ScarletMacaw Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 (edited) I know there's an interest among some on this forum concerning the "occult" or magic....I've wondered why people still use this term. The dictionary definitions of magic are several, but mostly seem to focus on the "supernatural" which, by definition, does not exist. However, many aspects of "magical" (or magickal) practice in fact exist in other fields including my own of psychotherapy as well as in religious practice: 1. Casting spells. Hypnosis, EMDR, meditation--all induce trance states during which people are susceptible to suggestions that can change their emotions and behavior. Is not this the same as casting a spell? 2. Possession: The branch of psychoanalytic theory known as Object Relations holds that people carry internal representations of important people in their lives and that these internal representations become part of the personality. In fact one of the goals sometimes is that the patient will internalize the therapist. Religious faith and perhaps even fandom, including Led Zeppelin fandom, involve idealization and identification, and may also create new internal objects. 3. Exorcism: Getting rid of inner "demons" or more specifically, the bad internal objects, is what a lot of psychotherapy is about. 4. Rituals and incantations: Aspects of many religious practices. Slogans/Serenity Prayer of 12-step groups. Sports fandom is full of rituals. Rituals and incantations can induce altered states of consciousness, better self-esteem through new identifications, etc. None of this is supernatural but in fact a natural capability of humans. Why is it that we mystify what is totally natural? Perhaps some people want to believe that there is something out there that can't be understood or explained...probably there is, such as why the universe exists, but human behavior and events on this earth are totally explicable. There is nothing supernatural about them. Edited June 6, 2013 by ScarletMacaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagesbow Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Why is it that we mystify what is totally natural? Perhaps some people want to believe that there is something out there that can't be understood or explained...probably there is, such as why the universe exists, but human behavior and events on this earth are totally explicable. There is nothing supernatural about them. It's a genetic hang over from how our ancestors dealt with a world they had no way of comprehending and in many ways, as much as we think we are sooooo advanced, our brains our still pretty much wired exactly how they were a hundred thousand years ago; it's hard to shake off our primitive proclivities to irrational thought. We are also hard wired to see patterns and people often ascribe meaning to these patterns. EVERYTHING that has been purported as being supernatural has never stood up to the scientific method and has been found to have a natural explanation. Incidentally, if anyone feels they have evidence of the supernatural feel free to claim your 1 million dollars here (less my 10 percent:P) http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html Mount Olympus was the home of the Gods, when man finally reached the top did we find Gods? of course not. Then God was in the sky and now he has been pushed back to outside of time space. People will always believe in superstitious crap and that is their right to; it all stems from the fear of death and so it will always be. Sure, there could be something out there, there could be a china teapot spinning around the sun. I'm happy to be proven wrong as I have no emotional investment to either a natural or supernatural explanation to things. Personally, I just feel there isn't a "why" (as to why the universe exists) it just does. If everyone in the world took a more rational evidence based view; then I think the world would be a lot safer place. Many people may disagree but they will be arguing from such fallacies as appeals to emotion and to widely held values (ad populum). Many will of had "personal experiences" of the supernatural or God (whichever God it is they believe in) many have been taken aboard a spacecraft in the middle of the night, some were Napoleon in a previous lifetime. Who do we choose to believe and by what measure? all, or none? Most people are rational and logical in their day to day lives, yet they have their one belief that they choose to not apply logic or rational to. For example: The police detective who deals with what he or she can prove in their everyday life, yet for their God they forgo any proof and rational. To me that seems intellectually dishonest. I'm sure there are many genuine people who believe they saw something (supernatural) but I always go back to the Carl Sagan quote that: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kipper Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 is this a serious topic? i was once posessed by mcdonalds chicken mcnuggets, but now im free of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagesbow Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 So, Scarlet, you given up on this thread already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletMacaw Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 So, Scarlet, you given up on this thread already? Well, I agreed with everything you said... I thought more people would be interested in this topic....I've found at least one other psychotherapist here, several people who believe in "magic/magick" and needless to say we are all Led Zeppelin fans...yet no one else had comments? I thought we all had a lot of fun with the thread the bogus poster pretending to be a Christian started...but maybe people are afraid of us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagesbow Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 Well, I agreed with everything you said... I thought more people would be interested in this topic....I've found at least one other psychotherapist here, several people who believe in "magic/magick" and needless to say we are all Led Zeppelin fans...yet no one else had comments? I thought we all had a lot of fun with the thread the bogus poster pretending to be a Christian started...but maybe people are afraid of us... I was only teasing...It's not your fault, I also though this thread would provoke more of a discussion. Actually I was certain it would after I had a spooky premonition that this thread would get 15 replies, to double check, I read the tea leaves and went to a tarot card reader. So I don't know what happened? Ya, I didn't catch the bogus poster pretending to be a christian....but maybe people are afraid of logic and reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Gibson Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I know there's an interest among some on this forum concerning the "occult" or magic....I've wondered why people still use this term. The dictionary definitions of magic are several, but mostly seem to focus on the "supernatural" which, by definition, does not exist. However, many aspects of "magical" (or magickal) practice in fact exist in other fields including my own of psychotherapy as well as in religious practice: 1. Casting spells. Hypnosis, EMDR, meditation--all induce trance states during which people are susceptible to suggestions that can change their emotions and behavior. Is not this the same as casting a spell? 2. Possession: The branch of psychoanalytic theory known as Object Relations holds that people carry internal representations of important people in their lives and that these internal representations become part of the personality. In fact one of the goals sometimes is that the patient will internalize the therapist. Religious faith and perhaps even fandom, including Led Zeppelin fandom, involve idealization and identification, and may also create new internal objects. 3. Exorcism: Getting rid of inner "demons" or more specifically, the bad internal objects, is what a lot of psychotherapy is about. 4. Rituals and incantations: Aspects of many religious practices. Slogans/Serenity Prayer of 12-step groups. Sports fandom is full of rituals. Rituals and incantations can induce altered states of consciousness, better self-esteem through new identifications, etc. None of this is supernatural but in fact a natural capability of humans. Why is it that we mystify what is totally natural? Perhaps some people want to believe that there is something out there that can't be understood or explained...probably there is, such as why the universe exists, but human behavior and events on this earth are totally explicable. There is nothing supernatural about them. I think that the powerhouse religions were the root of this. People who were involved in practices that were not accepted by these religions (for whatever reasons) were forced to hide their involvement, ergo the word “occult.” This was despite the fact that many of these practices were acceptable in some religions (voodoo) and are, in some ways, the roots of some medical practices of today (herbal and complementary medicine, cupping, and acupuncture). Since many of these religions operate by instilling fear in their followers, they typically associated unaccepted practices with devil-worship or being a witch. Salem, MA was a perfect example. How many law-abiding and religious people were executed simply based on the ranting of a bunch of teenage girls? Although scientifically-based, medicine and nursing typically avoided or downplayed practices that were "unnatural" or not scientifically-based. I have seen nursing becoming more open to less scientific practices in recent years. I see more with aromatherapy, music therapy, meditation, and complementary or alternative medicines/herbal therapy. There has also been an increased focus on “cultural awareness” and acceptance/incorporation of religious and culturally-based rituals and therapies into traditional medical practice. There is scientific evidence now to support the effectiveness of various things that are still considered by some to be unacceptable. I know some physicians and nurses who will have no part in some things based on their own religious beliefs and misgivings. It still seems to be fear-based and is difficult for some people to separate from because it has been planted in their minds for so long. I was raised Catholic (but no longer practicing) and I can say that they really know how to instill fear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagesbow Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I think that the powerhouse religions were the root of this. People who were involved in practices that were not accepted by these religions (for whatever reasons) were forced to hide their involvement, ergo the word “occult.” This was despite the fact that many of these practices were acceptable in some religions (voodoo) and are, in some ways, the roots of some medical practices of today (herbal and complementary medicine, cupping, and acupuncture). Since many of these religions operate by instilling fear in their followers, they typically associated unaccepted practices with devil-worship or being a witch. Salem, MA was a perfect example. How many law-abiding and religious people were executed simply based on the ranting of a bunch of teenage girls? This is true, but the flip side of that is Christianity became a truly global religion because it realised that by allowing people to incorporate their pre-existing rituals into a Christian context made it easier to convert people. Obvious examples of this are in the early Christians who wanted to convert pagans; thus the pagan traditions of easter and christmas were amalgamated into Christianity. Obviously, devil-worship couldn't be incorporated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Although scientifically-based, medicine and nursing typically avoided or downplayed practices that were "unnatural" or not scientifically-based. I have seen nursing becoming more open to less scientific practices in recent years. I see more with aromatherapy, music therapy, meditation, and complementary or alternative medicines/herbal therapy. There has also been an increased focus on “cultural awareness” and acceptance/incorporation of religious and culturally-based rituals and therapies into traditional medical practice. There is scientific evidence now to support the effectiveness of various things that are still considered by some to be unacceptable. I know some physicians and nurses who will have no part in some things based on their own religious beliefs and misgivings. It still seems to be fear-based and is difficult for some people to separate from because it has been planted in their minds for so long. I was raised Catholic (but no longer practicing) and I can say that they really know how to instill fear! Really I'd say what your argueing agenst there though is not "science" but scientists potentially being closed minded. In this case I think what your seeing is the sciences of medicine and physcology coming together more closely now its become clearly that physical and mental well being are linked together. I do not view religious superstition being treated as fact as a positive though, there maybe value in humouring peoples beliefs in things like aromatherapy as a placebo but its clearly been shown that besides this it does not have any medical benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletMacaw Posted June 10, 2013 Author Share Posted June 10, 2013 I'm not sure about a scientific basis for aromatherapy, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is one. Meditation and acupuncture have been shown to have therapeutic value. All of these things affect the senses. Music therapy is now widely used in treatment for psychiatric patients and developmentally disabled people. I've noticed that some past medical practices, such as blood-letting, although not really a good treatment, obviously had the temporary effect of reducing blood pressure and cholesterol...yet today is referred to as a barbaric and ignorant practice by doctors who forget that 100 years ago there were no statin drugs. At the same time these very same doctors prescribe drugs willy-nilly that can have severe and even disabling or fatal side effects, without much concern.. Over the weekend the movie "The Exorcist" was on...I'd forgotten that the mother went looking for an exorcist because psychiatrists told here there was nothing they could do and exorcism helps people because of the power of suggestion, if they believe they are possessed by a demon...in fact about 10 years ago I went to a lecture by a sociologist who'd published a book about exorcism, which he said was on the increase; his conclusion was that the subjects felt better afterward...most probably because the ritual uses the power of suggestion and in addition, it's someone paying attention to them and taking them seriously. Sometimes this is all a person needs to feel better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Gibson Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 Really I'd say what your argueing agenst there though is not "science" but scientists potentially being closed minded. In this case I think what your seeing is the sciences of medicine and physcology coming together more closely now its become clearly that physical and mental well being are linked together. I do not view religious superstition being treated as fact as a positive though, there maybe value in humouring peoples beliefs in things like aromatherapy as a placebo but its clearly been shown that besides this it does not have any medical benefit. I wouldn't agree that I am arguing against science, since it will always be the basis of the nursing and medical professions. I am supporting the integration of practices that were once considered taboo because some religions associated them with witches or Satan-worshippers. And, yes, also the close-mindedness of scientists. However, it is more than the coming together of medicine and psychology, as this has been achieved some time ago. There is an element of learning to accept that one person's taboo practice is another person's healing force. Feelings such as pain, anxiety, and agitation are subjective and cannot be accurately measured by the medical practitioner, but only by the person feeling. Thus the medical practitioner must be open to the fact that, just because something is subjective, does not mean it does not exist. And just because a practice is considered "unnatural" or "magic" by some does not mean that it is not effective in managing the person's subjective symptoms. There is most definitely scientific evidence supporting the use of aromatherapy for management of anxiety, agitation associated with Alzheimer's disease, and as an adjunct treatment in the management of chronic pain. One such article comes to mind from the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry, a reputable medical journal, that found significant improvement in behaviors in patients with severe dementia during a double-blinded clinical trial - the aromatherapy produced both statistically and clinically significant results over the placebo. I have worked with elderly patients with dementia for well over 20 years and have seen first-hand the benefits of aromatherapy and music therapy in management of agitation, anxiety, and combative behaviors. It certainly was not a matter of humoring their beliefs in the therapy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenman Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 (edited) Ah sorry, was mixing it up with Homeopathy. My point was that your not dealing with a black and white situation, some areas that were considered "magic" clearly do have no value beyond that people place in them, others do and we need to be careful which we give legitimancey to in terms of linking into mainstream healthcare. Genrally I'd say those considered more overtly "magical" do I'd say have a greater tendancey to also be nonsense. Edited June 10, 2013 by greenman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) I believe the human mind, and the power of the will, are complex and powerful. With that in mind, I have the following question: When some people claim to have seen ghosts and/or demons, or claim to have been in a well-lit room which suddenly went dark after a ritual or incantation was performed, what is really happening? (I should mention that I have spoken to people -- credible people -- who claim to have had such experiences.) Are these people simply hallucinating and/or mentally projecting into their environments? Or are these things occurring objectively in the environment itself? Or both? Thoughts anyone? Edited July 23, 2014 by Pagefan55 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lipslikecherries Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 I believe the human mind, and the power of the will, are complex and powerful. With that in mind, I have the following question: When some people claim to have seen ghosts and/or demons, or claim to have been in a well-lit room which suddenly went dark after a ritual or incantation was performed, what is really happening? (I should mention that I have spoken to people -- credible people -- who claim to have had such experiences.) Are these people simply hallucinating and/or mentally projecting into their environments? Or are these things occurring objectively in the environment itself? Or both? Thoughts anyone?I don't know, I've never been involved in a ritual... but I have picked up negative vibes before, once. I was in a trace like state listening to music and I felt an icky presence over my shoulder. I felt like it was watching me. It gave me the creeps. I have reason to believe it was real. Someone was visiting at my house, I think she brought that ick with her but I really am not sure. Maybe some people are capable of picking up/connecting with things that others aren't? The mind is a powerful thing like you said. I don't doubt it's capabilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maaike Roeleveld Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 (edited) Ah sorry, was mixing it up with Homeopathy. My point was that your not dealing with a black and white situation, some areas that were considered "magic" clearly do have no value beyond that people place in them, others do and we need to be careful which we give legitimancey to in terms of linking into mainstream healthcare. Genrally I'd say those considered more overtly "magical" do I'd say have a greater tendancey to also be nonsense. I too believe the human mind is capable of a lot (maybe a lot more than we realize......). I have never been involved in any ritual, but I once had an experience a "hypersensitive person" could have. I have friends and they play in a Bruce Springsteen tribute band and some years ago I was supposed to go and the see them play an afternoon gig at a Bruce Springsteen fan-event. Somehow, just before I left to go to that gig I suddenly felt the strong need to check again, if the gig wasn't cancelled. It was not cancelled so I went, hoping to have good afternoon. But...., sure enough, about half way through the gig, the lead-singer gets a phonecall about his dad having been rushed to the hospital with a heartattack. Sadly the next day his dad had passed away...... It felt really strange and a bit frightening, as if I really knew something bad was going to happen that day....... You know folks, speaking of religion and spirituality, I find that people these days may not go to church every sunday anymore, but they do take things from many different forms of spiritualily. People take bits from Bhuddism, witchcraft and other forms of spirituality, they just take what suits them. Anyone else, who sees this happening? Maaike Edited July 23, 2014 by Maaike Roeleveld Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted July 23, 2014 Share Posted July 23, 2014 Yes, Maaike, I see it happening, perhaps slightly more in Europe than in the States. Lipslikecherries, you're certainly not alone with your experience. I have reason to believe that such things are real as well. As you said, "maybe some people are capable of picking up/connecting with things that others aren't? The mind is a powerful thing...I don't doubt it's capabilities." Determining the divide (if there is one) between the subjective and objective aspects of such experiences interests me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lipslikecherries Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 I too believe the human mind is capable of a lot (maybe a lot more than we realize......). I have never been involved in any ritual, but I once had an experience a "hypersensitive person" could have. I have friends and they play in a Bruce Springsteen tribute band and some years ago I was supposed to go and the see them play an afternoon gig at a Bruce Springsteen fan-event. Somehow, just before I left to go to that gig I suddenly felt the strong need to check again, if the gig wasn't cancelled. It was not cancelled so I went, hoping to have good afternoon. But...., sure enough, about half way through the gig, the lead-singer gets a phonecall about his dad having been rushed to the hospital with a heartattack. Sadly the next day his dad had passed away...... It felt really strange and a bit frightening, as if I really knew something bad was going to happen that day....... You know folks, speaking of religion and spirituality, I find that people these days may not go to church every sunday anymore, but they do take things from many different forms of spiritualily. People take bits from Bhuddism, witchcraft and other forms of spirituality, they just take what suits them. Anyone else, who sees this happening? MaaikeThat is a really interesting (and sad) story, thanks for sharing it Maaike. I have had experiences where I'll think of someone I haven't heard from in a while and come home to find a note from them on the door or see them out in a random place. I think this happens to everyone though. Thinking about it it doesn't seem like just a coincidence because I think of them out of the blue. One strange thing that happens sometimes is I'll be sleeping and wake up the moment someone sends me a text message or something even though my phone was silent. Does that happen to you or anyone else ever? I'm not sure about your religious question. I probably would agree with what you're saying because I don't think any religion has all the right answers to living with the pain, suffering and evil of the world we live in today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pagefan55 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 That is a really interesting (and sad) story, thanks for sharing it Maaike. I have had experiences where I'll think of someone I haven't heard from in a while and come home to find a note from them on the door or see them out in a random place. I think this happens to everyone though. Thinking about it it doesn't seem like just a coincidence because I think of them out of the blue. One strange thing that happens sometimes is I'll be sleeping and wake up the moment someone sends me a text message or something even though my phone was silent. Does that happen to you or anyone else ever? I'm not sure about your religious question. I probably would agree with what you're saying because I don't think any religion has all the right answers to living with the pain, suffering and evil of the world we live in today. There is a school of thought which maintains that most people have a latent ESP capability, but that most of us either won't or can't tap into it further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 Yes, Maaike, I see it happening, perhaps slightly more in Europe than in the States. Lipslikecherries, you're certainly not alone with your experience. I have reason to believe that such things are real as well. As you said, "maybe some people are capable of picking up/connecting with things that others aren't? The mind is a powerful thing...I don't doubt it's capabilities." Determining the divide (if there is one) between the subjective and objective aspects of such experiences interests me. That is a really interesting (and sad) story, thanks for sharing it Maaike. I have had experiences where I'll think of someone I haven't heard from in a while and come home to find a note from them on the door or see them out in a random place. I think this happens to everyone though. Thinking about it it doesn't seem like just a coincidence because I think of them out of the blue. One strange thing that happens sometimes is I'll be sleeping and wake up the moment someone sends me a text message or something even though my phone was silent. Does that happen to you or anyone else ever? I'm not sure about your religious question. I probably would agree with what you're saying because I don't think any religion has all the right answers to living with the pain, suffering and evil of the world we live in today. you two should check out Graham Hancock ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletMacaw Posted July 26, 2014 Author Share Posted July 26, 2014 I see the "music, religion and psychotherapy" aspects of my original post have been lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I see the "music, religion and psychotherapy" aspects of my original post have been lost. sorry if that bothers you - it wasn't intentional on my part. Sometimes threads evolve like this .... anyway, it's all interesting stuff IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bong-Man Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 I just read thru this thread and now my head hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lipslikecherries Posted August 1, 2014 Share Posted August 1, 2014 Someone said something about ghosts? A friend showed this to me today. There is a strange reflection on the refrigerator door and then items fall off the shelf on their own? Thoughts anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apantherfrommd Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 (edited) I know there's an interest among some on this forum concerning the "occult" or magic....I've wondered why people still use this term. The dictionary definitions of magic are several, but mostly seem to focus on the "supernatural" which, by definition, does not exist. However, many aspects of "magical" (or magickal) practice in fact exist in other fields including my own of psychotherapy as well as in religious practice: Why is it that we mystify what is totally natural? Perhaps some people want to believe that there is something out there that can't be understood or explained...probably there is, such as why the universe exists, but human behavior and events on this earth are totally explicable. There is nothing supernatural about them. Hi Scarlet Macaw, How's by you? I mean no disrespect to your thread, and I wish there were more posts on it. Without getting into what is in my DNA and what I've witnessed and can attest to, I bring you a filed documented report filed within your field of expertise (out of respect for your thread. Please give a listen to what this psychologist as well as a social worker and an RN signed off on. It's filed as a legal report. over 800 pages of details. Maybe you would have more access to this report in your field. I don't know. But based on your analysis, how would you classify the children's behavior here. Please give the links a read or a watch, as I've only presented a piece of what's in them. I know Fox news isn't your favorite, nor mine. Neither is the USA Today as presented in one of the links. Nor the Indiana Star, the NY Post that have also posted this. But I take what it presents as worthy of a more research.Psychologist and DCS Social Worker and a registered nurse signed off in their legal report that boy walked up the wall backwards Click here for link. Campbell said she ran into her bedroom, where her then-12-year-old granddaughter and a friend were staying. Ammons and Campbell said the 12-year-old was levitating above the bed, unconscious. The 7-year-old stared into his brother's eyes and began to growl again. "It's time to die," the boy said in a deep, unnatural voice. "I will kill you." While the youngest boy spoke, the older brother started head-butting Campbell in the stomach. Campbell grabbed her grandson's hands and started praying. (The Indianapolis Star) What happened next would rattle the witnesses, and to some it would offer not only evidence but proof of paranormal activity. According to Washington's original DCS report— an account corroborated by Walker, the nurse — the 9-year-old had a "weird grin" and walked backward up a wall to the ceiling. He then flipped over Campbell, landing on his feet. He never let go of his grandmother's hand. "He walked up the wall, flipped over her and stood there," Walker told The Star. "There's no way he could've done that." It happens and it's very real. It dosen't care if you believe in it or not. It believes in you The sky is filled with good and bad.- 'Battle of Evermore' Edited November 25, 2014 by apantherfrommd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletMacaw Posted November 25, 2014 Author Share Posted November 25, 2014 "Demonic possession" is usually multiple personalities. Delusional Disorder is very common and people can share delusions, especially family members and other close groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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