Genesis : Before or after Peter Gabriel ?

[joe (Liverpool)]

I don't know if there has been a thread about this. In my opinion Peter Gabriel is in my top 10 male vocalists. What is your opinion on this?

Edited June 12, 2012 by joe (Liverpool)

[reswati]

Genesis without him ain't the same (sorry but I hate Phil on vocals, and the theatrics that Peter Gabriel brought to the band were awesome)

Also Peter recorded one of the most beautiful albums ever made (Passion), possibly one of the coolest solo records ever made.

Passion Sources is also a very great collection of world music for which i am still thankful that he put that out.

Edited June 12, 2012 by reswati

[joe (Liverpool)]

I recently bought(on cd unusual for me) A Peter Gabriel sort of best of collection, but the record label released the most recent version of- Here Comes The Flood, and not the original that was the only track that I was disappointed with. Back to the thread, Peters voice was much more powerful than Phils, and as you metioned his theatrics, and the costumes he wore in their live acts during the early days, with hardly any money to spend, gave Genesis the start of their huge following of fans. Especially live

[jimmie ray]

Peter Gabriel's songs and videos were about the only thing I could tolerate, when so many people insisted on watching MTV years ago. I was disappointed that "Steam" wasn't on the greatest hits CD that I recently got.

[Walter]

Peter was GREAT to see in concert on his Us tour back in the early 90's. Saw genesis back in the mid 80's....I like their music better after Peter left, but obviously he was a huge part of what made genesis a successful band in the first place.

[joe (Liverpool)]

The CD I purchased is titled "HIT The Definitive Two CD Collection" and consists of : Solsbury Hill, ShockThe Monkey, Sledgehammer, Don't Give Up, Games Without Frontiers, Big Time, Burn Yo Up, Burn You Down, Growing Up, Digging in the Dirt, Blood Of Eden, More Than This, Biko, Steam, Red Rain, Here Comes The Flood, San Jacinto, No Self-Control, Cloudless, The Rhythm Of The Heat, I Have The Touch, I Grieve, D.I.Y. A Different Drum, The Drop, The Tower That Ate People, Lovetown, Father,Son, Signal To Noise, Downside Up (Live), Washing Of The Water. It's on REAL WORLD. EMI label.

[chillumpuffer]

I don't know if there has been a thread about this. In my opinion Peter Gabriel is in my top 10 male vocalists. What is your opinion on this?

Don't mind Peter Gabriel when he was in Genesis and I quite liked Solsbury Hill but hated Sledgehammer. Not a fan of Phil Collins, but weirdly enough i really like Trick of the Tail, which of course is post Gabriel Genesis. But when I saw Genesis live on the Wind and Wuthering tour, they were without doubt the dullest band i had ever seen.

[Strider]

Never much cared for Genesis either way, pre- or post-Peter Gabriel. I even saw them on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway tour in 1975. But most of their music just wasn't my cup of tea.

Genesis definitely became more radio-friendly with Phil Collins, but even more dull and bland to my ears.

On the other hand, I liked Peter Gabriel's solo albums, especially the first 4 or 5...everything up to "So". After that, he seemed to be regurgitating himself..."Steam" was almost a carbon copy of "Sledgehammer", even the video was the same.

Plus, like Paul Simon and Bono, he seemed to develop a Messianic-complex...as if he alone was the first white man to discover the Third World and its music. My interest in his music faded over the years.

But I still listen to those first 5 Gabriel albums. I hardly listen to Genesis ever...the only Genesis albums I still own are "Lamb" and the one in the 80s with "Home by the Sea" and "Mama".

[JTM]

I recently bought(on cd unusual for me) A Peter Gabriel sort of best of collection, but the record label released the most recent version of- Here Comes The Flood, and not the original that was the only track that I was disappointed with. Back to the thread, Peters voice was much more powerful than Phils, and as you metioned his theatrics, and the costumes he wore in their live acts during the early days, with hardly any money to spend, gave Genesis the start of their huge following of fans. Especially live

There is an excellent version of Here Comes The Flood on Robert Fripp's album Exposure,

[Sagittarius Rising]

Peter Gabriel by far better than Phil "Colon." I loved when he would come out on stage dressed as a turd or something else equally absurd. And that hairstyle he had around 75' was insane! Who the hell shaves a landing strip down the middle of their head??? Peter Gabriel that's who.

Robert Plant and Peter Gabriel are also very good friends and play tennis together.

[Cletus]

GENESIS were at their peark(musically) with PG in the band, IMO. I think the first 3 Post-PG albums are all worthy additions to any Prog Rock collection, though. 1980(with the release of "Duke") is where it goes downhill.

[joe (Liverpool)]

Sorry Major Major, I should have said with or without Peter Gabriel

[missytootsweet]

I vote for the brief transition era right smack in the middle, post Gabriel. I got the Lamb lies down, and one Peter Gabriel solo album (the one with Shock the Monkey which tells you how much an impression it made on me, can't remember anything else about it).

But Trick of the Tail is another ball of wax. Phil Collins along with the other players do a great job imo without Peter and it's one of the prog rock standouts of the decade. My understanding is they did audition others for the lead (post Gabriel), but Phil ended up sounding the best. Seems a lot of people dismiss Phil Collins talents (generally speaking here) and I can't understand why. He's a pretty good drummer, yes? And I recently read in my book on Don Henley that it is extremely difficult to find any singers that also drum because it is incredibly difficult to pull off both at the same time and not have either suffer. More respect for Mr. Collins from me.

Disclaimer: This is my Phil Collins/Genesis album I listen to and the only one. Got "And then there were three," and "Abacab" and thought they were both mediocre at best, but please not Trick of Tail! That's a winner. Be interested in what you think of these couple Trick songs. Some hard a** rock here. missy

Squonk

And this too....Dance on a Volcano

One last thing, if anyone wants to get this, my advice is to seek out the vinyl where you will really appreciate how balanced and sonically perfect this record is. On these CD versions Phil's vocals are buried and the mix is way too loud imo, but not much choice on you/tube. missy

[missytootsweet]

^ IIRC, at the time it was released, Squonk was described in one UK review as 'Zeppelin-esque' - which the riff is, kind of.

Dance On A Volcano was probably just about the last tricksy, proggy song I ever liked. It's great.

But my favs from that album are probably the quiet songs - particularly Entangled, which I think is a masterpiece.

Totally agree with you! I almost put up Entangled, but figured I'd stick with the rockers. But now I feel like listening to it, so I'll post it on this reply. One thing that is evident is someone did a terrible job getting this onto CD. I don't know if they remastered or over remastered but the sound on the CD is lousy. (No highs or lows and everything is too loud, reminds me of a mono record blasted up real loud) Trust me, I'm no audiophile but anyone who wants this I would urge to look for the vinyl...day and night difference in the quality of the sound.

Edited June 13, 2012 by missytootsweet

[Nutrocker]

IMO Genesis underwent their biggest stylistic change not with the departure of Peter Gabriel but rather when Steve Hackett left after the Wind And Wuthering tour (1977). Michael Rutherford is a great bass player but a lousy lead guitarist. If they were smart after Hackett left they would have brought in Chester Thompson and Darryl Stuermer as full time members and not just as touring appendages (though I fucking hate what Darryl does to the classic Hackett solos...DS overplays way too much whereas SH's style is the epitome of restraint and playing for the song). People always blame Phil Collins for the decline in their music but Tony Banks and Michael Rutherford also had tendencies at times to let their egos run rampant as well (which is why Steve Hackett left in the first place). Though I admit IMO the worst thing to happen to Genesis was when Phil started making solo albums; with Abacab it really became the Phil Collins Show and that's pretty much when I got off the Genesis train.

When Peter Gabriel was in the band, people seem to have this mistaken impression that he was the brains and driving force behind the whole thing. Not so; The Lamb was his baby but up till then he was really just the singer; the vast majority of the songwriting was Banks and Rutherford. But the bottom line is Peter Gabriel's talents -not only as a songwriter but as a performer- ultimately transcend Genesis. Compare PG's solo career with Collins-era Genesis. Sure, Peter did go off on the world music tangent a bit too much maybe but to give him his due every one of his projects has been wholly original (Passion and his fourth album IMO are total works of art superior to the entire Genesis catalogue) whereas Genesis got pretty repetitive (not to mention predicable) after Trick Of The Tail.

Ultimately, you almost have to look at Gabriel-era and Collins-era as two different bands, if that makes any sense. But musically and stylistically Steve Hackett's departure was the real dividing line.

[missytootsweet]

IMO Genesis underwent their biggest stylistic change not with the departure of Peter Gabriel but rather when Steve Hackett left after the Wind And Wuthering tour (1977). Michael Rutherford is a great bass player but a lousy lead guitarist. If they were smart after Hackett left they would have brought in Chester Thompson and Darryl Stuermer as full time members and not just as touring appendages (though I fucking hate what Darryl does to the classic Hackett solos...DS overplays way too much whereas SH's style is the epitome of restraint and playing for the song). People always blame Phil Collins for the decline in their music but Tony Banks and Michael Rutherford also had tendencies at times to let their egos run rampant as well (which is why Steve Hackett left in the first place). Though I admit IMO the worst thing to happen to Genesis was when Phil started making solo albums; with Abacab it really became the Phil Collins Show and that's pretty much when I got off the Genesis train.

When Peter Gabriel was in the band, people seem to have this mistaken impression that he was the brains and driving force behind the whole thing. Not so; The Lamb was his baby but up till then he was really just the singer; the vast majority of the songwriting was Banks and Rutherford. But the bottom line is Peter Gabriel's talents -not only as a songwriter but as a performer- ultimately transcend Genesis. Compare PG's solo career with Collins-era Genesis. Sure, Peter did go off on the world music tangent a bit too much maybe but to give him his due every one of his projects has been wholly original (Passion and his fourth album IMO are total works of art superior to the entire Genesis catalogue) whereas Genesis got pretty repetitive (not to mention predicable) after Trick Of The Tail.

Ultimately, you almost have to look at Gabriel-era and Collins-era as two different bands, if that makes any sense. But musically and stylistically Steve Hackett's departure was the real dividing line.

I never knew the backstory of what happened with the various line-ups of Genesis. The things you learn here. Slightly off-topic but I was curious to learn more about the departing Steve Hackett you mention. Wondered whatever happened to him? I was surprised to see that he has put out a boatload of solo material since leaving Genesis. We are talking 19 solo albums with the most recent, "Beyond the Shrouded Horizon" in 2011. Wow, guy must be pretty good to have that prolific of a solo catalog! That doesn't even include Live albums/compliations etc. The only other lead guitarist that I can think of that tops that solo output is Neil Young. Anyway, very interesting to read, thanks for the post.

[Nutrocker]

I never knew the backstory of what happened with the various line-ups of Genesis. The things you learn here. Slightly off-topic but I was curious to learn more about the departing Steve Hackett you mention. Wondered whatever happened to him? I was surprised to see that he has put out a boatload of solo material since leaving Genesis. We are talking 19 solo albums with the most recent, "Beyond the Shrouded Horizon" in 2011. Wow, guy must be pretty good to have that prolific of a solo catalog! That doesn't even include Live albums/compliations etc. The only other lead guitarist that I can think of that tops that solo output is Neil Young. Anyway, very interesting to read, thanks for the post.

It's funny to think that in 2012, Steve Hackett -who left the band thirty five years ago- is the only person who is still regularly performing Genesis material. Stuff like "Firth Of Fifth", "Blood On The Rooftops", "Watcher Of The Skies", "Los Endos" and "Fly On A Windshield" are mainstays of his concert setlists. If you get the chance, Steve's live gigs are worth checking out (easy to find on the usual torrent sites or in YouTube clips). His solo albums are indeed excellent, to the point where his first, Voyage Of The Acolyte, is considered the greatest album Genesis never made (Rutherford and Collins are the rhythm section throughout).

As for background on Genesis themselves, try to get yer hands on the book "Genesis: Chapter And Verse"- basically the Genesis version of The Beatles' "Anthology" book (in other words, the band's story told in their own words.) They don't pull any punches whatsoever...the section on Gabriel and Hackett's departures are particularly revealing.

[the chase]

One of my all time favorite albums is peter gabriel 3 (melt)

I remember exactly where I was the first time I heard it..

There is not a single cymbal played on the entire album... I still love it.

NO SELF CONTROL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNm5BKivCw&feature=player_detailpage

PG 4 (Security) is pretty incredible as well.

Passion like reswati said is just beautiful... He should do more of this.

I saw Gabriel live twice. Once in around 83 when "Plays Live" was released and on the So tour in 87 (?)

I kind of lost touch after Us.. I agree he started to repeat himself.

On PG3 and Security, he was breaking new ground.

From here (PG3) I went back and got more into Genesis.

The first album I really got into was Genesis Live..

Watcher of The Skies

Get em out by Friday

Supper's Ready..

Coolest Live album cover... Gabriel playing just a Bass drum with that giant triangle on his head ..

I love all eras of Genesis.. except the Ray Wilson album, Calling All Stations..

The very 1st album is also hard to get into. It's good but they sound like The Bee Gee's

Every album by them has something incredible..

Even their most commercial albums like Genesis has Home By The Sea...

Invisible Touch has the album version of Tonight tonight tonight..

No Son Of Mine wipes me out.. rips my heart out.

I saw them live in 84'. They had by far the greatest light show I have ever seen. They were great.

Check out the footage of "When In Rome" when they played in front of 1/2 a million people in 2008..

I had the pleasure of seeing Phil Collins shut up and play the Drums on the Principle Of Moments tour.

I remember him playing Pledge Pin like it was yesterday.

It's such a shame that Phil's back is so bad now.. He was such a great drummer.

I'd love to see the classic 5 pc lineup reunite.. But with Phil's back problems, it probably won't happen.

Edited June 14, 2012 by the chase

[joe (Liverpool)]

Jonothan King would agree with you, when he introduced them to the music world he called them a Bee Gees pastiche, I agree their first album was hard listening at first, and flopped, probably as King said ....being called From Genesis to Revelation, it was put with all the religious albums. I personally think that "Suppers Ready" is the best Genesis track made.

[Nutrocker]

I personally think that "Suppers Ready" is the best Genesis track made.

Peter Gabriel would probably agree with you. "Supper's Ready" is their crowning achievement IMO.

PG attended a handful of Genesis concerts after he left the band (even performing "I Know What I Like" with them in New York in '78) and he was not impressed with Phil's delivery of "Supper's Ready"...Peter felt Collins didn't seem to be taking the song seriously. I'd tend to agree. Phil's wannabe comedian approach to the old tunes and 'stories' really seemed to cheapen the whole thing. I could listen to Peter ramble for hours...Phil Collins, you just wish he would shut the fuck up and get on with the next song...

[joe (Liverpool)]

I also like Gabriels singing on The Musical Box, if my memory serves me right I heard Collins doing it live whilst I was in my Bother in laws house and he fucked it up as his voice isn't powerful enough

[Nutrocker]

Supper is indeed an epic with some good ideas, but it's all a bit cobbled together for my liking.

Things like The Musical Box, Dancing With The Moonlit Knight or Firth Of Fifth are superior constructions, IMO.

...And Tony Banks would agree with you as far as the cobbling goes, though only the "Willow Farm" section of "Supper's Ready" was actually tacked on to Gabriel's original composition ("Supper's Ready" was of course written after Peter and his wife had a decidedly supernatural experience at home one night). And Tony Banks also stated that musically "Supper's Ready" was a direct progression from "The Musical Box". It is also only fair to mention that all the above tunes you mentioned are Banks/Rutherford compositions...

It is strange to think that when Banks/Collins/Rutherford were writing Duke, they conceived the piece performed live as "The Duke Suite" (Behind The Lines>Duchess>Guide Vocal>Turn It On Again>Duke's Travels>Duke's End) as an epic along the lines of "Supper's Ready"...and decided to break it up on the album when they realized it actually paled in comparison to "Supper's Ready"

[Nutrocker]

Well I didn't know any of that thanks, apart from the supernatural bit. Has he ever elaborated? Were they just tripping their nuts off?

Peter made it perfectly clear that he and his wife were 100% straight and sober when the "Supper's Ready" incident took place. IIRC his missus was sick as a dog and started hallucinating in delirium or something like that.

I was fortunate to catch them at their one-off reformation at Milton Keynes (in 82 I think). That was pretty cool, although I was disappointed that they didn't play a full version of Knight, my fav song of theirs.

You lucky bastard! That is one of the concerts I would have given my left nut to attend. The band themselves weren't crazy about the performance, apparently, but based on the recordings it wasn't that bad. Peter sounds like he slipped back into the role of 'Genesis Frontman' like an old pair of slippers.

[The Pagemeister]

After Peter Gabriel - Phil Collins is a better vocalist with much more power.

Peter Gabriel is ok, but he always sings like he's half asleep.

http://youtu.be/Uw3eNLAMciI

[Nutrocker]

After Peter Gabriel - Phil Collins is a better vocalist with much more power.

Peter Gabriel is ok, but he always sings like he's half asleep.

What always struck me about Peter Gabriel's voice is how he sounded like an old man when he was in his twenties

And I was equally struck by how 'tentative' sounding Phil Collins was on the first few Genesis albums he sang lead on; it almost seems like it took until around Duke, if not Abacab for him to fully find his confidence as a lead vocalist. Then it seems like he almost as quickly got overconfident and decided he sounded best shouting every line...too much power IMO.