tmtomh Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, slave to zep said: You are confusing pollution with climate change. Pollution = man made Climate change = solar No, you are either ill-informed; in possession of plenty of information but unwilling to believe it; or well-informed but using unusual definitions. Pollution is definitely human-made. Climate change is a very broad term and includes both natural and human-made causes. Now, if your definitions are meant as a tautology - in other words, if you are saying that any change in the ecological/climatic characteristics of our environment that is caused by humans is, by definition, pollution, then to that I would say two things: 1. Well, okay, but because that's such an unusual way to define things, it obscures more than it reveals, since the vast majority of people you would present these terms to - including (to the best of my knowledge) climate scientists - would not share your understanding, and therefore you could not have an intelligible conversation unless you explicitly clarified from the outset that this was how you were defining your terms. 2. If something like CO2 emissions from manufacturing is to be considered a factor of pollution and not "climate change," then it's a distinction without a difference because the pollution the CO2 emissions create has a measurable impact on the climate. So you are either denying a human role in climate change, or you are saying that human-cause climate change should all be categorized as a form of pollution, in opposition to the concept of climate change. If you'd like to clarify which it is (or I suppose if it's both) that you are claiming, that'd be great. Edited August 29, 2022 by tmtomh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 16 hours ago, slave to zep said: Dunno how you work that out 🤣 These fake vaccines have NOT stopped transmission and have NOT stopped infection and HAVE caused death and irreparable harm to the population of vaxxed. Child deaths are up, miscarriage is up, mortality rates per 100,00 are lower in unvaxxed. And "Doctors " scratch their heads and can't work out why, and introduce a new disease S.A.D.S. sudden adult death syndrome. You must be kidding. No you must be kidding. Calling them "fake vaccines" immediately disqualifies your argument, for two reasons: 1. It's the rhetorical fallacy of begging the question: you call them fake, when the entire question is whether or not they are fake. 2. More importantly, they simply are not fake. Their function in the human body is well-documented and they absolutely, positively are vaccines. COVID mortality rates are not lower in unvaxxed people than in vaxxed people. That's simply untrue. Vaccines were not developed to stop all transmission. They were developed to reduce the risk of serious illness and death, which they most certainly have done. Deaths, ICU admissions, and hospital admissions have been and remain far lower among vaccinated people than unvaccinated people, and similar patterns hold true for vaccinated and boosted versus vaccinated versus partially vaccinated. The Omicron variants are the most contagious and have the greatest immune escape of any variant so far (interestingly, while Delta was the most contagious previously, it was actually Beta that had the greatest immune escape capability, but it was not significantly more contagious than alpha or gamma so it did not become a dominant strain - but it was the variant that Pfizer/BionNTech used for their first modified booster candidate, before Omicron came along and changed their plans). So it is not surprising that the vaccines provide less protection against infection of any kind with Omicron - and it is doubly unsurprising that this should be the case given that Omicron came along 6-8 months after most folks had gotten vaccinated, meaning their antibody levels had decreased by then. But the vaccines still provide very good protection against severe illness and death, which is confirmed by the statistics. Conspiracy mongering and adding 2+2 together to get 9 is silly - and it's particularly silly when one chooses that path while claiming that proper science shouldn't be believed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 1 hour ago, tmtomh said: No you must be kidding. Calling them "fake vaccines" immediately disqualifies your argument, for two reasons: 1. It's the rhetorical fallacy of begging the question: you call them fake, when the entire question is whether or not they are fake. 2. More importantly, they simply are not fake. Their function in the human body is well-documented and they absolutely, positively are vaccines. COVID mortality rates are not lower in unvaxxed people than in vaxxed people. That's simply untrue. Vaccines were not developed to stop all transmission. They were developed to reduce the risk of serious illness and death, which they most certainly have done. Deaths, ICU admissions, and hospital admissions have been and remain far lower among vaccinated people than unvaccinated people, and similar patterns hold true for vaccinated and boosted versus vaccinated versus partially vaccinated. The Omicron variants are the most contagious and have the greatest immune escape of any variant so far (interestingly, while Delta was the most contagious previously, it was actually Beta that had the greatest immune escape capability, but it was not significantly more contagious than alpha or gamma so it did not become a dominant strain - but it was the variant that Pfizer/BionNTech used for their first modified booster candidate, before Omicron came along and changed their plans). So it is not surprising that the vaccines provide less protection against infection of any kind with Omicron - and it is doubly unsurprising that this should be the case given that Omicron came along 6-8 months after most folks had gotten vaccinated, meaning their antibody levels had decreased by then. But the vaccines still provide very good protection against severe illness and death, which is confirmed by the statistics. Conspiracy mongering and adding 2+2 together to get 9 is silly - and it's particularly silly when one chooses that path while claiming that proper science shouldn't be believed. this is from the National Library of Medicine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stryder1978 Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 2 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: Wait till they start blaming trump for the vax!! They all wanted it, they didn't care how they got it but it'll be trumps fault like he made the vax himself. Truer words were never spoken.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custard pie man Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 35 minutes ago, hummingbird69 said: this is from the National Library of Medicine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/ very sobering indeed , reminds me of a book I once read Power , Mystery, and the Hammer of the Greeds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 1 hour ago, hummingbird69 said: this is from the National Library of Medicine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/ Tommy won't have a bar of it, he's too hypnotised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 3 hours ago, tmtomh said: No, you are either ill-informed; in possession of plenty of information but unwilling to believe it; or well-informed but using unusual definitions. Pollution is definitely human-made. Climate change is a very broad term and includes both natural and human-made causes. Now, if your definitions are meant as a tautology - in other words, if you are saying that any change in the ecological/climatic characteristics of our environment that is caused by humans is, by definition, pollution, then to that I would say two things: 1. Well, okay, but because that's such an unusual way to define things, it obscures more than it reveals, since the vast majority of people you would present these terms to - including (to the best of my knowledge) climate scientists - would not share your understanding, and therefore you could not have an intelligible conversation unless you explicitly clarified from the outset that this was how you were defining your terms. 2. If something like CO2 emissions from manufacturing is to be considered a factor of pollution and not "climate change," then it's a distinction without a difference because the pollution the CO2 emissions create has a measurable impact on the climate. So you are either denying a human role in climate change, or you are saying that human-cause climate change should all be categorized as a form of pollution, in opposition to the concept of climate change. If you'd like to clarify which it is (or I suppose if it's both) that you are claiming, that'd be great. All I'm saying is humans make pollution which has little effect on our climate. The sun cycles determine our cycles. CO2 is the gas of life . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 7 hours ago, tmtomh said: I have, and I will. Well, that explains your avatar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Exhaustive study of German mortality data finds excess deaths tightly correlated with mass vaccination (eugyppius.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 CDC Emails: Our Definition of Vaccine is "Problematic" (substack.com) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOsbourne Posted August 29, 2022 Share Posted August 29, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 3 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said: Well, that explains your avatar. Yes, that comment is consistent with your level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 9 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: this is from the National Library of Medicine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9062939/ No, it's from the lunatic Russell Blaylock. This is why I have refrained from linking to sources in this discussion - I will cite sources, you will say they're from a corrupt/untrustworthy establishment; you will cite sources, I will say they're not credible. Of course my view is that the evidence is on my side, but you think the same thing. So it'd be endless back and forth and endless regress. It's the underlying disease of our time - we are not really arguing about opinions; we are arguing about what the facts are and the basic character of reality, and from that it is is hard to see how any consensus can be reached, or even any basis for rational or productive disagreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, tmtomh said: No, it's from the lunatic Russell Blaylock. This is why I have refrained from linking to sources in this discussion - I will cite sources, you will say they're from a corrupt/untrustworthy establishment; you will cite sources, I will say they're not credible. Of course my view is that the evidence is on my side, but you think the same thing. So it'd be endless back and forth and endless regress. It's the underlying disease of our time - we are not really arguing about opinions; we are arguing about what the facts are and the basic character of reality, and from that it is is hard to see how any consensus can be reached, or even any basis for rational or productive disagreement. here's some basic reality from the people who are telling you what to think, basic character of reality my ass. Edited August 30, 2022 by hummingbird69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: here's some basic reality from the people who are telling you what to think, basic character of reality my ass. It's amazing how fear and anger makes people stupider. Edited August 30, 2022 by tmtomh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, tmtomh said: It's amazing how fear and anger makes people stupider. yes, the answer all lefties go to when they have nothing to come back with. The same people who are doing everything they can to bend reality to their wanting are the ones telling you men can get pregnant, the laptop was fake, and trump is a racist fascist dictator and anyone who wants him for president is a white supremist. If you want to follow them be my guest, but don't expect me to follow you off that cliff. The vax was rushed period. That is a fact. The amount of time normally taken to make sure a vaccine is safe and truly effective did not happen. Vaccines normally take anywhere from 5, 10 or more years of development and testing before they reach the public. There have been NO long range studies done on this vax and there have been way too many side effects and complications. Normally if a vax causes any reactions it's pulled immediately. Not with this one. If you want to believe in fauci go ahead and make yourself feel safe. The fact is this vax is not as good as they say it is. If you want to take it go ahead and take it, but with all the people screaming about the side effects of Hydroxychloroquine, a perfectly safe and effective medicine you'd think they might be worried about a vax that IS causing myocarditis and blood clots. Rare events or not if you want to take the vax that's your choice just as it is my choice not to take it. You can poo poo anything you want because it's not from your sources but there are real doctors out there who feel different and that doesnt automatically make them right or wrong but there is a difference in opinion. this is from june. This is from a British news org. https://observer.ug/news/headlines/73983-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-stir-rage Edited August 30, 2022 by hummingbird69 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
custard pie man Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 3 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: yes, the answer all lefties go to when they have nothing to come back with. The same people who are doing everything they can to bend reality to their wanting are the ones telling you men can get pregnant, the laptop was fake, and trump is a racist fascist dictator and anyone who wants him for president is a white supremist. If you want to follow them be my guest, but don't expect me to follow you off that cliff. The vax was rushed period. That is a fact. The amount of time normally taken to make sure a vaccine is safe and truly effective did not happen. Vaccines normally take anywhere from 5, 10 or more years of development and testing before they reach the public. There have been NO long range studies done on this vax and there have been way too many side effects and complications. Normally if a vax causes any reactions it's pulled immediately. Not with this one. If you want to believe in fauci go ahead and make yourself feel safe. The fact is this vax is not as good as they say it is. If you want to take it go ahead and take it, but with all the people screaming about the side effects of Hydroxychloroquine, a perfectly safe and effective medicine you'd think they might be worried about a vax that IS causing myocarditis and blood clots. Rare events or not if you want to take the vax that's your choice just as it is my choice not to take it. You can poo poo anything you want because it's not from your sources but there are real doctors out there who feel different and that doesnt automatically make them right or wrong but there is a difference in opinion. this is from june. This is from a British news org. https://observer.ug/news/headlines/73983-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-stir-rage you won't see that picked up by wide stream media Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 5 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: yes, the answer all lefties go to when they have nothing to come back with. The same people who are doing everything they can to bend reality to their wanting are the ones telling you men can get pregnant, the laptop was fake, and trump is a racist fascist dictator and anyone who wants him for president is a white supremist. If you want to follow them be my guest, but don't expect me to follow you off that cliff. The vax was rushed period. That is a fact. The amount of time normally taken to make sure a vaccine is safe and truly effective did not happen. Vaccines normally take anywhere from 5, 10 or more years of development and testing before they reach the public. There have been NO long range studies done on this vax and there have been way too many side effects and complications. Normally if a vax causes any reactions it's pulled immediately. Not with this one. If you want to believe in fauci go ahead and make yourself feel safe. The fact is this vax is not as good as they say it is. If you want to take it go ahead and take it, but with all the people screaming about the side effects of Hydroxychloroquine, a perfectly safe and effective medicine you'd think they might be worried about a vax that IS causing myocarditis and blood clots. Rare events or not if you want to take the vax that's your choice just as it is my choice not to take it. You can poo poo anything you want because it's not from your sources but there are real doctors out there who feel different and that doesnt automatically make them right or wrong but there is a difference in opinion. this is from june. This is from a British news org. https://observer.ug/news/headlines/73983-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-stir-rage 👏👏👏👏👍👍👍👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 2 hours ago, custard pie man said: you won't see that picked up by wide stream media not until they want to use it against trump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slave to zep Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, hummingbird69 said: yes, the answer all lefties go to when they have nothing to come back with. The same people who are doing everything they can to bend reality to their wanting are the ones telling you men can get pregnant, the laptop was fake, and trump is a racist fascist dictator and anyone who wants him for president is a white supremist. If you want to follow them be my guest, but don't expect me to follow you off that cliff. The vax was rushed period. That is a fact. The amount of time normally taken to make sure a vaccine is safe and truly effective did not happen. Vaccines normally take anywhere from 5, 10 or more years of development and testing before they reach the public. There have been NO long range studies done on this vax and there have been way too many side effects and complications. Normally if a vax causes any reactions it's pulled immediately. Not with this one. If you want to believe in fauci go ahead and make yourself feel safe. The fact is this vax is not as good as they say it is. If you want to take it go ahead and take it, but with all the people screaming about the side effects of Hydroxychloroquine, a perfectly safe and effective medicine you'd think they might be worried about a vax that IS causing myocarditis and blood clots. Rare events or not if you want to take the vax that's your choice just as it is my choice not to take it. You can poo poo anything you want because it's not from your sources but there are real doctors out there who feel different and that doesnt automatically make them right or wrong but there is a difference in opinion. this is from june. This is from a British news org. https://observer.ug/news/headlines/73983-covid-19-vaccine-deaths-stir-rage Once again, anger clouds the mind. I'm not telling you to get a vaccine - don't get it if you don't think it's safe. The vaccines were indeed rushed, developed very quickly. That's why (with one exception, I forget which) they still have emergency use authorization rather than full regular authorization. They also do have side effects, and some of them are quite serious and life-threatening - for example the 6-7 people who died of blood clot-related issues after receiving the J&J vaccine (which is not an mRNA vaccine BTW). They are quite rare, though (remember, more than 12 billion shots have been administered so far worldwide), and the risk of mortality from a COVID vaccine is many orders of magnitude less than the risk of mortality from COVID. So too is the risk of myocarditis from a COVID vaccine lower than the risk of myocarditis from having COVID. We know all this precisely because there is a massive amount of clinical data on COVID vaccines, and that data is the foundation for the strong international medical and expert consensus that they are safe and effective, and as safe or safer than other vaccines that have been successfully used for decades to protect against (and in some cases, virtually eradicate) diseases. I don't say this to try to convince you to get vaccinated - do as you wish. I say it simply because it's true. Hydroxychloroquine is not an effective COVID treatment, and it's not "perfectly safe" - it produces dangerous side effects (which have been well-known with that family of drugs for decades now - this is not new or controversial information). That's just a fact. I'm not poo-pooing anything. As anyone can clearly see, I agree that the vaccines were developed on an accelerated schedule and that they have side effects, and that people have died from them. But every one of your posts I've seen on this topic contains factual assertions that are clearly and demonstrably untrue. In this exchange, one of us has demonstrated a willingness to discern fact from fantasy and to admit to facts that do not necessarily support their overall position. And the other one has responded with name-calling ("loser," edited now I see to "leftie" - whatever turns you on a fuels your preconceptions I guess), tangential and juvenile memes, and a level of rage that seems bizarrely over the top in a civil discussion between adults. I'm confident anyone reading this thread with an open mind can decide for themselves which is which. Edited August 30, 2022 by tmtomh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 30, 2022 Share Posted August 30, 2022 Lis 1 hour ago, tmtomh said: Once again, anger clouds the mind. I'm not telling you to get a vaccine - don't get it if you don't think it's safe. The vaccines were indeed rushed, developed very quickly. That's why (with one exception, I forget which) they still have emergency use authorization rather than full regular authorization. They also do have side effects, and some of them are quite serious and life-threatening - for example the 6-7 people who died of blood clot-related issues after receiving the J&J vaccine (which is not an mRNA vaccine BTW). They are quite rare, though (remember, more than 12 billion shots have been administered so far worldwide), and the risk of mortality from a COVID vaccine is many orders of magnitude less than the risk of mortality from COVID. So too is the risk of myocarditis from a COVID vaccine lower than the risk of myocarditis from having COVID. We know all this precisely because there is a massive amount of clinical data on COVID vaccines, and that data is the foundation for the strong international medical and expert consensus that they are safe and effective, and as safe or safer than other vaccines that have been successfully used for decades to protect against (and in some cases, virtually eradicate) diseases. I don't say this to try to convince you to get vaccinated - do as you wish. I say it simply because it's true. Hydroxychloroquine is not an effective COVID treatment, and it's not "perfectly safe" - it produces dangerous side effects (which have been well-known with that family of drugs for decades now - this is not new or controversial information). That's just a fact. I'm not poo-pooing anything. As anyone can clearly see, I agree that the vaccines were developed on an accelerated schedule and that they have side effects, and that people have died from them. But every one of your posts I've seen on this topic contains factual assertions that are clearly and demonstrably untrue. In this exchange, one of us has demonstrated a willingness to discern fact from fantasy and to admit to facts that do not necessarily support their overall position. And the other one has responded with name-calling ("loser," edited now I see to "leftie" - whatever turns you on a fuels your preconceptions I guess), tangential and juvenile memes, and a level of rage that seems bizarrely over the top in a civil discussion between adults. I'm confident anyone reading this thread with an open mind can decide for themselves which is which. You think I care about trump, I don't, I am concerned that the very people who are telling you how bad he is are the ones going to extremes the likes of which this country has never seen to keep him from office. I don't give 2 shits about trump and what he has to say but after 6 years of the left having a microscope up his ass without finding anything they can actually find him guilty of it's very disconcerting for the country when people like that call others the fascists. If they can do this to trump they can do it to anybody and that should make you nervous. My point about HDQ was not that it was a successful treatment but more to the point that the side effects are nowhere near as horrible as they were made out to be. From 1970 to Dec. 31, 2019, there were 24,728 adverse events reported to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's Adverse Event Reporting System (FAERS) for hydroxychloroquine, so with millions of doses given world wide I don't think it's the monster the left made it out to be. It may not help against covid but it is most definitely not going to kill you and that is what the left was saying. And don't be a snowflake! I decided not to call you a loser seemed a bit harsh but you do seem a lefty. the left has branded me, a racist, a bigot, homophobic, misogynistic, terrorist, white supremist, and now a semi fascist. I can't wait until they say I'm a full fascist then I've really made it! If I can take all those names I'm sure you'll survive being called a lefty. And TBH there are people here who find my posts ok and those who don't. I'm sure someone here agrees with you so that makes us even. I really don't care if you disagree with me or not, you are of course free to think what ever you want. A big question for some people though is were you any better under 4 years of trump than you are now and I can say unequivocally that YES my life and finances were far better under trump than they are now at just under 2 years of biden and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better soon. Have fun while you can this country is done unless big changes happen to the gov. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmtomh Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 1 hour ago, hummingbird69 said: Lis You think I care about trump, I don't, I am concerned that the very people who are telling you how bad he is are the ones going to extremes the likes of which this country has never seen to keep him from office. I don't give 2 shits about trump and what he has to say but after 6 years of the left having a microscope up his ass without finding anything they can actually find him guilty of it's very disconcerting for the country when people like that call others the fascists. If they can do this to trump they can do it to anybody and that should make you nervous. My point about HDQ was not that it was a successful treatment but more to the point that the side effects are nowhere near as horrible as they were made out to be. From 1970 to Dec. 31, 2019, there were 24,728 adverse events reported to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's Adverse Event Reporting System (FAERS) for hydroxychloroquine, so with millions of doses given world wide I don't think it's the monster the left made it out to be. It may not help against covid but it is most definitely not going to kill you and that is what the left was saying. And don't be a snowflake! I decided not to call you a loser seemed a bit harsh but you do seem a lefty. the left has branded me, a racist, a bigot, homophobic, misogynistic, terrorist, white supremist, and now a semi fascist. I can't wait until they say I'm a full fascist then I've really made it! If I can take all those names I'm sure you'll survive being called a lefty. And TBH there are people here who find my posts ok and those who don't. I'm sure someone here agrees with you so that makes us even. I really don't care if you disagree with me or not, you are of course free to think what ever you want. A big question for some people though is were you any better under 4 years of trump than you are now and I can say unequivocally that YES my life and finances were far better under trump than they are now at just under 2 years of biden and it doesn't look like it's going to get any better soon. Have fun while you can this country is done unless big changes happen to the gov. You've got a lot of axes to grind, and I'm not quite sure why you're flailing away at me about them. I never said anything about Trump one way or the other. Your point about HDQ is meaningless outside the context of COVID in which you raised it. As for name-calling, I didn't say I was hurt, upset, or offended; I merely pointed it out. We certainly have serious disagreements about politics; I think that was obvious from the outset, and that's fine. We also have disagreements about some of the basic facts that form the foundations of the issues we're disagreeing about, and I think that tends to make discussion more difficult. I do very much agree with you that this country has major problems. I suspect we might agree on what some of those problems are, disagree about what some of those problems are, and disagree quite a bit about the sources of them and what should be done about them. At any rate, from my perspective it seems like our discussion has run its course, so I'm happy to leave it on what seems to be a fairly civil note if you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummingbird69 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 45 minutes ago, tmtomh said: You've got a lot of axes to grind, and I'm not quite sure why you're flailing away at me about them. I never said anything about Trump one way or the other. Your point about HDQ is meaningless outside the context of COVID in which you raised it. As for name-calling, I didn't say I was hurt, upset, or offended; I merely pointed it out. We certainly have serious disagreements about politics; I think that was obvious from the outset, and that's fine. We also have disagreements about some of the basic facts that form the foundations of the issues we're disagreeing about, and I think that tends to make discussion more difficult. I do very much agree with you that this country has major problems. I suspect we might agree on what some of those problems are, disagree about what some of those problems are, and disagree quite a bit about the sources of them and what should be done about them. At any rate, from my perspective it seems like our discussion has run its course, so I'm happy to leave it on what seems to be a fairly civil note if you are. Were cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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