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confounded_bridge

1977 SHOWS RANKED INTO 3 CATEGORIES

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I can forgive an off song or even two, but Landover is a horror from start to finish. That night and the Cleveland show from the weird category I will never listen to again. My criteria for a bad show are First and foremost, Jimmy not being up to snuff on a particular night. 2nd: Plant is hoarse and Jimmy's playing is weak/average, and last would be Plant is barely audible/croaking throughout most of the show w/ Jimmy playing okay/acceptable. I can love most anything Zep or find something good in every other show other than the aforementioned.

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On 1/1/2019 at 2:49 PM, JohnOsbourne said:

Well, unfortunately audio-only boots are the only way the vast majority of Zep fans are going to be able to experience the '77 band, and on this count, the abundance of shows reveal a band whose technical prowess was a shell of the glory years of '71-73, and even far weaker than the '75 tour with it's many problems.  (The Texas shows you mention are a case in point, Page's playing is just horrid.)  It's revealing that so many '77 aficionados have to refer to the non-aural aspects of those shows to make the case for '77.  No doubt the '77 shows were an impressive visual experience (except for Page's emaciation), and great set list, too, but the actual playing was really poor.

Clearly, JohnOsbourne, you and I have a different reality on what was. I have wonderful memories from 1977, and you have boots to mull over. But hey, that's good, you can live in your world, and I'll live in my  memories. 📸

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50 minutes ago, The Rover said:

Clearly, JohnOsbourne, you and I have a different reality on what was. I have wonderful memories from 1977, and you have boots to mull over. But hey, that's good, you can live in your world, and I'll live in my  memories. 📸

Good for you for having had the privilege of seeing them live, I wish I could say I did.  However, answer honestly, which of these versions of STH, separated by almost exactly two years, is better:

 

 

I mean come on, it couldn't be any more obvious.  In Fort Worth Page literally sounds like he can't play guitar.  And this is regarded as a good '77 concert by many!  No memory is going to change that.

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12 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Good for you for having had the privilege of seeing them live, I wish I could say I did.  However, answer honestly, which of these versions of STH, separated by almost exactly two years, is better:

 

 

I mean come on, it couldn't be any more obvious.  In Fort Worth Page literally sounds like he can't play guitar.  And this is regarded as a good '77 concert by many!  No memory is going to change that.

That show from Ft Worth sounds pretty bad, but a lot of that has to do with the really crappy soundboard recording. The whole band sounds terribly flat. In the arena that night, I'm sure it sounded much better and much more natural too. Jimmy isn't playing too well in that gig from 77 to be sure, but also, to be sure, it's not as bad as that soundboard makes it out to be. I hate, hate, hate soundboards like that. God awful!

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14 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Good for you for having had the privilege of seeing them live, I wish I could say I did.  However, answer honestly, which of these versions of STH, separated by almost exactly two years, is better:

 

 

I mean come on, it couldn't be any more obvious.  In Fort Worth Page literally sounds like he can't play guitar.  And this is regarded as a good '77 concert by many!  No memory is going to change that.

Both sound equally dreadful to me.

But here's what's funny; I checked my nitpick of ft worth and gave it rave reviews. But..I used the liriodendron remaster which sounds so phenomenal that it masks a lot of the bad articulation. Even the dry EV version I have sounds better than the link you shared. Kinda makes you wonder if those audience sources like 4/28 or 6/21 are really that good. Also makes me wanna redo the nitpick with a more realistic source as I was obviously deceived.

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4 minutes ago, Christopher Lees said:

That show from Ft Worth sounds pretty bad, but a lot of that has to do with the really crappy soundboard recording. The whole band sounds terribly flat. In the arena that night, I'm sure it sounded much better and much more natural too. Jimmy isn't playing too well in that gig from 77 to be sure, but also, to be sure, it's not as bad as that soundboard makes it out to be. I hate, hate, hate soundboards like that. God awful!

Fair enough, that is a rather sour soundboard, but the audience version doesn't inspire much more confidence:

 

At any rate, a soundboard exposes many flaws (see Landover '75), and while the Earl's Court soundboard is very pleasant sounding, the point is that the performance is flawless.  Nothing like it was ever played in even the good '77 concerts.

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2 minutes ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Both sound equally dreadful to me.

But here's what's funny; I checked my nitpick of ft worth and gave it rave reviews. But..I used the liriodendron remaster which sounds so phenomenal that it masks a lot of the bad articulation. Even the dry EV version I have sounds better than the link you shared. Kinda makes you wonder if those audience sources like 4/28 or 6/21 are really that good. Also makes me wanna redo the nitpick with a more realistic source as I was obviously deceived.

What do you dislike about the Earl's Court version?

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9 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

What do you dislike about the Earl's Court version?

Don't get me wrong, he knocks down some impressive runs, but waay too much repetition. The first eight measures are repeated phrases. Whereas in 77 he'd at least improvise some good noodling throughout. 8:36 and on he gets a little sticky. Those staccato chords are played poorly. Also take into account that mix sounds much better. Although the technical ability between 75 and 77 is close, I think in 77 he did get his phrasing ability out of the ditch.

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I'm not digging the EC solo either. Way too long, indulgent, repetitive and sloppy. When you compare that to TSRTS version, it doesn't even come close. Personally, I have always thought the EC shows were way overrated. There is a good one though, I can't remember if it's the 17th or 18th, but one of them has some awesome guitar play, 73 style.

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11 minutes ago, Christopher Lees said:

I'm not digging the EC solo either. Way too long, indulgent, repetitive and sloppy. When you compare that to TSRTS version, it doesn't even come close. Personally, I have always thought the EC shows were way overrated. There is a good one though, I can't remember if it's the 17th or 18th, but one of them has some awesome guitar play, 73 style.

I think the 18th is generally regarded as very fluid, almost 73ish.  I fully agree that the EC shows are overrated (the West Coast shows from May are overall much better) although there are definitely some brilliant moments, among which being STH from the 24th although obviously there's some disagreement here.  It wouldn't be fair to compare '77 to '73, that's why I chose a '75 show.  And I wasn't claiming the solo from the 24th was the best ever (although it is one of my personal favorites), only that it's far and away better than the Fort Worth version that had been previously mentioned as a good '77 show.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, gibsonfan159 said:

Also makes me wanna redo the nitpick with a more realistic source as I was obviously deceived.

Mate, I reckon the clearer (dryer) soundboards are the ones that deceive as that is not anywhere near the experience when attending the performance. So Liriodendrons ability to liven up a dry board and give it a closer alignment to what was actually delivered to the audience in my view is the best way to approach boots - especially when reviewing.

The Millard tapes in LA - especially the really nice remaster of LTTE - lets you close your eyes and basically feel like you are right there when the right hardware is used and volume achieved. I would imagine that would by far be a better boot to review than a soundboard should it ever drop.

Cheers.

Edited by rm2551

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77 was a tough year for Zeppelin fans, but one show that stands out to me is 6-13-77. Plant actually has some voice in that show, some decent range, and Page plays rather well. I would have to listen and analyze it all again, but I think 6-13-77 may be better than the LA shows. I seem to remember the first 5 or 6 songs really came out well and had lots of energy, supercharged, with a very powerful delivery. My version of this show was called Over The Garden.

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6 hours ago, rm2551 said:

Mate, I reckon the clearer (dryer) soundboards are the ones that deceive as that is not anywhere near the experience when attending the performance

I completely agree on an "experience" standpoint, but when dissecting someone's technical ability it's better to have a dry, unmasked source. Page really was sloppy on Ft. Worth even compared to other dry soundboards.

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10 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

At any rate, a soundboard exposes many flaws (see Landover '75), and while the Earl's Court soundboard is very pleasant sounding, the point is that the performance is flawless.  Nothing like it was ever played in even the good '77 concerts.

If you're strictly talking about STH, I think the LA 77 versions equal if not surpass the version from Earls Court. The version on For Badgeholders Only especially is fantastic and one of my all time favorites. I'm no guitar player, but this solo sounds great to my ears.

 

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Posted (edited)

5/30/77 also has an impressive sounding STH solo.. I haven't heard the soundboard but it sounds great on the audience source. 

Edited by Daeron

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1 hour ago, ZepHead315 said:

If you're strictly talking about STH, I think the LA 77 versions equal if not surpass the version from Earls Court. The version on For Badgeholders Only especially is fantastic and one of my all time favorites. I'm no guitar player, but this solo sounds great to my ears.

 

Yes! One of my favorite Stairway solos.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Fair enough, that is a rather sour soundboard, but the audience version doesn't inspire much more confidence:

 

At any rate, a soundboard exposes many flaws (see Landover '75), and while the Earl's Court soundboard is very pleasant sounding, the point is that the performance is flawless.  Nothing like it was ever played in even the good '77 concerts.

It  is  totally  unfair  to  compare  a  good  '75  version  of  STH  to  a  really  bad  '77  version. Why  you  didn't  chose  5/30/77  or  6/23/77?  Ft  worth  is  a  good  show  (not  great  of  course)  but  that  sth  version  sucks. Do  the  comparison  again, but  this  time  please  be  fair.

Edited by confounded_bridge

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16 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

I do agree though that the 77 version of Zeppelin were a shell of their glory years 71-73. No doubt.

Well, the  same  with  1975  and  1980.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Christopher Lees said:

77 was a tough year for Zeppelin fans, but one show that stands out to me is 6-13-77. Plant actually has some voice in that show, some decent range, and Page plays rather well. I would have to listen and analyze it all again, but I think 6-13-77 may be better than the LA shows. I seem to remember the first 5 or 6 songs really came out well and had lots of energy, supercharged, with a very powerful delivery. My version of this show was called Over The Garden.

So, do  you  think  that  all  these  people  who  went  to  the  Cleveland, Pontiac, Birmingham, NY  and   LA  shows  feel   bad  and  have  regreted? I  don't  think  so. Listen  more  to  the  really  good  '77  shows  and  you  will  change  opinion.

Edited by confounded_bridge

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Sorry, but STH was never that special to me, on record, or live. STH was Never the highlight of any Zeppelin concert I saw 71-77. I can't be bothered listening to versions of a song that I don't care much for. There's an extra dimension to being there, at a Led Zeppelin concert, in person, that cannot be recorded on tape or film. The sound recorded on boots and soundboards is only part of the equation. I'll leave it to you guys to pick over and rate the boots and soundboards.

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11 hours ago, Daeron said:

5/30/77 also has an impressive sounding STH solo.. I haven't heard the soundboard but it sounds great on the audience source. 

It sounds awesome on soundboard, especially the lirio remaster. A truly underrated version with Page almost flawless.

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23 hours ago, confounded_bridge said:

So, do  you  think  that  all  these  people  who  went  to  the  Cleveland, Pontiac, Birmingham, NY  and   LA  shows  feel   bad  and  have  regreted? I  don't  think  so. Listen  more  to  the  really  good  '77  shows  and  you  will  change  opinion.

I've been listening to the whole tour for 25 years.

I have no opinion on the personal regrets of the fans who went to see the 77 shows. My comment was not about their opinions, but rather the shows themselves. Even the best 77 shows have Jimmy in sloppy mode, all night, every night. In no single show or even a single song, did he achieve the levels of fluidity he achieved in 71-73. On top of that, Plant can't sing after the 73 tour, and even the 73 tour was pretty bad compared to 68-72. When Robert Plant sounds like me in my car trying to sing Zeppelin and Jimmy in sloppy mode, it's just not the same. The best 77 shows are really just a B and hardly even a B+ while the best 71-73 shows are clearly A+.

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