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TelecasterShaggy

I just finished reading Hammer Of The Gods...

83 posts in this topic

On 13/01/2017 at 10:21 PM, KellyGirl said:

Rather old thread, however I see few people  bumped it,  so I'm going to add some chatter to it.

What is this talk regarding  Jimmy releasing a book posthumously because of  the possibility of
being sued.   I often read that concern,  so I have to ask who  and why  would somebody do this.     

Yes I get it.  He is extremely wealthy and some people will go to a lot of trouble to extract
money  via dishonest ways,   but I am talking about a realistic case.  Not some weirdo  who
wants  to  "save or heal"  underage  groupies from the 1970s,   or those who believed Page was
equal to Jim Jones.   Some fool claiming to suffer mentally/physically  over who Page was banging
in his hotel room  40+ years ago,  or the fact he had curiosity with  Crowley.   There are no cases
to be won with those things.   

Seriously though.   I would assume any living or deceased person mentioned would have his
permission.  (John's wife and kids I'm sure would be fine with it)  I don't expect Page to slander
his band mates by sharing who was stepping out on their wife while on tour in the USA,    or
endless  stories of the other band members drug use.   Those are not his stories to share.  I
guess some could say the groupies could sue,  but then we can  all start laughing at how
ridiculous that sounds seeing how many of them  have told their  stories  or  wrote little
memoirs  themselves.    So I ask again who actually would have legitimate reason to sue Page.    
Maybe I'm missing something.  Other musicians,  studio engineers,  road crew etc ? 

On a side note.   I don't ever see any member ever doing a book about their time in Zeppelin.  
They have since day one exhibited a locked door on a majority of the stuff that took place on
the road.  The book would end up strictly being about music.  Which kind of defeats the whole
idea of this tell-all book.   Being private is not a bad thing. 

 

 

Well that's the point, Page knows things very few do, and some things nobody but he knows.  Would some of this be the types of things that one could sue him for?  Probably.  There are alot of leeches in the industry as it is.  I would definitely pay top dollar to hear it all from the source, noone knows it better than him.  Even all of the second hand stories would be gold.

The secrecy was driven by Grant more than anyone I suspect.  It worked at the time because all that mattered was the music, a vastly different age then today with social media and anyone and everyone being a household name.  I can't help but think that Page and others in the band look at their legacy differently as they are aging and seeing their mortality.  This naturally falls on Pages shoulders since he always held the band as an extension of himself, it was more than just a band to him, it was his purpose in life, his very existence it seems.  All that he envisioned about music with the swagger and experiences that came with this fame.  As we can see from his reissuing of the albums, painstaking work to be sure, pouring over hundreds of hours of old audio.  He cares about what is left behind after he is gone.

I have always had some opinions about Peter Grant, I would like to hear more about him in particular.  I would also like to hear about what drove the creative forces for them when they felt worn down on tour etc.  What many people often overlook was how professional they were.  Doing long sets, rising to the occasion so often when you know they had to be worn out or going through the motions.  The old saying "party hard, work hard" seems to apply to them.  Clearly they didn't have the scrutiny that a band today would have, and that allowed them to generate their own music unabashed.

Finally, Page connects with the fans in a subtle but profound manner.  He views them as the defenders of their legacy which can be handed down to others.  Even speaking to some he respects before releasing songs for the reissue to confirm they are unreleased versions as that was what he wanted to provide to the hardcore fans.  There is no band with the staying power that they have, none even close in my estimation.  It is almost 50 years since their first album and they are in heavy rotation on every rock station known to man.  If this is to remain the case in this ever changing world of information and communication, there has to be a story left behind that is accurate, even if unflattering at times, which I am sure it would be with all that was going on in the 70's.

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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:19 PM, craigled said:

Too many editors think that people want to read in-depth sentences about groupies.

In truth, they're probably not completely wrong about that.  Sex indeed sells, as they say, and these kinds of books aren't marketed for only the relatively small set of more thoughtful fans.

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I doubt the veracity of Page's statement regarding being sued, after all, even after Page passes on, any libelous statements within the book can still bring lawsuits against his heirs and estate. I doubt Page will ever write an autobiography as the music is his living autobiography and that is really what it is all about. People are always on the man regarding stories and a possible autobiography so Page claiming to release such posthumously is likely his way of saying "piss off, listen to the music, that is me, that is my autobiography." After all, once Page is gone and there is no book, nothing can be done and Page will have gone to his reward a happy man instead of hounded about some book. Either that or another photography book will be released as his pictoral autobiography. Now that would be funny.

Stephen Davis is a piece of shit. His LZ75' is complete garbage and downright horrible. JPJ must have kicked Davis in the balls or shagged some groupie Davis fancied because Davis never lets up on Jones the whole book. Davis REALLY hates Jones.

Edited by IpMan

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1 hour ago, IpMan said:

I doubt the veracity of Page's statement regarding being sued, after all, even after Page passes on, any libelous statements within the book can still bring lawsuits against his heirs and estate. I doubt Page will ever write an autobiography as the music is his living autobiography and that is really what it is all about. People are always on the man regarding stories and a possible autobiography so Page claiming to release such posthumously is likely his way of saying "piss off, listen to the music, that is me, that is my autobiography." After all, once Page is gone and there is no book, nothing can be done and Page will have gone to his reward a happy man instead of hounded about some book. Either that or another photography book will be released as his pictoral autobiography. Now that would be funny.

Stephen Davis is a piece of shit. His LZ75' is complete garbage and downright horrible. JPJ must have kicked Davis in the balls or shagged some groupie Davis fancied because Davis never lets up on Jones the whole book. Davis REALLY hates Jones.

I thought the same about his estate potentially being liable, but I'm not a lawyer, nor do I know how Page has structured his affairs.  If it were this easy to sue every famous persons autobiography would bring forth such issues from others.  

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Speaking on the above subject of Jimmy Page's biography.

I see in a tweet from @LedZepNews  that Tight But Loose says:  ' A warts and all biography
could be forthcoming about Jimmy.'
   

I must be honest.  I'd love a good informative book about Jimmy,  however I'm cautious
about this.  Number 1:   I'd  like  Jimmy himself to be involved in the contents;  not solely an
outsider giving their side of what possibly went down decades ago.   Number 2:    I just can't
see Page giving the green light for someone to expose those "ugly warts"  in a book,  and if
he did,   it's likely to be vague,  cryptic and puzzling
:blink: answers to many of those questions.   

On the other hand,   it would be cool for 73 year old Jimmy to finally be at a point where he
knows  Led Zeppelin's  legacy is firmly cemented and a story or two from his lips will not foil
any of that.   After all is somebody reeaaally a fan if they're threatening to  toss out their Zep
music and burn their ZoSo t-shirt  because they discover from Jimmy Page a few dark secrets ?   
Maybe a book about life on the road from Donald Osmond and his brothers would be better
for that  fan.  Sorry to all those One Bad Apple  fans on the Zeppelin board tonight 
:console::lol:

Side note*   Does this also mean nothing so far musically is coming down the pike from him
in 2017.   For example:  Treasures hidden in his vault that he's ready to share.  I guess it's too
early in the year to know for certain if he's got any more things up his sleeve.

Edited by KellyGirl

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I really wish a member of Led Zep would write an autobiography. I think JPJ's autobiography would be interesting. In addition to being a great read for fans, it would put a stop to some of these unauthorized books that are just filled with slime and don't focus on the music.

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On 4/2/2008 at 3:31 PM, rambleon11 said:

Out of curiosity, is there any book the Hardcore Zeppelin fans would recommend?

 

The celebration/ tight b/loose books seem to be quite good to me

Anything by Dave Lewis is authentic, accurate and a fun read.

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One of the things that I remember after reading "Hammer" many, many years ago was how much I questioned all the violence surrounding the group. The incident in Oakland in 1977 was one thing (a very real incident - although did they really beat the dude unconscious in the trailer?), but some of these stories about Cole breaking an annoying fan's jaw with just a "flick of the foot" seem a little far-fetched. I mean, Davis depicts Cole as if he's some kind of mixed martial artist master when he looks pretty much like a regular skinny looking bloke with little muscle on him. He was also wasted half the time. The other issue has to do with the law. I realize that the 1970's were not as litigious as they are today, but even back in the day, some of the stuff that Cole supposedly did to people would've resulted in his arrest and major lawsuits. Davis just treats these violent scenes as if they were nothing more than Cole drinking a cup of tea and the going for a walk. I tend to think that these things, like many things in the book, were inflated and enhanced. I guess Cole reaped some of his karma when he got busted, mistakenly, as a terrorist while trying to get off of dope in Italy. That must've been unbelievably frightening. Cold turkeying in a foreign jail cell, under a different set of laws, for a crime you didn't commit.

Edited by ThreeSticks

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Richard Cole was known to be fearless, and not to be fucked with in any manner. This is why Peter Grant hired him. I once read an article by a guy in some band that I can't remember the name of who called him "the toughest man I've ever met". He then recalled a story about hanging out with him one night. They walked across a street heading to a pub and had a confrontation with a motorcycle gang while crossing this street. The leader of the gang zipped by Cole because he wasn't waiting for them to pass, then circled back and stopped his bike right next to Cole. Cole then promptly kicked the bike with him on it over into the street. The biker furiously got up and into Coles face and quickly backed down while his posse did nothing to help. They then safely proceeded to the pub with Cole leading the way. 

 Michael Des Barres described Cole's role in the band as being "like a Rottweiler pimp. You did not want to fuck with him. He's the gentlest, sweetest man today, but back then, he would shove a coat hanger up your ass and hang you out the window like a wet cunt.

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Edited by blindwillie127

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I realize that the 1970's were not as litigious as they are today, but even back in the day, some of the stuff that Cole supposedly did to people would've resulted in his arrest and major lawsuits

 

I recall Janine Safer, in the Barney Hoskyns "Trampled Underfoot" book, made some comment about how the band would get into trouble and "Steve Weiss would get them out of it" (p 209). I suspect also that some of the people Cole took out (the biker gang in the previous anecdote being a good example) well, police in the 70s (especially in Britain) figured they had better things to do with their time and turned a blind eye. Different world back then.

So maybe 33% got "handled" by lawyers, 33% did happen but the police had better things to do than go after a tour manager, and then maybe the other 33% was exaggerated by Davis.

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Has anyone read an interview or article with Cole where he describes how he used to handle autograph seekers or just regular, normal fans at clubs, pubs, restaurants, hotels, etc., after gigs who wanted to say hi to the band? Not the obnoxious drunks, but real honest fans who just wanted Jimmy or Bonzo to sign their copy of Houses Of The Holy. I don't know.....I just remember reading "Hammer" and felt that the guy had a real nasty hostility towards everyone but the LZ entourage. It's like if you even winked at the band as a fan you were liable to get your jaw broken.

 

Edited by ThreeSticks

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It's still amazing to me that to my understanding, despite all he revealed to Stephen Davis, and despite what he wrote in his own book, that Cole is still supposedly on friendly terms with the surviving band members. Or at least w/ Jimmy Page. I wonder why this is the case? After what he did, and Jimmy and Robert's public dissatisfaction with it in interviews, I felt that they would've never have spoken to him again. Remember, this is band that valued its secrecy. And yet there Richard was, at the O2 after party or whatever it was. Anyone know why this was the case?? And one thing I was also wondering....did Page ever attend Grant's funeral? I know Robert did, because that is what, in part, brought Bad Company back together again.

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On 1/16/2017 at 5:51 PM, KellyGirl said:

Speaking on the above subject of Jimmy Page's biography.

I see in a tweet from @LedZepNews  that Tight But Loose says:  ' A warts and all biography
could be forthcoming about Jimmy.'
   

I must be honest.  I'd love a good informative book about Jimmy,  however I'm cautious
about this.  Number 1:   I'd  like  Jimmy himself to be involved in the contents;  not solely an
outsider giving their side of what possibly went down decades ago.   Number 2:    I just can't
see Page giving the green light for someone to expose those "ugly warts"  in a book,  and if
he did,   it's likely to be vague,  cryptic and puzzling
:blink: answers to many of those questions.   

On the other hand,   it would be cool for 73 year old Jimmy to finally be at a point where he
knows  Led Zeppelin's  legacy is firmly cemented and a story or two from his lips will not foil
any of that.   After all is somebody reeaaally a fan if they're threatening to  toss out their Zep
music and burn their ZoSo t-shirt  because they discover from Jimmy Page a few dark secrets ?   
Maybe a book about life on the road from Donald Osmond and his brothers would be better
for that  fan.  Sorry to all those One Bad Apple  fans on the Zeppelin board tonight 
:console::lol:

Side note*   Does this also mean nothing so far musically is coming down the pike from him
in 2017.   For example:  Treasures hidden in his vault that he's ready to share.  I guess it's too
early in the year to know for certain if he's got any more things up his sleeve.

I'd like to see an authorized biography too, and it seems like a great retirement project for him. I'd like even more if he and Jim McCarty got together and packaged a great Page-era Yardbirds release for us. They had plenty of material for a great album in the works and were cranking out new things even as they went their separate ways - such a great working band. This was something Page was talking about at the end of 2015 but I think the "Stairway" trial put that on hold. This might be the year?

Edited by Mercurious

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On 23/02/2017 at 9:19 AM, ThreeSticks said:

It's still amazing to me that to my understanding, despite all he revealed to Stephen Davis, and despite what he wrote in his own book, that Cole is still supposedly on friendly terms with the surviving band members. Or at least w/ Jimmy Page. I wonder why this is the case? After what he did, and Jimmy and Robert's public dissatisfaction with it in interviews, I felt that they would've never have spoken to him again. Remember, this is band that valued its secrecy. And yet there Richard was, at the O2 after party or whatever it was. Anyone know why this was the case?? And one thing I was also wondering....did Page ever attend Grant's funeral? I know Robert did, because that is what, in part, brought Bad Company back together again.

Because people get older and wiser, some forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones. They probably very close at one point and shared a lot of good times together. Life's too short and nobody's perfect. 

Also whatever their claim to authenticity both Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven have added to the Zeppelin legend.

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16 hours ago, babysquid said:

Also whatever their claim to authenticity both Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven have added to the Zeppelin legend.

...and that's why I don't denigrate either book. Are they incomplete and/or exaggerated in many ways? Of course - the "facts" (true or altered in some way) are from one or two points of view only. However, as an introduction to LZ (and knowing in advance that they aren't gospel for all things Zep), they are fine. Just as babysquid alluded to, even Robert Plant himself conceded that 'Hammer of the Gods' increased the aura of the band. 

I view them as kind of tabloid accounts of real events - the basic story is relayed, but certain details are for entertainment value only.

I'd love for the surviving members of LZ to do what Genesis did with their band biography (called 'Chapter and Verse') - trace the history of the band with interjections from each of the three members peppered within the timeline of their story - thus, each would get the opportunity (or several) to elaborate on or dispel stories about the band. Frankly, I think Jimmy would be right up for it, as would JPJ...who knows about Robert.

My two cents...

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Hmm well doesn't Dreja and McCarty hold all the keys to Yardbird stuff?  In other words Page probably
wouldn't put much effort towards YB releases unless he is was guaranteed a producers credit.  And for
some reason I get the feeling that's not about to be coming anytime soon. 

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No lawyer, but I really doubt any suing. There are many rock star autobiographies with outrageous illegal behavior, no

lawsuits. Honestly can't see Jimmy ever opening his gates for a honest autobiography. Also think if Jimmy heard

Plant or Jones doing an auto, the normally shy Page would suddenly become quite vocal and tell whomever 

to check with him for "clearance". What's really stupid is that everyone knows Jimmy became a poly substance addict,

and had quite underage girls around. I mean, how horrible could other secrets top the ones just mentioned ???

Did he kill someone ??? Beat a girl up bloody ?? 99% no. The darkest stuff is likeliest out, but no auto from Jim

because maybe he pretends no one knows his past extreme behaviors.

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Page struggles to give a direct answer about the simplest of musical matters and you're expecting him to be involved in an expose on his darkest secrets.

Absolutely no chance.

The only time he begrudgingly does interviews is to promote Zep reissues.

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Well maybe you skipped over some of my usual rambling entries, but I did actually say no way ever for a Page auto.

And (ha Ha)  Page often gives almost hilariously incorrect or outright fibs regarding Zep's music or what guitars or

gear, etc. he used. Just like in the last 5-10 years, JPJ  is now known for far more of Zep's musical content than before.

Not properly credited........

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On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 11:11 PM, babysquid said:

Because people get older and wiser, some forgive and forget and let bygones be bygones. They probably very close at one point and shared a lot of good times together. Life's too short and nobody's perfect. 

Also whatever their claim to authenticity both Hammer of the Gods and Stairway to Heaven have added to the Zeppelin legend.

I understand that, but if an interviewer these days talks to Jimmy about any of the darker sides of him that were revealed in The Hammer Of The Gods, he treats the interviewer with major hostility, when really, the problem was Cole for letting the secrets out. He has a right to not answer those questions, but to say to the interviewer "well how do you know".....it's not the interviewer's fault that the info is out.

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Posted (edited)

On 2/26/2017 at 9:33 PM, KellyGirl said:

Hmm well doesn't Dreja and McCarty hold all the keys to Yardbird stuff?  In other words Page probably
wouldn't put much effort towards YB releases unless he is was guaranteed a producers credit.  And for
some reason I get the feeling that's not about to be coming anytime soon. 

I'm not sure about the legal details but I think the  common law idea is that Page has everything that belonged to him and Relf, Dreja and McCarty kept rights to their stuff, whether Page played on it or not. They didn't write a lot of those hits themselves but a "Little Games" release requires Page's approval (or so I think). The 1983 re-release of "Roger the Engineer" required Page's involvement b/c the two Page singles releases ("Happenings Ten Years Time Ago" and "Psycho Daisies") that were not on the original album were going to be on the new package for the first time (made it a must-get). Steve Jones would surely know more details. 

Page talked about a Yardbirds-related project before the trial, and sure enough, he's right back to that idea after the trial.  I found this post at Gibson.com from just a few months ago - Sept. 21, 2016:

Quote

Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page is doing the press rounds to promote Zep’s recently released archival set, The Complete BBC Sessions, which is an expanded edition of the 1997 BBC Sessions compilation. In the process of taking about the collection, he spoke up about new music. Chatting with the U.K.’s Planet Rock, Page said he thought he would be “playing with other musicians” by now, but that will probably have to wait until 2017.

"Clearly now it's not going to materialize until next year [2017]," he said in the interview. "That's not that far away now!"

Page added that he’s been “quite rightly” called out for taking too long to start making new music, but compiling The Complete BBC Sessions took a lot of time.

"The BBC Sessions was an epic, when you think everything has to be listened to in real time and all of that," Page said. "It's an epic but it's an epic I was really prepared to take on because historically it was really important for people to have all that information about what was going on in the studio at that point of time."

Page also hinted that he has plans to put together an archival collection with performances by his pre-Zeppelin group, the Yardbirds.

"I'm in touch with the members of The Yardbirds and I hope to be seeing them relatively soon and then the material I've got we'll see how much of it comes out," he said.

The Complete BBC Sessions packs Led Zeppelin recordings taken from concerts or radio programs that aired live on the radio from 1969 to 1971. It also features eight previously unreleased performances.

Relatively soon?  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Edited by Mercurious

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Posted (edited)

There's another strange part towards the ending of the book where Cole and Page were visiting backstage at one of the ARMS concerts. Cole says to Page, "So how is Fatso (meaning, Peter Grant)?" Page replied, "I fired that (bleep) (bleep)." Well, you get the idea, he didn't have kind words to say about Grant. Davis provides no explanation for Jimmy's comments to Cole. Did Jimmy and Grant have a major falling out?? I mean, of all the people to bash over the head, I would think that Grant would be the last guy to get it. Those 4 chaps owe almost everything to him. He was the first manager to ever make sure that his clients got the money owed to them. He stayed out of the way of the music.  He was honest in his dealings and only took a small % compared to most managers. His pioneering methods (however controversial) forever changed the way that record labels and concert promoters dealt with artists. I don't know.....I realize that Jimmy was  all messed up around that time, but it was extremely shocking to hear him say such nasty words about Grant. Which makes me think.....did Jimmy even bother to show up to Grant's funeral? I know Robert and the members of Bad Company did.

Edited by ThreeSticks

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On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 1:43 PM, ThreeSticks said:

Those 4 chaps owe almost everything to him. He was the first manager to ever make sure that his clients got the money owed to them. He stayed out of the way of the music.  He was honest in his dealings and only took a small % compared to most managers. His pioneering methods (however controversial) forever changed the way that record labels and concert promoters dealt with artists.

Peter Grant was a very shrewd and savvy business man/band manager.  As far a percentages were concerned, it is my belief that Peter Grant was an equal member of Led Zeppelin.  He received 20% of all of the earnings made by Led Zeppelin.  He was even listed as "Executive Producer" on all of Led Zeppelin albums. 

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On 02/03/2017 at 3:43 AM, ThreeSticks said:

There's another strange part towards the ending of the book where Cole and Page were visiting backstage at one of the ARMS concerts. Cole says to Page, "So how is Fatso (meaning, Peter Grant)?" Page replied, "I fired that (bleep) (bleep)." Well, you get the idea, he didn't have kind words to say about Grant. Davis provides no explanation for Jimmy's comments to Cole. Did Jimmy and Grant have a major falling out?? I mean, of all the people to bash over the head, I would think that Grant would be the last guy to get it. Those 4 chaps owe almost everything to him. He was the first manager to ever make sure that his clients got the money owed to them. He stayed out of the way of the music.  He was honest in his dealings and only took a small % compared to most managers. His pioneering methods (however controversial) forever changed the way that record labels and concert promoters dealt with artists. I don't know.....I realize that Jimmy was  all messed up around that time, but it was extremely shocking to hear him say such nasty words about Grant. Which makes me think.....did Jimmy even bother to show up to Grant's funeral? I know Robert and the members of Bad Company did.

Yeah he showed up. It's all in 'The Man who Led Zeppelin'. 

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