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ALilDetective

Stairway to Hell?

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I still find your views on the backmasking entirely unconvincing, TC. But what I am wondering about now is this:

And then we come to Eddie Kramer. Eddie has recently claimed that no message exists on "Stairway" because back-masking is an impossibility. Yet in a live interview, Jimmy Page claims that he himself instructed Eddie Kramer how to accomplish that very thing. In fact, Jimmy explains in the interview exactly how reversing tape was accomplished at his direction !

Which interview would that be? I can't remember it. Are you sure that you're not confusing this with Jimmy's numerous explanations about how he had to just order Glyn Johns about in 1968 in order to get the backwards echo effect done on You Shook Me? That does indeed involve the turning over of tape, but only in order to capture the effect of an echo preceding the signal, which Jimmy has used a lot, as you no doubt know, for instance as late as the Coverdale/Page album.

Of course, that's far from what is implied in the backmasking hypothesis.

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Which interview would that be? I can't remember it. Are you sure that you're not confusing this with Jimmy's numerous explanations about how he had to just order Glyn Johns about in 1968 in order to get the backwards echo effect done on You Shook Me?

Very possible that I have Kramer and Johns confused. We do agree though that Jimmy has mentioned his role in this in several articles and interviews. I think he even mentions it on the interview disc that came with the special edition BBC release.

Of course, that's far from what is implied in the backmasking hypothesis.

I disagree. Back-masking a spoken voice to sound like something coherant would certainly be a much harder chore, but theoretically not impossible.

I still find your views on the backmasking entirely unconvincing, TC.

Join the crowd. As I've mentioned many times, I don't have any definitive proof to offer you. The ultimate clue to solving this question lies right here.....

Oh here's to my sweet Satan.

The one whose little path would make me sad, whose power is Satan.

He will give those with him 666.

There was a little tool shed where he made us suffer, sad Satan.

If this was found in a Crowley transcript, or some written artifact in Page's personal collection (possibly even related to Bolskine House), would that convince you ? If not, then you must prescribe to the theory that some religious fundamentalist concocted this verse and the whole conspiracy as we know it for the sole purpose of making the claim that Jimmy Page was a satanist ?.....Because I find that to be more shaky of a proposition than believing it actually exists. Fundies are good enough to exploit it, but they weren't good enough to create it. Mr. Page did that for them.

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Yes TC, you have Kramer and Johns mixed up. What Page instructed him to do was to flip the tape over so the echo would come before the recorded sound instead of after. This is miles away from actually getting a voice recorded backward to speak forward while being played backward.

That's the real crux of my disbelief. The alleged voice is going backward, yet the words are speaking forward? That would not be possible with a trick of the tape. The speaker would literally have to speak the words backward when recording, then they would sound forward when played backward. The problem with this is that it would be heard clearly spoken backward when the song is played forward. See what I mean?

The other problem is volume levels. When played backward, the anomaly stands out louder than the music. If it were something backwards, it would be equally obvious when played forward. You can't change the volume of vinyl grooves when switching directions. What's there is there, and when you play it forward, there's nothing but the song. So what we have could only be coincidence, imagination, or *oooh* magic. ;)

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"Created by the media"? So Jimmy Page was ordained a member of The Order of Thelemic Knights to sell magazines? That's ludicrous! They wouldn't let him in if he was a poser. It is a priestly class.

I'm no fool and I don't think Stairway is "Satanist propaganda". I also don't believe in the backmasking. I'm one of the naysayers! But anyone who would propose that Jimmy's interest in the occult and Thelema as a working methodology for his life was just doing it for publicity doesn't have their facts together. Certainly he capitalised on it. No question. But his interests were genuine, and extended far beyond his aspirations for Led Zeppelin.

And let's please stop associating Thelema with Satanism. It's like comparing communion to ritual cannibalism.

*edit* And I'm NOT being argumentative or an asshole. I'm just presenting a different view based on facts. So don't act like I'm attacking you directly. Pretty please.

I'm not saying that Jimmy practiced Thelema to get media attention, rather than the media blew his association with the occult out of proportion to sell magazines. But that certainly didn't hurt their image with that album being one of the highest-selling ever.

Edited by MisterMcLov1n

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I'm not saying that Jimmy practiced Thelema to get media attention, rather than the media blew his association with the occult out of proportion to sell magazines. But that certainly didn't hurt their image with that album being one of the highest-selling ever. And not to be cruel; however, but if I was addicted to drugs and had the money and interest, I'd think Thelema was pretty cool too. I noticed that when Jimmy generally got clean and started a family, he seemingly put most of his interest in the supernatural aside for what is real.

I think you'll find he's still interested in the same things, only now they get less attention. For example, he was wearing an OTO (Thelema) T-shirt on his trip to Cambodia a couple of years ago with Ross Halfin. Thus, I don't think his interests have or ever had anything to do with being cool, on his part. JMO.

We could argue all day about whether the supernatural is real or not! :D

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It should also be mentioned that Page's fascination with Magick in Theory and Practice and Crowley began in his early teens. He was steeped in it long before drugs and fame entered the picture. Also, his addictions didn't take hold until around 1975, five years after he bought Boleskine.

Of course, Crowley had been en vogue for some time. He even made the cover of Sgt Pepper. Right next to Mae West and behind Aldous Huxley. Top row, second from left.

Then there's Mick Jagger's relationship with Kenneth Anger, who had a falling out wiyh Page over his Lucifer Rising soundtrack. Jagger provided an eerie soundtrack to go behind Anger's images of Crowley in his film Invocation of My Demon Brother (1969). Anger had also booked Jagger to play Lucifer in Lucifer Rising. Jagger declined for unspecified reasons, but Marianne Faithful made the shoot of the invocation ceremony. So yes, Jagger was in the Crowley circle as well, but the media never picked up on it to any great degree.

*edit to add* As far as my practicing goes, in the late 80s I stopped somewhere between blessing my dagger and actually constructing my altar. This was about 5 years before I took residence in the monastery. ;)

Edited by Evster2012

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Personally, I think they didn't backmask it at all, in anyway. They really had no reason too, and, especially at those times, who in the world is gonna take that time to listen to it backwards in the first place ???

Some of my reasons for having this opinion is because it must of been pretty hard to right an intire song that had lyrics backwards, with completely different lyrics forward, at that time.

I also think that if it was about crowely or satan in anyway, they would of just said a basic ''yes'' or ''no'' awnser. Listen to there interviews, they never seem to lie or hide anything. Also, Page was very open with his obbsession with this sort of stuff.

I also remember the quote in one of there interviews(not sure if it was page or plant who said it) "Our turntables only play in one direction—forwards". And Eddie Kramer(zep's Audio Engineer) had called the controversy "totally and utterly ridiculous. Why would they want to spend so much studio time doing something so dumb?" And Plant had also said in frustration "Stairway to Heaven' was written with every best intention, and as far as reversing tapes and putting messages on the end, that's not my idea of making music" As for what it's about, here's another Plant quote "[it] was some cynical aside about a woman getting everything she wanted all the time without giving back any thought or consideration. The first line begins with that cynical sweep of the hand ... and it softened up after that." Then again, to me, and im sure alot of you, the song is as you hear it, it is about what you make it about. If you want to hear the backwards message, and have parts of it mention satan, then you will hear it. Personally i hear it as a song of beauty and about a girl who can buy anything she wants, but she still won't be happy.

Zeppelin was always in it for the music, if the backmasked thing was part of the song, I don't think they would be ones too spend so much time to not admit it. They never played for the critics, and im sure they had enough people calling them satanists allready that this wouldn't bother them too much.

Even if they did backmask it, I don't belive it had anything to do with them worshiping satan in anyway, it was just a musical thing. Like in the line ''yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run..." 2 Paths, forwards, and backwards ?

So, if they did, too me there still good old Zeppelin. Gods among men. And they would have only done it in a very musical prespective, and if they did, well, then that just proves how artistic they are with there music, and good on them.

However, with Zeppelin always being such a big part of my life, I would like to finnally come to a full conclusion, and I hope this discussion will continue on intill it's unaminous(spelling?). But intill then, if Zeppelin, my all-time hero's, say they didn't do it, then that's good enough for me.

On a side note, anyone ever hear "Empty Spaces" by Pink Floyd?? You'll get a kick out of that being played backwards (:

Sorry if any of this has allready been said, I didn't read through all the comments.

Edited by Plant/Page

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"but I absolutely love the MUSIC and ALL of it. There is a connection that I have not found with any other music as strong as I have with Zeppelins. - and again, your thoughts are noted, but nothing like the MIGHTY ZEP:-)"

Hi Deborah J,

My thoughts exactly, and there are a few on here who feel the same as we do.

But me, well i'm in it for the Long Haul, and my only interest is in their Music, the personal life has little to interest me, but i do love the stories, so please keep em comming.

Esp yours Ev, why you havent made it Big Time is beyond me, as a Musician or as a Philosopher, you could be either, just need the Luck i suppose, stiil dont stop trying will you?

And just for the record, i believe that the struggle between Good and Evil is the struggle every one of us goes through every day of our lives, it is the things that we "Do", not some Conjured up Spirit that either Benifits or Harms mankind. I believe that Jimmy Page is a Good person at heart and would rather do you Good than Harm and anything said about his involvement with Satan, Evil or Backmasking is complete and utter Bullshit.

Regards, Danny

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On a side note, anyone ever hear "Empty Spaces" by Pink Floyd?? You'll get a kick out of that being played backwards (:

"Congratulations, you have found the secret message. Send your answers to Old Pink..." ;)

Of course that wasn't "backmasking" because it wasn't "masked" i.e. hidden. You can hear it going "shrp mrph mph shrp". That's why it was discovered, because you can hear it going by. Likewise the Beatles "Paul is dead" and "Turn me on dead man". Revolution 9 has obvious backwards sounds going on. The thing with Stairway is you can't hear any backwards sounds going by when played forward. That shoots it down for me.

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*edit to add* As far as my practicing goes, in the late 80s I stopped somewhere between blessing my dagger and actually constructing my altar. This was about 5 years before I took residence in the monastery. ;)

You did get as far as the secret handshake and the key to the executive crypt, though, right? :unsure:

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"Congratulations, you have found the secret message. Send your answers to Old Pink..." ;)

Of course that wasn't "backmasking" because it wasn't "masked" i.e. hidden. You can hear it going "shrp mrph mph shrp". That's why it was discovered, because you can hear it going by. Likewise the Beatles "Paul is dead" and "Turn me on dead man". Revolution 9 has obvious backwards sounds going on. The thing with Stairway is you can't hear any backwards sounds going by when played forward. That shoots it down for me.

My thoughts exactly, listening to the song forward, without this huge controversy I would of never even gave it a thought to play it backwards, the verse is said so clearly, I don't even understand how you can get the backwords message out of the forwards verse.

By the way, I edited my last post like, 6 times, and then realized there were allready 3 more comments, so if you care too, you might wanna read through it again (:

Edited by Plant/Page

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Esp yours Ev, why you havent made it Big Time is beyond me, as a Musician or as a Philosopher, you could be either, just need the Luck i suppose, stiil dont stop trying will you?

And just for the record, i believe that the struggle between Good and Evil is the struggle every one of us goes through every day of our lives, it is the things that we "Do", not some Conjured up Spirit that either Benifits or Harms mankind. I believe that Jimmy Page is a Good person at heart and would rather do you Good than Harm and anything said about his involvement with Satan, Evil or Backmasking is complete and utter Bullshit.

Regards, Danny

Dratted luck I suppose! :lol:

People who think Thelema is Evil, Satanic and all that don't understand the philosophy. Thelema is about Love, and finding your true will/path in harmony with the universe. People make the error because it appears Pagan, which is forbidden by Christian doctrine and automatically deemed Satanic. Based on that perspective, throwing salt over your shoulder or knocking on wood would make you a Pagan/Satanic. So you get a lot of dogma blurring the intent of the philosophy. Crowley in a sense shot himself in the foot playing up his beastly 666 persona. Invocation of Isis and Nut is not the same as worshipping the Devil. True Thelemites wish tortured souls to find their way to the light of peace. Black magicians try to get demons to do their bidding for personal gain, and such practice would quickly get you booted out of the OTO. There have been splinterings because of that in the past. Page has not been shunned. So there you go.

People need to realize that Thelema has fuck all to do with cults like Anton LaVey's Church of Satan. Totally different paths. Totally different philosophies.

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You did get as far as the secret handshake and the key to the executive crypt, though, right? :unsure:

No, but I did get a meeting schedule for the local chapter! :lol:

I never attended. ;)

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Dratted luck I suppose! :lol:

People who think Thelema is Evil, Satanic and all that don't understand the philosophy. Thelema is about Love, and finding your true will/path in harmony with the universe. People make the error because it appears Pagan, which is forbidden by Christian doctrine and automatically deemed Satanic. Based on that perspective, throwing salt over your shoulder or knocking on wood would make you a Pagan/Satanic. So you get a lot of dogma blurring the intent of the philosophy. Crowley in a sense shot himself in the foot playing up his beastly 666 persona. Invocation of Isis and Nut is not the same as worshipping the Devil. True Thelemites wish tortured souls to find their way to the light of peace. Black magicians try to get demons to do their bidding for personal gain, and such practice would quickly get you booted out of the OTO. There have been splinterings because of that in the past. Page has not been shunned. So there you go.

People need to realize that Thelema has fuck all to do with cults like Anton LaVey's Church of Satan. Totally different paths. Totally different philosophies.

Hi and Thanks again Ev,

"In the Light you will find your road" makes more sense to me now mate, do you think a Buddhist-Martial-Artist-Type like me would make a Good "Thelemite"? :lol:

Regards, Danny

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Hi and Thanks again Ev,

"In the Light you will find your road" makes more sense to me now mate, do you think a Buddhist-Martial-Artist-Type like me would make a Good "Thelemite"? :lol:

Regards, Danny

And if you feel that you can't go on. And your will's sinkin' low

Just believe and you can't go wrong.

In the light you will find the road. You will find the road

You hit the nail on the head mate!

To your question: Many adherents of Thelema, none more so than Crowley, recognize correlations between Thelemic and other systems of spiritual thought; most borrow freely from the methods and practices of other traditions, including alchemy, astrology, qabalah, tantra, tarot divination, and yoga. For example, Nu and Had are thought to correspond with the Tao and Teh of Taoism, Shakti and Shiva of the Hindu Tantras, Shunyata and Bodhicitta of Buddhism, Ain Soph and Kether in the Qabalah.

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And if you feel that you can't go on. And your will's sinkin' low

Just believe and you can't go wrong.

In the light you will find the road. You will find the road

You hit the nail on the head mate!

To your question: Many adherents of Thelema, none more so than Crowley, recognize correlations between Thelemic and other systems of spiritual thought; most borrow freely from the methods and practices of other traditions, including alchemy, astrology, qabalah, tantra, tarot divination, and yoga. For example, Nu and Had are thought to correspond with the Tao and Teh of Taoism, Shakti and Shiva of the Hindu Tantras, Shunyata and Bodhicitta of Buddhism, Ain Soph and Kether in the Qabalah.

I'll take that as a "Yes" then Ev?

To me "God" is not about being "Good", "God" is about being Worshiped as there is far too much suffering in the world for there to be an Omnipotent Diety to be worthy of being Adored and Worshiped.

I think i will just stick to "Worshiping Good" rather than "Worshiping God" i get far more satisfaction out of it and more "Good" comes out of it than spending my days kneeling and asking for "Gods" help and forgivness.

But just in case there really is a "God" "I didnt mean it and i will truly repent, honest." I hope that works. ;)

Regards, Danny

PS, Do you think "God" reads emails?

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Could someone explain why Lucifer Rising wasn't officially released? Perhaps it could be released later down the line in a type of Anthology. The bootlegs are creepy, but at the same time very expressive and cool.

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Ev....We got bogged down a bit on our last discussion of "satanism" and Crowley. My point was that Crowley being a satanist depended very much on one's Christian point of view. I think a better way to look at Crowley is that he was not a satanist, but for the most part a very strong anti-Christian. Would you agree ?

That's the real crux of my disbelief. The alleged voice is going backward, yet the words are speaking forward? That would not be possible with a trick of the tape. The speaker would literally have to speak the words backward when recording, then they would sound forward when played backward. The problem with this is that it would be heard clearly spoken backward when the song is played forward. See what I mean?

I see your point, and I think it's a damn good one. In fact, I think it's the most logical point of the argument against the message existing. However I don't think Page did it that way. He was hooked on phonetics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_reversal

I also think that if it was about crowely or satan in anyway, they would of just said a basic ''yes'' or ''no'' awnser. Listen to there interviews, they never seem to lie or hide anything. Also, Page was very open with his obbsession with this sort of stuff.

Perhaps Steve can help us out here, but except for one interview with Plant, I have never heard Jimmy Page deny that he might have done this, and that particular interview wasn't very convincing. In fact in one interview, his answer was, "I'm not talking".....and, "There is something to be said for mystery". I also disagree about Page hiding the extent that Thelema and Crowley controlled his life. It took him 30 years to admit that it did influence the music. He was as truthful about that subject as he was about his drug use. Only in the last few years has he opened up about those two subjects (and if it wasn't for boots, he'd still be telling us tales about the origin of "We're Gonna Groove").

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Ev....We got bogged down a bit on our last discussion of "satanism" and Crowley. My point was that Crowley being a satanist depended very much on one's Christian point of view. I think a better way to look at Crowley is that he was not a satanist, but for the most part a very strong anti-Christian. Would you agree ?

Very much so. Glad we didn't get mired in it this time! :lol::beer:

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I am finding this topic fascinating! I don't think that stairway has a "backwards" message. But these discussions are encouraging me to look into Thelema and the OTO to try to understand better.

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Could someone explain why Lucifer Rising wasn't officially released? Perhaps it could be released later down the line in a type of Anthology. The bootlegs are creepy, but at the same time very expressive and cool.

*off topic*

You wouldn't by chance be the poster formerly known as jpj4evajbrip would you? I'm just asking cause you seem familiar to me.

And you called me Ev. ;)

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This strand is hilarious. :hysterical:

The same thing was done to some Beatles songs. Any suspicious minded person with too much time on their hands can play anything backwards and find something to suit their own agenda. Plant always introduced this song as a song of hope. Thats all nothing else.

Excuse me while I run to the loo(or is it lew?) before I pee my pants.

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*off topic*

You wouldn't by chance be the poster formerly known as jpj4evajbrip would you? I'm just asking cause you seem familiar to me.

And you called me Ev. ;)

No. This is my only account here.

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