New Album

[AllisonAdler]

From the American Heritage dictionary:

1.Of or relating to metaphysics.

2.Based on speculative or abstract reasoning.

3.Highly abstract or theoretical; abstruse.

4.Immaterial; incorporeal. See Synonyms at immaterial.

Supernatural

a lot of Zeppelin's music sounds like this to me.

Just so.

[GetTheLedOut]

So you disagree with most of western philosophy then? Ok...

I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to some metaphysical Zeppelin music? I'd very much like to hear it.

[GetTheLedOut]

From the American Heritage dictionary:

1.Of or relating to metaphysics.

2.Based on speculative or abstract reasoning.

3.Highly abstract or theoretical; abstruse.

4.Immaterial; incorporeal. See Synonyms at immaterial.

Supernatural

a lot of Zeppelin's music sounds like this to me. I don't always understand the metaphysical part of the music but I love and accept it.

There's nothing metaphysical about Zeppelin or any other rock band. I know they've had this kind of hyperbole poured upon them, but this a complete misuse of the word metaphysical. There's nothing supernatural about them or any other artist. They are what they are, which is a damn good rock and roll band. By no means is that demeaning to them, but to say they are supernatural or metaphysical is analogous to believing in Santa Claus. Now aren't we a little too old for that boys?

[AllisonAdler]

I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to some metaphysical Zeppelin music. I'd very much like to hear it.

I fully expect to get some smart-arse response in return, but, in no particular order:

Achilles Last Stand

In the Light

The Rain Song

Ten Years Gone

SIBLY

Dazed and Confused

Black Mountain Side/White Summer

Tangerine

I'm Gonna Crawl

Immigrant Song

Bron-Yr-Aur

Going to California

Thank You

The Rover

Four Sticks

No Quarter

The Song Remains the Same

Down by the Seaside

Friends

When the Levee Breaks

Kashmir

All My Love

In the Evening

Poor Tom

Travelling Riverside Blues

Black Dog

Communication Breakdown

IMTOD

BIGLY

The Battle of Evermore

Ramble On

STH

That's the Way

Tea for One

The Lemon Song

You Shook Me

I Can't Quit You Baby

How Many More Times

Your Time is Gonna Come

Trampled Underfoot

For Your Life

Nobody's Fault But Mine

It might've been a lot easier to direct you to tracks that are not particularly metaphysical (mostly the ones that are meant to be tongue in cheek). Furthermore, I'm not sure you understand the words metaphysical and magic(k). Also, there are tracks above that are metaphysically charged because of the lyrical and/or musical argument they make (Battle of Evermore, for e.g.), and others that are so because of the actual power of the musical experience itself (Black Dog, Levee), and of course, many that are both (TYG).

[GetTheLedOut]

Achilles Last Stand

In the Light

The Rain Song

Ten Years Gone

SIBLY

Dazed and Confused

Black Mountain Side/White Summer

Tangerine

I'm Gonna Crawl

Immigrant Song

Bron-Yr-Aur

Going to California

Thank You

The Rover

Four Sticks

No Quarter

The Song Remains the Same

Down by the Seaside

Friends

When the Levee Breaks

Kashmir

All My Love

In the Evening

Poor Tom

Travelling Riverside Blues

IMTOD

BIGLY

The Battle of Evermore

Ramble On

STH

That's the Way

Tea for One

The Lemon Song

I Can't Quit You Baby

It might've been a lot easier to direct you to tracks that are not particularly metaphysical. Furthermore, I'm not sure you understand the words metaphysical and magic(k).

Oh I'm sorry, those are quite physical. In fact there's nothing abnormal about them. This debate thing doesn't seem to be going your way but at least you have good taste.

I fully expect to get some smart-arse response in return

Well it's easy when you're right.

[AllisonAdler]

Oh I'm sorry, those are quite physical. In fact there's nothing abnormal about them. This debate thing doesn't seem to be going your way but at least you have good taste.

Well it's easy when you're right.

Now it is all the more clear that you have no idea what the word metaphysical means. Abnormal is definitely NOT a synonym. Are you at university at all there in Chicago (quite a good one in town...)? You might want to check it out if not. Or read some books.

[GetTheLedOut]

Now it is all the more clear that you have no idea what the word metaphysical means. Abnormal is definitely NOT a synonym.

I never said it was, I just said they are neither metaphysical nor abnormal. See this is called extending the statement. I make a statement, in this case that the songs are not metaphysical then I extend it by saying they are also not abnormal. Simple concept, they teach it in grade school (where judging from your commentary you currently reside). You're really stretching for insult material.

Are you at university at all there in Chicago (quite a good one in town...)? You might want to check it out if not. Or read some books.

No, I go to the University of Iowa, since you inquired.

[AllisonAdler]

I never said it was, I just said they are neither metaphysical nor abnormal. See this is called extending the statement. I make a statement, in this case that the songs are not metaphysical then I extend it by saying they are also not abnormal. Simple concept, they teach it in grade school (where judging from your commentary you currently reside). You're really stretching for insult material.

No, I go to the University of Iowa, since you inquired.

I wasn't trying to be insulting. And actually, I teach at a university (and have done for the past 15 years). Apparently with some success. Go figure.

[GetTheLedOut]

I wasn't trying to be insulting. And actually, I teach at a university (and have done for the past 15 years). Apparently with some success. Go figure.

What's your subject?

[AllisonAdler]

What's your subject?

19th and 20thC British culture.

[GetTheLedOut]

19th and 20thC British culture.

Ah, an interesting subject. Perhaps this would be a better arena for us.

[AllisonAdler]

Ah, an interesting subject. Perhaps this would be a better arena for us.

Very well then.

[GetTheLedOut]

Very well then.

You'll receive a PM shortly as I'm sure others won't care to read it.

[SIBLY]

I'm not into any new age metaphysical bullshit but I do think something extraordinary happened from the first time they played together. Swapping to one of their sons doesn't seem to have changed much either. I'd put that down to being extremely compatable rather than anything supernautural.

I don't find anything that they've recorded since the split to be essential or any where near as good as LZ. P & P excluded JPJ & JB because it was meant to be very definately not LZ.

I'm not sure they'd be able to pull off an album that lives up to the back catalogue. It couldn't be LZ without riffs and lots of them but RP would be pulling in a diferent direction. ITTOD which was really RP & JPJ album was only partially successful for me.

My worry about them trying to record an album before they toured would be that they'd fail and the tour would never happen. A year on the road getting to know each other musically again would only assist them if they did an album afterwards.

[DBJ]

I think there is nothing to worry about in terms of it being good. If you look at all the solo albums that have com out before, the one thing that is missing is each other.

Imagine Pictures at Eleven with some of the riffs and Guitar work from Death With II.

Imagine some of the songs Page wrote with the Firm mixed with Crackback and Robert.

Imagine Coverdale Page With Plant and JPJ and Bonham.

Imagine WIC mixed with zooma and Thunderchief.

I'm sure they could easily come up with something that is as good a Led Zeppelin.

The question is can they come up with a single album that is equal to the entire sum of all that came before it. Which would be the wrong way to measure their success.

[IGG]

I'm sorry, but could you please direct me to some metaphysical Zeppelin music? I'd very much like to hear it.

Point and click.

Music itself is not metaphysical, but the subject matters contained therein are more often than not derived from philosophy.

You above all should know this, Pete Townsend is one of the more avid soul-searchers in music. To state that none of the work Pete has done is metaphysical in nature, including of course his writings with The Who would be inaccurate at best.

[GetTheLedOut]

Point and click.

Music itself is not metaphysical, but the subject matters contained therein are more often than not derived from philosophy.

You above all should know this, Pete Townsend is one of the more avid soul-searchers in music. To state that none of the work Pete has done is metaphysical in nature, including of course his writings with The Who would be inaccurate at best.

Well perhaps we're splitting hairs here. I don't think that soul-searching lyrics make something metaphysical music, however I understand what you're saying and it's true even if we describe it in different terms.

[Cactus]

I'm not into any new age metaphysical bullshit but I do think something extraordinary happened from the first time they played together. Swapping to one of their sons doesn't seem to have changed much either. I'd put that down to being extremely compatable rather than anything supernautural.

Page recently commented for almost the first time on his 'magick' life. He ventured to say that part of his conception of what magick is to be the idea that 4 people with their own separate energies gather together in a room and produce music of a 5th, much greater and different energy. The process of the interaction of people's energies to create something new is 'magick'.

You can look at it any way you choose, 'compatability' in magick terms is a good interaction of energy, and people have misunderstood what 'magick' is, it's not necessarily a supernatural force but instead a 'spiritual' way of understanding human interaction????

[AllisonAdler]

Page recently commented for almost the first time on his 'magick' life. He ventured to say that part of his conception of what magick is to be the idea that 4 people with their own separate energies gather together in a room and produce music of a 5th, much greater and different energy. The process of the interaction of people's energies to create something new is 'magick'.

You can look at it any way you choose, 'compatability' in magick terms is a good interaction of energy, and people have misunderstood what 'magick' is, it's not necessarily a supernatural force but instead a 'spiritual' way of understanding human interaction????

Yes, you're quite right to think about this in spiritual terms, just as IGG is right to bring up philosophy as I tried to do earlier. Also, cactus, I think what we're dealing with here is an unwillingness to grant what magic(k), metaphysical, and even supernatural mean precisely as terms. The minute you mention any of these, many people, as they have here, quite wrongly jump to the conclusion that one means something 'hocus-pocus-y', when in fact what one is trying to reach for with these words are things that are spiritually-engaged (and engaging) or psychically-willed (psychically as in psyche), and/or beyond the physical, and/or above or beyond 'natural' experience.

To doubt that there are things beyond the material world is to be a vulgar materialist (someone who, for e.g., believes that all human emotions are reducible to physical/chemical reactions), which I doubt most of us are. So of course music is metaphysical--everyone from Plato onward would agree with such a simple statement of fact; this doesn't mean that it involves witchcraft, ghosts, Santa Claus, Harry Potter, or what have you, but that it appeals on the basis of something other than pure physical sensation. We don't just listen to music because it it pleasing to our ears! Like poetry, we appreciate music and other forms of art because they all mean something to us metaphysically (and an informed, educated person wouldn't find this terminology quibble-worthy; it's pretty standard), or as some here have put it, because they speak to our soul or psyche or spirit.

Anyway, I've tried to be as precise as I can and have also added this to the list of songs I posted earlier: there are tracks above that are metaphysically charged because of the lyrical and/or musical argument they make (Battle of Evermore, for e.g.), and others that are so because of the actual power of the musical experience itself (Black Dog, Levee)(cactus' "compatibility" works here, too, and also synergy), and of course, many that are both (TYG).

[GetTheLedOut]

Yes, you're quite right to think about this in spiritual terms, just as IGG is right to bring up philosophy as I tried to do earlier. Also, cactus, I think what we're dealing with here is an unwillingness to grant what magic(k), metaphysical, and even supernatural mean precisely as terms. The minute you mention any of these, many people, as they have here, quite wrongly jump to the conclusion that one means something 'hocus-pocus-y', when in fact what one is trying to reach for with these words are things that are spiritually-engaged (and engaging) or psychically-willed (psychically as in psyche), and/or beyond the physical, and/or above or beyond 'natural' experience.

Well there's a spiritual aspect perhaps, but I disagree that it's a strong force as you believe, and it certainly isn't metaphysical. Difference of opinion.

To doubt that there are things beyond the material world is to be a vulgar materialist (someone who, for e.g., believes that all human emotions are reducible to physical/chemical reactions), which I doubt most of us are.

Why is it vulgar materialism to not believe there there are supernatural forces? You make it seem like a dark thing.

So of course music is metaphysical--everyone from Plato onward would agree with such a simple statement of fact

This still isn't true no matter how many times you say it. And I doubt Plato would agree regardless. I haven't seen any work of his that addressed music as metaphysical. So until you can provide evidence or resurrect him, stop name dropping.

this doesn't mean that it involves witchcraft, ghosts, Santa Claus, Harry Potter, or what have you, but that it appeals on the basis of something other than pure physical sensation. We don't just listen to music because it it pleasing to our ears!

We don't? That's why I listen to it.

Like poetry, we appreciate music and other forms of art because they all mean something to us metaphysically (and an informed, educated person wouldn't find this terminology quibble-worthy; it's pretty standard), or as some here have put it, because they speak to our soul or psyche or spirit.

Ha, how subtle... so I'm "uneducated" because I don't subscribe to your misuse of the word? Bullshit. It's the uneducated person who thinks they can warp all terminology beyond their definitions to prove a point. Music is not metaphysical.

Anyway, I've tried to be as precise as I can and have also added this to the list of songs I posted earlier: there are tracks above that are metaphysically charged because of the lyrical and/or musical argument they make (Battle of Evermore, for e.g.), and others that are so because of the actual power of the musical experience itself (Black Dog, Levee)(cactus' "compatibility" works here, too, and also synergy), and of course, many that are both (TYG).

Keep on smoking the pipe my friend.

[fortunata811]

I apologize in advance if there is a post length limit that I breaking with the following.

The members of Led Zeppelin were and are talented as individuals and, had this not been the case, they would not have been capable of achieving the level of creativity and greatness which they did.

However, I don’t think it can be denied that the group has an energy that did indeed make the whole greater than the sum of its parts. Call it by some otherworldly term if you prefer but synergy is what makes many great teams great - whether it be a musical group, a baseball team or business organizations. It’s why many athletes train together – because they draw on that combined energy to push themselves harder and further than they would go on their own. The lack of synergy is also why you can put together a team of the greatest scientific minds available and end up with a blank whiteboard instead of a greater understanding of the universe.

I’m sure many of us have collaborated with people with whom we have found our abilities to achieve and create heightened. After decades of hearing both the members of Led Zeppelin and their fans describe it in many different terms, I don’t think it can be denied that they had this as a group and it, as much as their individual talents, allowed them to create in a way together that would not have been possible with other equally talented artists.

That the existence of this type of synergy in a group is so often a matter of chance may be what leads to it being described in more melodramatic terms. After all, while music is an aural art, for many it is a very emotional experience as well. When watching videos of their performances, I do find myself inspired to use terms such as “magic” to describe the way that the energies of the individuals merge, both musically and physically. I can easily understand others describing it in more transcendent terms.

As for the original topic of this post, I would love to see what they could create together now. According to many of the interviews, they seem to have found that connection again, with Jason this time around. Perhaps they are all in the right creative place again at the right time. There is no guarantee that it will be at the level of their early work but there is just as much chance that it will. To say that they shouldn’t try because of the risk to the Led Zeppelin legacy is selfish on our part. They are first and foremost artists and need to be allowed to create. IMO to want them to tour but not to create new material is hypocritical as well as selfish. Are we going to ask that they cancel the tour if we find that the shows detract from our memories of the 70’s shows? If you read the interviews where they have been willing to entertain questions about a reunion, it is often the pressure of living up to the Led Zeppelin legacy and the expectations of their fans that has made them resistant. There are those that will continue to cheer them regardless but I’m sure they feel the pressure of those who are so entrenched in the Led Zeppelin “mythology” that they find anything less than a 70’s rock god performance blasphemous (yes, I realize that hyperbolic but it makes my point).

Whatever they choose to do, I will always be grateful for the music they have shared with me and allowed me to share with others and I look forward to what comes next for them, individually or together. I will be waiting patiently for it – and determining just how much I should be squirreling away in case they do play MSG. A girl can still dream

On the topic of Plato, I haven’t studied much of his work but he had a good deal to say on the arts so I’m sure there are many works of his in regards to music. I am a bit more familiar with Schopenhauer – a Plato-ist in several regards– who said much on the metaphysics of music which some might find interesting based on previous discussions in this thread.

[zooma]

Very well said.

[AllisonAdler]

Yes, very well said, indeed, fortunata (and cool sn!).

I wasn't really talking to you, btw, GTLO, just trying to clarify something that's important to me (and furthermore, I've pretty much given up on your taking anything I say seriously). As for Plato, I've read The Republic, Timaeus, Critias, Ion, The Statesman, The Sophist, and The Symposium, as well as a selection of Pythagoras' work and Plotinus' Enneads. Just to suggest how common my statements are, even the briefest google search (Plato + music) produces the following(from someone's philosophy course):

"Plato was much impressed with the theories of Pythagoras, and his number mysticism. Early thinking about geometric ratios was partly inspired by noticing the series of overtones connected with the vibration of a string. A string, when plucked, vibrates along its whole length, but also in halves, giving the octave, and in other divisions which give the fifth, the third, and the rest of the overtone series. These are the bell-like higher tones string players produce when they play "harmonics". Plato thought that the right sort of music would help to set the soul in harmony rather than discord. But that meant excluding certain musical modes from the Republic, and keeping only those that were conducive to a properly ordered soul, i.e., one whose will ruled its passions at the direction of its reason. Only when young people were ready should the strength of their character be tested by exposing them to depictions of evil, and to the more promiscuous modes of music.)"

Furthermore, some direct quotations (a good deal of relevant material is from The Republic, 376e to 403e, but there are other spots as well):

What is the education?...It is of course gymnastic for bodies and music for the soul.

Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything.

Music is the movement of sound to reach the soul for the education of its virtue.

p.s. a nice, standard def. of metaphysical, courtesy of Wikipedia. You'll find I haven't "warped it."

Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science, traditionally, cosmology and ontology. It is also concerned with explaining the ultimate nature of being and the world.[1] Its name derives from the Greek words (metá) (meaning "after") and (physiká) (meaning "physics"), "physics" referring to those works on matter by Aristotle in antiquity. The prefix meta- ("after") simply meant the chapters in Aristotle's work that physically followed after the chapter "physics". Aristotle called them "first philosophy". Over time, the meaning of "meta" has shifted to mean "beyond; over; transcending" in English. Therefore, metaphysics is also the study of that which transcends physics.

p.p.s. if one believes that there is something called spirituality, doesn't one implicitly believe in that which is beyond the physical...?

[kirchzep27]

I think -page and -jones have been making/writing alot of music over the years. Plant has clearly been on the ball with his music, especially lately. If there is ever new music, ofcourse us fans would love to hear it...but it is the elements of what music can be in the above posts that is important. Led Zep knew that from the blues...that one could be transported, transcended somewhere else.

After the show for -ahmet ertegun, its like all they may have taken for granted in 1980, was being represented in a way. I see this as a life affirming experience as a fan. Ofcourse us fans know they could make some great music today.

[AllisonAdler]

I think -page and -jones have been making/writing alot of music over the years. Plant has clearly been on the ball with his music, especially lately. If there is ever new music, ofcourse us fans would love to hear it...but it is the elements of what music can be in the above posts that is important. Led Zep knew that from the blues...that one could be transported, transcended somewhere else.

After the show for -ahmet ertegun, its like all they may have taken for granted in 1980, was being represented in a way. I see this as a life affirming experience as a fan. Ofcourse us fans know they could make some great music today.

Absolutely!