To Leave A Tip or Not to Leave a Tip

[kipper]

On 4/7/2019 at 9:42 PM, PeaceFrogYum said:

Who is anyone to say what jobs are most important or the people working certain jobs are either greater or less than? As long  the work is honest, regardless of job, it is just as important and the person just as valuable as any other job. No one is better than another and no one should be referred to as "retarded" if they are working an honest job. Of course certain jobs should demand greater pay due to skill involved but EVERYONE deserves a living wage, everyone.

Who is to say?  Well that's easy, in a free market people get paid according to the value of their work and competition for their skills. Which is why a worker at McDonalds doesn't deserve $15 dollars per hour--- unless of course you can't find a million people willing to work for that amount and then the MARKET drives the price of that labor up.

Sorry, but nobody "deserves" anything---not even their next breath if it means someone else has to pay for it. 

No offense Peace Frog, I really like you, but the notion of "deserves" sounds like how a two year old would look at the world; that they demand and deserve---and are more important than the needs of anyone else around them.  But yes we do care for two year olds--- or anyone else old or you who cannot care for themselves. But for able bodied adults we owe them noting, especially not what they ought to be able to achieve on their own for themselves.  Because as soon as you attached "deserves" onto something, then all I hear is you saying that someone else deserves less, be they the owner of the business or the shareholders who have invested into a enterprise.

Do you subscribe to socialism, or is it more of a charity thing to want to give to others from the pockets of people?

Edited April 10, 2019 by kipper

[PeaceFrogYum]

3 hours ago, kipper said:

Who is to say?  Well that's easy, in a free market people get paid according to the value of their work and competition for their skills. Which is why a worker at McDonalds doesn't deserve $15 dollars per hour--- unless of course you can't find a million people willing to work for that amount and then the MARKET drives the price of that labor up.

Sorry, but nobody "deserves" anything---not even their next breath if it means someone else has to pay for it. 

No offense Peace Frog, I really like you, but the notion of "deserves" sounds like how a two year old would look at the world; that they demand and deserve---and are more important than the needs of anyone else around them.  But yes we do care for two year olds--- or anyone else old or you who cannot care for themselves. But for able bodied adults we owe them noting, especially not what they ought to be able to achieve on their own for themselves.  Because as soon as you attached "deserves" onto something, then all I hear is you saying that someone else deserves less, be they the owner of the business or the shareholders who have invested into a enterprise.

Do you subscribe to socialism, or is it more of a charity thing to want to give to others from the pockets of people?

Your argument is undermined by the inequities inherent in any society, its basic human behavior. You cannot say "achieve on their own" when the playing field is considerably different depending on the circumstance of birth. According to recent stats, a person born into poverty only has a 6% chance of making it into the middle class. Is that because they are lazy, stupid, apathetic? Nope, its because the wealthy and powerful have stacked the deck against any and all not within their social sphere. Only regulation can level an uneven playing field, the question is not whether regulation is necessary, its who is doing the regulating.

[rm2551]

Regulation when designed right - to ensure there are established boundaries that should not be crossed - increases the health of a free market economy. Stripping away useless regulation can be constructive, but a lot of "freeing up blah from red tape and regulation!" is bullshit to let a vested interests or groups to profit more or get away with more with fewer safeguards.

Socialism. Just like every other "ism". In its purest form, useless. Just like capitalism, liberalism, communism, catholocism, etc, etc. All useless doctrines when no flexibility/adaption is allowed/applied.

[SteveAJones]

10 hours ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

According to recent stats, a person born into poverty only has a 6% chance of making it into the middle class. 

The logical fallacy presented here is called an appeal to authority..."according to recent stats"... 🙄 

If we're talking about America, one really needs to do only three things to make it into the middle class: finish high school, get a job and don't have children outside of marriage.

[kipper]

On 4/10/2019 at 8:05 PM, PeaceFrogYum said:

Your argument is undermined by the inequities inherent in any society, its basic human behavior. You cannot say "achieve on their own" when the playing field is considerably different depending on the circumstance of birth. According to recent stats, a person born into poverty only has a 6% chance of making it into the middle class. Is that because they are lazy, stupid, apathetic? Nope, its because the wealthy and powerful have stacked the deck against any and all not within their social sphere. Only regulation can level an uneven playing field, the question is not whether regulation is necessary, its who is doing the regulating.

I would say that lazy, stupid and  apathetic are probably good reasons, stupid taking the top billing.  As Steve Jones said above, finish high school, don't get pregnant/get anyone pregnant, and get a job. Plus I would add to learn the value of delayed gratification and don't go into credit card debt. I see young people with $1000 cell phones and cable TV packages driving leased cars complaining how they will never be able to have half of what their parents have attained.... so basically back to your original comment... they are stupid.

Blaming rich people is just a form of infantile jealousy. There is no stacked deck, half of America doesn't even pay income taxes and gets most of what they have off the backs of taxpayers most whom are not rich either.

[Stryder1978]

9 hours ago, kipper said:

I would say that lazy, stupid and  apathetic are probably good reasons, stupid taking the top billing.  As Steve Jones said above, finish high school, don't get pregnant/get anyone pregnant, and get a job. Plus I would add to learn the value of delayed gratification and don't go into credit card debt. I see young people with $1000 cell phones and cable TV packages driving leased cars complaining how they will never be able to have half of what their parents have attained.... so basically back to your original comment... they are stupid.

Blaming rich people is just a form of infantile jealousy. There is no stacked deck, half of America doesn't even pay income taxes and gets most of what they have off the backs of taxpayers most whom are not rich either.

[rm2551]

20 hours ago, kipper said:

There is no stacked deck, half of America doesn't even pay income taxes and gets most of what they have off the backs of taxpayers most whom are not rich either.

So the extremely wealthy pay a fair share of tax in the US? cmon mate. Fair suck of the sauce bottle.

Set up your wealth in such a way that you end up paying virtually no tax - taking advantage of those politicians who were generous enough to write into law a system designed to shield a certain level of family wealth from the tax man? Yeah, that sound much more accurate. At least here. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-13/one-third-of-australian-companies-paid-no-tax-ato/10614916

There is a stacked deck so ridiculous it's laughable. I do not believe the US has a more equitable system than we have. No chance.

[Walter]

1 hour ago, rm2551 said:

I do not believe the US has a more equitable system than we have. No chance.

Make America Great Again - which refers to the 1950’s...back when there was an equitable system to where you could just get a job and be in the middle class.  Or the 1850’s when people were still enslaved.  Pick which one they are referring too - or both.

[kipper]

On 4/8/2019 at 2:10 PM, the chase said:

Try not tipping and go back to the same place.. It's probably not quite as dangerous as mouthing off to the kid taking your order in a Fast Food Drive Thru... but I wouldn't recommend it. 

It's part of the deal.... at least in The States. If you're spending 50 bucks on dinner, is it really that big a deal to give them 60?  I don't think it is. 

Most waiters waitresses are excellent at places I go to, refills without asking, extra bread.. etc.. They sometimes have to put up with my Mother In Law..  They deserve a tip.

Bartenders get a buck a drink... or if it's $3.50 they're getting $5. not a big deal.   

 

^^^ Exactly!

 This is why I always like people from the granite state. A state full of people with common sense pragmatism

I may be moving to NH eventually, I've always liked the idea of "live free or.die".

 

~Kipper

[kipper]

1 hour ago, Walter said:

Make America Great Again - which refers to the 1950’s...back when there was an equitable system to where you could just get a job and be in the middle class.  Or the 1850’s when people were still enslaved.  Pick which one they are referring too - or both.

You mean the decade of the 1950s, the one after winning a world war and coming out of the depression with Americans of all races working at levels not seen in a generation before?  The 1950s where the USA became the preeminent world power, an economic power house not only the envy of the whole world but bringing every other nation up to---even a couple we had utterly defeated.

You think Western Europe or South and Central America would have been as great as we were in the '50s?  You should show some more pride Walter, aferall you are an American who has benefited from our greatness too. Like they say, "a rising tide lifts all boats...." and it did---- and STILL does.

1850s...LOL!  Wow, that is going back really far!

You think slavery was invented in America? Although it had been debated strongly from the very beginning, half of the county was never for it--- eventually we solved the problem with a little thing called "THE CIVIL WAR" I think you can read about it in these things called 'books" ROTFLMAO!  Yeah a civil war. We fixed that horrible problem in-house, no outside nation came in and did it for us--- WE fixed it.

Walter, Walter, Walter.... what ever am I to do with you my little ray of sunshine state friend?

 

~Kip

Edited April 13, 2019 by kipper

[gibsonfan159]

Some real political/economical experts on this forum. 99% rhetorical, echo-chamber material.

[kipper]

3 hours ago, rm2551 said:

So the extremely wealthy pay a fair share of tax in the US? cmon mate. Fair suck of the sauce bottle.

Set up your wealth in such a way that you end up paying virtually no tax - taking advantage of those politicians who were generous enough to write into law a system designed to shield a certain level of family wealth from the tax man? Yeah, that sound much more accurate. At least here. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-13/one-third-of-australian-companies-paid-no-tax-ato/10614916

There is a stacked deck so ridiculous it's laughable. I do not believe the US has a more equitable system than we have. No chance.

There is no stacked deck against anyone smart enough not sit on their own hands--- or on the sidelines.  Not sure if you all down in OZ use this saying or not, but here we like to say... "you snooze you loose".

g'day mate!

~Kip

2 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Some real political/economical experts on this forum. 99% rhetorical, echo-chamber material.

this amused me....

 

~Kip

[gibsonfan159]

27 minutes ago, kipper said:

 

this amused me....

 

~Kip

Amused you how? Do you have a degree in economics or sociology? If not, you're purely talking out your arse. Everyone here is. It's opinionated BS with no coherent substantiality whatsoever.

[kipper]

2 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Amused you how? Do you have a degree in economics or sociology? If not, you're purely talking out your arse. Everyone here is. It's opinionated BS with no coherent substantiality whatsoever.

You know what they call a doctor that flunks out of medical school?

A dentist.

 

“Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.”
― Rene Descartes

 

 

~natch

[gibsonfan159]

I remember reading an excerpt a while back that summed up the core issue in most economies. Someone asked an economical analytics expert if it was possible for everyone in the US to be a billionaire. They of course answered "No, only a small percentage would be systematically able to attain such wealth". Then they were asked if everyone in the US could be a millionaire. Same answer, only it was slightly more attainable. What about everyone in the US making six figures?! Again, the mathematics proved that only a certain percentage could attain that lifestyle. It finally wittles down to "Can everyone who works afford the cost of living anywhere in the US?" When the numbers were crunched, depending on where they lived and the population, the answer was no. There simply aren't enough high paying jobs. Welfare was the bottom line option. So if everyone works and contributes to society, we still have a significant percentage of people depending on welfare. Is this the worker's fault or the employer's? Or the government's? Who's to blame? Or is this the natural situation for our current economy? We accuse people who make small earnings of not moving up in society as they should, but someone else simply replaces them in their low wage job because that's the only option they have. Why do we blame the workers for low wages?

[gibsonfan159]

15 minutes ago, kipper said:

You know what they call a doctor that flunks out of medical school?

A dentist.

 

“Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.”
― Rene Descartes

 

 

~natch

An attempt at a witty retort to undermine the obvious. Sums up the political ramblings on here perfectly. Eighth grade debate team material.

[kipper]

7 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

An attempt at a witty retort to undermine the obvious. Sums up the political ramblings on here perfectly. Eighth grade debate team material.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law....

 

You want debate, remember to dial 1 before 9-1-1

 

[the chase]

4 hours ago, kipper said:

^^^ Exactly!

 This is why I always like people from the granite state. A state full of people with common sense pragmatism

I may be moving to NH eventually, I've always liked the idea of "live free or.die".

 

~Kipper

Thanks.. I never considered it being a New Hampshire thing though. 

[SteveAJones]

12 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Do you have a degree in economics or sociology? If not, you're purely talking out your arse. Everyone here is. It's opinionated BS with no coherent substantiality whatsoever.

Really? I have an MBA, does that not count? It does in the real world.

 

12 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

I remember reading an excerpt a while back that summed up the core issue in most economies. Someone asked an economical analytics expert if it was possible for everyone in the US to be a billionaire. They of course answered "No, only a small percentage would be systematically able to attain such wealth". Then they were asked if everyone in the US could be a millionaire. Same answer, only it was slightly more attainable. What about everyone in the US making six figures?! Again, the mathematics proved that only a certain percentage could attain that lifestyle. It finally wittles down to "Can everyone who works afford the cost of living anywhere in the US?" When the numbers were crunched, depending on where they lived and the population, the answer was no. There simply aren't enough high paying jobs. Welfare was the bottom line option. So if everyone works and contributes to society, we still have a significant percentage of people depending on welfare. Is this the worker's fault or the employer's? Or the government's? Who's to blame? Or is this the natural situation for our current economy? We accuse people who make small earnings of not moving up in society as they should, but someone else simply replaces them in their low wage job because that's the only option they have. Why do we blame the workers for low wages?

That economics analyst is merely speaking theoretically. You should read more about how free market economies actually operate. I haven't accused any low wage earners of being dead weight, nor do I blame workers for low wages. That's because low wage earners are not dead weight, nor do workers set wages in a free market economy. However, I have called out all the dead weight parasites who take from the system and contribute nothing in return.    

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by SteveAJones

[rm2551]

9 hours ago, Walter said:

Make America Great Again - which refers to the 1950’s...back when there was an equitable system to where you could just get a job and be in the middle class.  Or the 1850’s when people were still enslaved.  Pick which one they are referring too - or both.

The 1950's while in desperate need of some enlightenment, had a few redeeming qualities that people rightly miss. A single decent paying job (middle class) could get a family started (buy a home and enough disposable income to start producing kids) without the missus having to also work a professional job. Aaaaaaah that must have been SO GOOD. Nowadays people are working at well paying professional jobs and struggling with insane mortgages. I moved interstate due to housing prices, not everyone has that luxury. Yep, 1950 had at least some advantages now lost.

8 hours ago, kipper said:

There is no stacked deck against anyone smart enough not sit on their own hands--- or on the sidelines.  Not sure if you all down in OZ use this saying or not, but here we like to say... "you snooze you loose".

^Circumstance and chance beg to differ. You can get dealt a great hand or a catastrophic hand in life. Sometimes the deck is stacked (either way) just because it is - no matter how smart/stupid you are. But once you acquire enough personal wealth, you then play by rules designed to protect your wealth. You still need to be very careful, but you have opportunity to structure your finances so your money makes money and you pay fuck all tax. That, is a stacked deck. Tax avoidance I'm saying. I'm not opening up a debate about tax rates and who contributes what to the pie - just those who specifically should but don't due to the stacked deck that is by design.

Yes, we have the saying. Again, sometimes it is people getting blindsided by illness/crime/natural disaster/etc. that negates snoozing.

8 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Some real political/economical experts on this forum. 99% rhetorical, echo-chamber material.

The echo chamber (bubble) phenomena is off the hook now. I like reading opposing views within limits (there tends to be some trolling even in here) as it is interesting to understand other views while not agreeing with them. Typing these words on this keyboard is the big feeder of the bubble issue. If we were all to get together at a pub and discuss things in person, everyone can/will still disagree, but in person conversations are the insulation against bubbles. Face to face there is a bit more tolerance and flexibility due to the much fuller form of communication. This next generation better start re-learning what it really means to socialise again.

[PeaceFrogYum]

On 4/12/2019 at 8:48 PM, gibsonfan159 said:

Amused you how? Do you have a degree in economics or sociology? If not, you're purely talking out your arse. Everyone here is. It's opinionated BS with no coherent substantiality whatsoever.

My arse concurs

[kipper]

3 minutes ago, PeaceFrogYum said:

My arse concurs

Do not seek the treasure

[Walter]

On 4/13/2019 at 7:45 AM, rm2551 said:

The 1950's while in desperate need of some enlightenment, had a few redeeming qualities that people rightly miss. A single decent paying job (middle class) could get a family started (buy a home and enough disposable income to start producing kids) without the missus having to also work a professional job. Aaaaaaah that must have been SO GOOD. Nowadays people are working at well paying professional jobs and struggling with insane mortgages. I moved interstate due to housing prices, not everyone has that luxury. Yep, 1950 had at least some advantages now lost.

I’m just speaking in terms that people think things were great back over a half a century ago are revisionists who only want the American Dream narrative to still be alive, without all that went along with it....much higher tax rates on the wealthy being a huge part of it.  Over half of the top 500 companies in America pay 0% taxes.  Meanwhile most of the middle in America are paying more than they have in recent years.  That’s the reality. Unemployment is low in part to the fact that 1. It was already steadily declining over the past decade and has continued at a slower, yet similar, rate and 2. Many people are having to take on second and third jobs to make ends meet due to costs rising on every level - especially housing.  The Citizens United ruling in the Supreme Court has made it open season for corporations and foreign entities to influence American politics like never before and is in a nut shell why we’re in many of the issues we are currently in now. Fact. Most are just too self-serving, having delusions of grandeur, or are too stupid to even know what the people they are choosing to represent them are doing to them and against them.  After reading the responses on here, I hope you’re getting a clearer picture of the mindset over here and why your assertion, that America is a world power that is now falling like many before it, is happening. Greed, ignorance, and corruption.  Let them eat cake...

[kipper]

3 hours ago, Walter said:

I’m just speaking in terms that people think things were great back over a half a century ago are revisionists who only want the American Dream narrative to still be alive, without all that went along with it....much higher tax rates on the wealthy being a huge part of it.  Over half of the top 500 companies in America pay 0% taxes.  Meanwhile most of the middle in America are paying more than they have in recent years.  That’s the reality. Unemployment is low in part to the fact that 1. It was already steadily declining over the past decade and has continued at a slower, yet similar, rate and 2. Many people are having to take on second and third jobs to make ends meet due to costs rising on every level - especially housing.  The Citizens United ruling in the Supreme Court has made it open season for corporations and foreign entities to influence American politics like never before and is in a nut shell why we’re in many of the issues we are currently in now. Fact. Most are just too self-serving, having delusions of grandeur, or are too stupid to even know what the people they are choosing to represent them are doing to them and against them.  After reading the responses on here, I hope you’re getting a clearer picture of the mindset over here and why your assertion, that America is a world power that is now falling like many before it, is happening. Greed, ignorance, and corruption.  Let them eat cake...

You seem to be doing okay Wally; "coo"l car, nice house in near the glades, and enough spare change to get the premium football package on TV.

What went wrong? Did you rob a bank---- or maybe just show up to work and do what normal people do?

Not sure why you would be complaining.... seems weird to me.

[rm2551]

8 hours ago, Walter said:

I’m just speaking in terms that people think things were great back over a half a century ago are revisionists who only want the American Dream narrative to still be alive, without all that went along with it....much higher tax rates on the wealthy being a huge part of it.  Over half of the top 500 companies in America pay 0% taxes.  Meanwhile most of the middle in America are paying more than they have in recent years.  That’s the reality. Unemployment is low in part to the fact that 1. It was already steadily declining over the past decade and has continued at a slower, yet similar, rate and 2. Many people are having to take on second and third jobs to make ends meet due to costs rising on every level - especially housing.  The Citizens United ruling in the Supreme Court has made it open season for corporations and foreign entities to influence American politics like never before and is in a nut shell why we’re in many of the issues we are currently in now. Fact. Most are just too self-serving, having delusions of grandeur, or are too stupid to even know what the people they are choosing to represent them are doing to them and against them.  After reading the responses on here, I hope you’re getting a clearer picture of the mindset over here and why your assertion, that America is a world power that is now falling like many before it, is happening. Greed, ignorance, and corruption.  Let them eat cake...

100% agree.