What was punk?

[MadScreamingGallery]

Yes, most definately. Great guitarist and later Captain Sensible too. Jimmy Page loved that first Damned album with Brian James. "Wearing and Tearing" is the bastard child of "New Rose".

Television: Double Exposure1974 Rehearsal (Richard Lloyd is not visible but he is on the left and you can hear his guitar).

I'm on a flyby right now and, at the moment, don't have time to read and respond to all of the other posts. As a teenager in NYC in the 1970s, I remember when punk emerged (I think Television was probably the first punk band I heard live). My friends and I frequently (almost nightly) visited the new clubs that were opening downtown. Jimmy Page, the other members of LZ, and many other "rock stars" visited the punk music clubs too, when they were in town. It was, musically, a very exciting and interesting time. Rebellion, a bit of anarchy, and a lot of freedom.

[Swede]

Television: Double Exposure1974 Rehearsal (Richard Lloyd is not visible but he is on the left and you can hear his guitar).

I'm on a flyby right now and, at the moment, don't have time to read and respond to all of the other posts. As a teenager in NYC in the 1970s, I remember when punk emerged (I think Television was probably the first punk band I heard live). My friends and I frequently (almost nightly) visited the new clubs that were opening downtown. Jimmy Page, the other members of LZ, and many other "rock stars" visited the punk music clubs too, when they were in town. It was, musically, a very exciting and interesting time. Rebellion, a bit of anarchy, and a lot of freedom.

Great post MSG!

[greenman]

As fa as whether punk "needed" to happen or not I'd say that more than anything else it was a reaction to certain kinds of music being held back by the status quo of the mid 70's. Most obviously the grungy rock that made up the first wave of bands but areas like Krautrock(PiL, Wire, Joy Division etc) and Reggae(latter Clash, The Speicals, Madness etc) only really started to become wildly popular influences afterwards.

[BIGDAN]

WHAT?!

One of my favorite guitarists was in The Damned, Brian James, he played loads of solos! Chuck Berry on acid!

Hi Swede,

Sorry matey I'm not buying it, if Led Zeppelin played music equivalent to a fine vintage champagne then the nearest punk could get would equate to a cup of cold piss.

I lived through the Punk era in London, i even went to see some of the bands, it bored the pants off of me, it still does. If you call what you linked too a guitar solo then that's your prerogative, it comes up pretty short in my book of guitar solos, Page, Hendrix, Beck, Blackmore, Gilmore, Lifeson, Collins-Rossington-Gaines, Immoni, even Clapton are what you call people who do guitar solos, i don't look to anyone in punk to float my boat and i don't listen to anything that doesn't move me emotionally, but that's me, i was brought up on extremely talented musicians making innovative music not on a bunch of gobby kids with nothing to say, and saying that too loudly.

I had a friend in the punk era, he played with the Cockney Rejects, went by the name of Mickey Geggus, he even did a session with Robert Plant, he would be the last person in the world to compare himself the the likes of the above.

Punk, for me was all about a bunch of semi talented kids being rebellious and at the time being very discourteous to established musicians and the establishment in general, being musically talented or gifted was of little importance to them but being obnoxious and to dress putridity was a must. If i could erase punk from history i wouldn't, it is a statement to just how low people can get just to become famous and rude, just as rap is doing now, just my honest opinion you understand?

Regards, Danny

[Swede]

Hi Swede,

Sorry matey I'm not buying it, if Led Zeppelin played music equivalent to a fine vintage champagne then the nearest punk could get would equate to a cup of cold piss.

I lived through the Punk era in London, i even went to see some of the bands, it bored the pants off of me, it still does. If you call what you linked too a guitar solo then that's your prerogative, it comes up pretty short in my book of guitar solos, Page, Hendrix, Beck, Blackmore, Gilmore, Lifeson, Collins-Rossington-Gaines, Immoni, even Clapton are what you call people who do guitar solos, i don't look to anyone in punk to float my boat and i don't listen to anything that doesn't move me emotionally, but that's me, i was brought up on extremely talented musicians making innovative music not on a bunch of gobby kids with nothing to say, and saying that too loudly.

I had a friend in the punk era, he played with the Cockney Rejects, went by the name of Mickey Geggus, he even did a session with Robert Plant, he would be the last person in the world to compare himself the the likes of the above.

Punk, for me was all about a bunch of semi talented kids being rebellious and at the time being very discourteous to established musicians and the establishment in general, being musically talented or gifted was of little importance to them but being obnoxious and to dress putridity was a must. If i could erase punk from history i wouldn't, it is a statement to just how low people can get just to become famous and rude, just as rap is doing now, just my honest opinion you understand?

Regards, Danny

Hiya BIGDAN, I understand that you don't like punk rock, that ain't much different from me not liking 70's prog rock. However, what I don't understand, is how you can judge the whole punk scene as gobby kids without anything to say.. A lot of them was great musicians, no matter if they played simple three chord rock'n'roll songs. JMHO.

Cheers

[BIGDAN]

Hiya BIGDAN, I understand that you don't like punk rock, that ain't much different from me not liking 70's prog rock. However, what I don't understand, is how you can judge the whole punk scene as gobby kids without anything to say.. A lot of them was great musicians, no matter if they played simple three chord rock'n'roll songs. JMHO.

Cheers

Hi Swede,

Actualy, i dont mind Punk Rock, although at the time i was so in too Led Zeppelin and the hard rock scene that i didnt give it a chance, and someone had to be devils advocate didnt they? As for Prog Rock, i'm with you on that one mate, i just cant see where the heart is in it, there is so little blues at its heart that it feels like it has no soul.

I had so many fights with the punks that i have lost count of them, i never liked their attitude, they were always overly aggresive without the backbone to follow it through, true gobby kids, but the musicians who you call great i would call mediocre, thats just my take on it, i could be wrong about the musicians but not i think about the punks.

If you cant understand how i judge that whole punk era then you wont be able to understand my loathing for rap either so i wont bother to take you through it, as i said before, i had my sights set higher on both occations.

Regards, Danny

[dazedcat]

Well let's see, Elton John played a gig dressed as Donald Duck. Peter Frampton became a mega million selling superstar. Fleetwood Mac which used to be one of the finest British Blues band ever got a couple of chicks and did the soap opera love triangle thing and sold a gazillion records in the process. Steely Dan turned into Hollywood studio slickage. The Doobie Brothers turned into more blue eyed soul Hollywood slickage. Aerosmith collectively was too stoned to make great hard rock records anymore. What 60's era bands that were still in existence sounded predictable, bloated and exhausted. Electric Light Orchestra? Kansas? Boston?

That's why punk started. It had to.

Regards;

[greenman]

Well let's see, Elton John played a gig dressed as Donald Duck. Peter Frampton became a mega million selling superstar. Fleetwood Mac which used to be one of the finest British Blues band ever got a couple of chicks and did the soap opera love triangle thing and sold a gazillion records in the process. Steely Dan turned into Hollywood studio slickage. The Doobie Brothers turned into more blue eyed soul Hollywood slickage. Aerosmith collectively was too stoned to make great hard rock records anymore. What 60's era bands that were still in existence sounded predictable, bloated and exhausted. Electric Light Orchestra? Kansas? Boston?

That's why punk started. It had to.

Regards;

I quite enjoy latter Steely Dan personally but the idea that Punk killed everything that was around previously stone dead isnt really true. Bands still producing decent work(Zep, Queen, Floyd etc) didnt really suffer anything more than a few jibs from the press, rather it was those trading on past glories or riding on others coat tails that suffered the massive hit in popularity.

[Bong-Man]

Punk was just the MC5 and The Stooges ten years late.

[LarryD]

As for Prog Rock, i'm with you on that one mate, i just cant see where the heart is in it, there is so little blues at its heart that it feels like it has no soul.

I find it sad that you find no "heart" in progressive rock. I love the blues and if music doesn't have that characteristic it can still have "soul" to it. We're all moved by different music as it's a subjective pleasure. Cerebral, complex music just appeals to a different level of appreciation. Lots of people consider Led Zeppelin "progressive rock" and indeed they expanded rock in their direction, but not Prog Rock in the sense of King Crimson, Gentle Giant or Yes IMHO. There is so much "heart" in KC's Epitaph, I Talk to the Wind; GG's Pantagruel's Nativity, Nothing at All; Yes's Heart of the Sunrise and And You and I that I fail to understand how you can't "see it".

Then again, as I said, it's all subjective.

btw Bong-Man, I think Punk was more like 15 years late, The Who were amongst the earliest Punkers IMO.

[BIGDAN]

I find it sad that you find no "heart" in progressive rock. I love the blues and if music doesn't have that characteristic it can still have "soul" to it. We're all moved by different music as it's a subjective pleasure. Cerebral, complex music just appeals to a different level of appreciation. Lots of people consider Led Zeppelin "progressive rock" and indeed they expanded rock in their direction, but not Prog Rock in the sense of King Crimson, Gentle Giant or Yes IMHO. There is so much "heart" in KC's Epitaph, I Talk to the Wind; GG's Pantagruel's Nativity, Nothing at All; Yes's Heart of the Sunrise and And You and I that I fail to understand how you can't "see it".

Then again, as I said, it's all subjective.

btw Bong-Man, I think Punk was more like 15 years late, The Who were amongst the earliest Punkers IMO.

Hi LarryD,

Maybe i used the wrong word when i used "heart", but Prog Rock never moved me like the music of Led Zeppelin did and still does, i have nothing against it or any other genre of music but i do have my favourites and i have stuck by them for so many years now that i don't think i need to change. And you're right, it is all subjective.

Regards, Danny

[greenman]

Prog generally was a bit of an evolutionary dead end IMHO, you look at the way musics devolped since then and the influences I mentioned coming though which Punk(attitude rock, krautrock etc) are vastly more important. I enjoy some of it but overall I'd say it tended to fail in its stated aim of producing "high art". Besides the Floyd and maybe some King Crimson it just sounds like typical rock with too much ego and too little imagintion to me. Any influence from classicalz music was generally pretty superficial with the better post rock of recent decades(Talk Talk, Bark Physcosis, Godspeed You Black Emporer, Mogawi etc) does a far better job of producing something similar to classical in a rock setting IMHO.

[Swede]

Hi Swede,

Actualy, i dont mind Punk Rock, although at the time i was so in too Led Zeppelin and the hard rock scene that i didnt give it a chance, and someone had to be devils advocate didnt they? As for Prog Rock, i'm with you on that one mate, i just cant see where the heart is in it, there is so little blues at its heart that it feels like it has no soul.

I had so many fights with the punks that i have lost count of them, i never liked their attitude, they were always overly aggresive without the backbone to follow it through, true gobby kids, but the musicians who you call great i would call mediocre, thats just my take on it, i could be wrong about the musicians but not i think about the punks.

If you cant understand how i judge that whole punk era then you wont be able to understand my loathing for rap either so i wont bother to take you through it, as i said before, i had my sights set higher on both occations.

Regards, Danny

Fair enough. I am with you on the attitude, I have never understood the idea of the spitting thing, and that goes for both bands and crowds.. However, I really don't think all bands were the same. Many musicians went on to record great pop and rock albums in the early 80's, some of them might have played simple music, but sure knew how to make a pop song with great melodies and hooks. Also some wrote very clever lyrics.

Some bands that were really great was The Undertones, Damned, Buzzcocks, Dead Boys, The Boys and Dead Kennedy's.

[BIGDAN]

Fair enough. I am with you on the attitude, I have never understood the idea of the spitting thing, and that goes for both bands and crowds.. However, I really don't think all bands were the same. Many musicians went on to record great pop and rock albums in the early 80's, some of them might have played simple music, but sure knew how to make a pop song with great melodies and hooks. Also some wrote very clever lyrics.

Some bands that were really great was The Undertones, Damned, Buzzcocks, Dead Boys, The Boys and Dead Kennedy's.

Hi Swede,

That's where i think we differ, i absolutely hate POP music, always have and always will, even when Robert Plant appeared on TOTP doing Big Log, it was cringe worthy as far as i was concerned. I never like or get in too Political lyrics as in U2, the Word from the Street should stay on the Street as i have no interest in it as in Rap and Punk, even my old friends in the Cockney Rejects don't appeal too me and they were even managed by Peter Grant himself back in the 80s.

But i do agree with you that some Punk Music was good, but never great in my honest opinion, but that's just me, you are entitled to your opinion too and that's what makes music so great and diverse and i wouldn't have it any other way nor should it be so. We all need to feed emotionally on what musical food-stocks we can happily digest, while i might feast on caviar and you might snack on dog-shit or tother way around its all emotional food to us and just a matter of the taste of the individual. It doesn't matter how good the music or how talented the musicians are, it only matters how much you enjoy their offerings, there should be no league tables or cups to win as far as music is concerned, there should only be love, joy and emotion, or maybe just fun.

Once i found Led Zeppelin my musical quest was over, i knew that right away, all i had to do from them on was enjoy it at every opportunity, which i still do, but it doesn't stop me from eating out musically from time to time, but i always come back to what sustains me emotionally, only thing is that I'm always hungry for more, a glutton for nourishment i suppose.

Here's to you Swede. and may you stay Oh So Pretty but never be Vacant.

Very Kind Regards, Danny

[leddy]

Punk hmmm a load of oveblown shit in my opinion, the energy was good and it was a way of as someone said, playing not alot as people couldn't be bothered to sit down and learn...you only have to go back 8 years from 77 and hear Communication Breakdown for proto type punk tune without the words of fuck, hate and spit on anyone. But Anarchy in the UK is a good tune.

I admit it was good to strip things down a bit like early Rock and Roll after Popular music was getting to epic proportions musically with the likes of Zeppelin and Yes, bit like Grunge in the early 90's where they came along and stripped it down again after popular music was getting sophisticated...it will happen again soon I guess as a backlash to alot of Metal bands who can actually play well. Thats another thing why is it that if you can actually play well and master your chosen instrument do lesser musicians come along and slag emm off.

Nothing compares to good musicianship in any style whether you like that style or not. Punk had the energy and as a 15 year old thats great but now it just sounds dated !!

[Wolfman]

I know I'm in the minority here but other than the Clash and the Ramones, I think most punk bands of the late 70's suck. I'll never understand why these punk bands, who could barely play their instruments, are so respected yet so many rock bands of that era are looked down upon or are considered cheesy by "music historians". Most people will say it was their attitude. Who gives a shit? I want good music.

[59LesPaul]

I know I'm in the minority here but other than the Clash and the Ramones, I think most punk bands of the late 70's suck.

There's other punk bands besides the Clash and the Ramones?

[Wolfman]

There's other punk bands besides the Clash and the Ramones?

[kaiser]

Like any genre of music, the majority of it sucks, it doesn't matter what it is. There are punk bands I love but the majority I think suck, but the same goes for heavy metal, hard rock, country, rap, etc. & I love some artists in those fields but it doesn't mean I think their whole genre is great because of those who are exceptional at what they do.

As for punk, I really don't care what "God Save The Queen", "Blitzkrieg Bop", "White Riot", "Marquee Moon", "Rip Her To Shreds", "Oh, Bondage Up Yours!" & "Orgasm Addict" MEAN, I like & enjoy the songs. I don't listen to music strictly based on an anti- authority stance. It's cool if it's thats there but in the end the songs have to be good. The punk bands & artists I like, I feel, have stood the test of time through their songs, even the lesser known artists that barely made a dent. It's just music & it's there to be enjoyed.

[greenman]

Punk hmmm a load of oveblown shit in my opinion, the energy was good and it was a way of as someone said, playing not alot as people couldn't be bothered to sit down and learn...you only have to go back 8 years from 77 and hear Communication Breakdown for proto type punk tune without the words of fuck, hate and spit on anyone. But Anarchy in the UK is a good tune.

I admit it was good to strip things down a bit like early Rock and Roll after Popular music was getting to epic proportions musically with the likes of Zeppelin and Yes, bit like Grunge in the early 90's where they came along and stripped it down again after popular music was getting sophisticated...it will happen again soon I guess as a backlash to alot of Metal bands who can actually play well. Thats another thing why is it that if you can actually play well and master your chosen instrument do lesser musicians come along and slag emm off.

Nothing compares to good musicianship in any style whether you like that style or not. Punk had the energy and as a 15 year old thats great but now it just sounds dated !!

I disagree, good muscianship maybe a means to an end if its backed up with good songwritting and invention but otherwise its largely worthless to me.

Now the opening blast of Punk doesnt greatly interest me but alot of those involved and many who followed them went on to produce music I find vastly superior to most of what was going on in the mid 70's. There maybe werent as many obvious virtuoso muscians but there were a heck of alot of good ones with alot more character and taste than Rick Wakeman ever had.

[kaiser]

We're on a Zeppelin board. Jimmy Page is my all time favorite musician but he had to start somewhere. It wasn't "Dazed and Confused" & "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" right out of the box for him. He was raking out 3 chord songs doing sessions for years & then eventually joining the Yardbirds. I like his guitar playing with the Yardbirds but it wasn't Led Zeppelin level yet. The same applies with the other Zeppelin members, they had to start somewhere & eventually when they all joined together something dynamic happend. That debut album couldn't have happend without all the years it took for them seperately to get to that same musical ground. But... it took years.

I think that's part of the reason why punks of the 70's, especially the English punks, are resented. They were teenagers who were just inspired to start playing instruments & we're learning as they went along & then they have record contracts in a years time. Of course they weren't virtuoso's. Don't blame them because they got signed more for their style of dress than their abilty, that's what record companies have always done since day one. A lot of those who got contracts sucked & they didn't last. Others just grew & grew in their musicianship but were never interested in making the music that ELP made... ever. They stuck to their roots with bands like the Small Faces, early Who & Kinks, then the Stooges & Dolls, while expanding on that with other outside interests like reggae, krautrock, african & latin rhythms, or whatever else as their abilty progressed. Rock music is not limited to the Jimi Hendrix archtype of the virtuoso guitar god, who was an artist who never limited himself but those who emulated him usually limit themselves & that's why they're not as good as him, as do the punks of today who limit themselves to what they think punk is & they're not as good as what came before.

[LarryD]

As I keep up with reading this discussion I must admit that my first experience with punks was lighting firecrackers. Maybe that's what these kids had in mind, firing up some crackers!!

[Red_Cloverleaf]

This was punk;

[dazedcat]

I always thought this was punk, but hey that's just me.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDJShMk-r88&feature=related

[Ady]

I don't think you can get more punk than this.