personally know or observe, and that is wrong.

The Muslims "suffering everyday" around the world are suffering because of other Muslims, not Christians or anyone else.

You should fear Muslims. Ok, they haven't done anything to you yet..........So the way to be in the world is to let something happen to you before you form an opinion? That's pretty stupid.

You are living like some wannabe hippie, with a super open mind, in a world that has different people at different evolutions, living with different standards. You cannot accurately view the rest of the world through your western American eyes.

You don't know me, so refrain from armchair psychoanalysis, Dr. Freud.

bigotry --

–noun, plural -ries.

1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.

2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.

—Synonyms 1. narrow-mindedness, bias, discrimination.

I'd rather be considered by some to be a "hippie" than be considered by most to be a bigot. I wasn't raised to hate or to fear people who have done me no harm. Muslims haven't harmed me, radical fundamentalists have harmed people. That's not all Muslims everywhere. Take your bigoted rantings and fuck off.

[Electrophile]

BTW, to anyone wondering why the quality of the board had decreased, now you know why.

[DRUNK]

BTW, to anyone wondering why the quality of the board had decreased, now you know why.

0

I'm not a bigot or a racist, or whatever you have to say. If you want to go the low blow route because you can't do anything else, then that's ok. It's a common fall back defense measure.

I have some close Muslim friends. I don't prejudge anyone. I'm extremely open minded, but I can't throw away experience or knowledge just for the benefit of the doubt.

[Electrophile]

My father's parents came here from Denmark in the early 40s to escape the Nazi occupation. Do you think they lived the rest of their life in fear of German people? Their experience and knowledge of German people at the time wasn't very good, wouldn't you say? After the war when the true depth of the Nazi depravity was made public, do you think they continued to hate Germans?

The answer is no.

When I was in college and studying comparative theology, we had a Holocaust survivor come in and talk to the class about many things, one of them being the art of separating the part from the whole. He said it's easy to condemn everyone out of anger, and that his experience was that all Germans were like this and that all they did was torture and kill. And then he learned that it wasn't the case. He said that being able to NOT hate and NOT fear is what allowed him to live his life.

You want to live in fear, go for it.

[DRUNK]

My father's parents came here from Denmark in the early 40s to escape the Nazi occupation. Do you think they lived the rest of their life in fear of German people? Their experience and knowledge of German people at the time wasn't very good, wouldn't you say? After the war when the true depth of the Nazi depravity was made public, do you think they continued to hate Germans?

The answer is no.

When I was in college and studying comparative theology, we had a Holocaust survivor come in and talk to the class about many things, one of them being the art of separating the part from the whole. He said it's easy to condemn everyone out of anger, and that his experience was that all Germans were like this and that all they did was torture and kill. And then he learned that it wasn't the case. He said that being able to NOT hate and NOT fear is what allowed him to live his life.

You want to live in fear, go for it.

You're making invalid comparisons between Germans and Muslims. They just can't be compared, period. Another example of your naivety.

[Nathan]

0

I'm not a bigot or a racist, or whatever you have to say.

No. You're not. Of course not. You just have this horribly bigotted tendency to lump in the many with the few.

Yup... you're definitely open-minded.

ETA:

You know what, DRUNK? Go join the KKK. You'd do well there.

And that's the last thing I have to say to your biggotted ass so don't expect anything else from me.

[ally]

No. You're not. Of course not. You just have this horribly bigotted tendency to lump in the many with the few.

Yup... you're definitely open-minded.

ETA:

You know what, DRUNK? Go join the KKK. You'd do well there.

And that's the last thing I have to say to your biggotted ass so don't expect anything else from me.

That is an idiotic statement. He's entitled to have an opinion as are you, but that is not on at all