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It was 38 years ago on the 4th


dragster

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No I didn't. You accused me of not being a "real" fan because I was too young. It isn't my fault I'm young. I'm just as much a fan as anyone else here.

Listen closely because I'll only say this once. You have confused me with someone else.

I'd never tell anyone they were too young to be a fan of Led Zeppelin. Preposterous!

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The Kent state thing always reminded me of the Boston Massacre. What happened seems to be inevitable given the circumstances.

Agreed. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it:

The Boston Massacre

The town of Boston was a very uneasy city throughout the 1760's. This uneasiness quickly turned to belligerence in the early part of 1770. Tensions had been mounting from the beginning of the year with various clashes between British sympathizers and colonists. However, in early March the tensions erupted into bloodshed.

On March 5, 1770 a small group of colonists were up to their usual sport of tormenting British soldiers. By many accounts there was a great deal of taunting that eventually lead to an escalation of hostilities. The sentry in front of the Custom House eventually lashed out at the colonists which brought more colonists to the scene. In fact, someone began ringing the church bells which usually signified a fire. The sentry called for help, setting up the clash which we now call the Boston Massacre.

A group of soldiers led by Captain Thomas Preston came to the rescue of the lone sentry. Captain Preston and his detachment of seven or eight men were quickly surrounded. All attempts to calm the crowd proved useless. At this point, the accounts of the event vary drastically. Apparently, a soldier fired a musket into the crowd, immediately followed by more shots. This action left several wounded and five dead including an African-American named Crisus Attucks. The crowd quickly dispersed, and the soldiers went back to their barracks. These are the facts we do know. However, many uncertainties surround this important historical event:

  • Did the soldiers fire with provocation?
  • Did they fire on their own?
  • Was Captain Preston guilty of ordering his men to fire into a crowd of civilians?
  • Was he innocent and being used by men like Samuel Adams to confirm the oft-claimed tyranny of England?

The only evidence historians have to try and determine Captain Preston's guilt or innocence is the testimony of the eyewitnesses. Unfortunately, many of the statements conflict with each other and with Captain Preston's own account.

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As said, it was a monumental f-up. Just as the miscommunication sent the firefighters up the twin towers, it should have never happened. Governing obviously can go very wrong sometimes.

That photo of the -ohio trajedy says it all. I can't help but to think of -virginia tech also though, a real problem and i am surprised that there hasnt been sweeping gun laws after that.

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You seem to have overlooked there was a full-blown riot in progress. Arsonists had set fires. Police officers and National Guardsman (who fall under state, not federal control by the way) were under attack.

The United States is the world's best, brightest hope for freedom and democracy and it's citizens are governed by the rule of law. These "protestors" put themselves and others at risk when they violated the laws of the land.

When you consider the magnitude of other mid twentieth century protests such as the Watts Riot or of those of the Black Panthers, how harmful is a protest by college students? The flinging of rocks and dirt are nothing compared to military guns and bullets, ever. That seems more preposterous to me.

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When you consider the magnitude of other mid twentieth century protests such as the Watts Riot or of those of the Black Panthers, how harmful is a protest by college students? The flinging of rocks and dirt are nothing compared to military guns and bullets, ever. That seems more preposterous to me.

I presume you've never been struck in the eye by a rock or hit in the head by a brick.

The campus protest had all the ingredients for a perfect storm: angry, disenfranchised students, poorly trained National Guardsmen, ineffective student and school leadership, grandstanding politicians, criminals, arsonists, agitators and instigators.

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Under attack with what.......words, slogans, signs?????!

Flowers..remember?

It is a good reminder that the youth of our country HAVE POWER. And if only more would get involved in the same masses that the Latinos do, maybe we could put an end to yet another no sense war. Kids...come on!

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It is a good reminder that the youth of our country HAVE POWER. And if only more would get involved in the same masses that the Latinos do, maybe we could put an end to yet another no sense war. Kids...come on!

They won't Hotplant, and I can tell you the one reason why: because there is no draft.

Generally speaking, they just don't give a shit; too busy "saving the planet" I suppose.

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I know, yet it saddens me that they don't have the same passion we had, we truly believed we could make a difference. A draft might not even do it. :(

The thing is, we are using too many National Guard that should be HERE for disasters that are going to happen.

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we truly believed we could make a difference.

-- excerpt from President John F. Kennedy's inaugaral address, Jan 20, 1961

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility—I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it—and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

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When you consider the magnitude of other mid twentieth century protests such as the Watts Riot or of those of the Black Panthers, how harmful is a protest by college students? The flinging of rocks and dirt are nothing compared to military guns and bullets, ever. That seems more preposterous to me.

I totally concur! :)

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The campus protest had all the ingredients for a perfect storm: angry, disenfranchised students, poorly trained National Guardsmen, ineffective student and school leadership, grandstanding politicians, criminals, arsonists, agitators and instigators.

The REAL CRIMINALS can only be found in one place: GOVERNMENT!

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The trigger happy shooters were probably pissed at all the college student's deferments. They avoided the draft, no doubt the shooters didn't. Then again if they joined, the nature of the military is to shoot 'em up! So either way, when you get a bunch of 19 year olds together with loaded rifles they're gonna get amped and trigger happy. It was inevitable.

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I big thank you to the people here who replied......it means A LOT to me, but it should mean a lot more to our American friends here.

Robert.

From this American's point of view -- Kent State could have been avoided....

... those students should have been in class doing what they were supposed to be doing. Instead of causing trouble by throwing rocks and bottles at other young men who were in uniform.

It was incidents like Kent State, the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago, and other displays of lawlessness. That convinced me and many other Americans that the liberal left was a threat to our national identity. In fact, it was that period of our history (which despite the efforts of the radical left to create a "new progressive" society) -- actually helped to lay the seeds of neo-conservatism and the Reagan revolution. And Republican Presidential victories for 7 out of 10 times over the next 40 years.

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Just one account among many:

May 2 1970

Armed with tear gas and drawn bayonets, the guard pursued students, protesters and bystanders alike, into dormitories and other campus buildings. Some stones were thrown. The question of who set the fire (students slashed the fire hoses) that destroyed ROTC building has never been satisfactorily answered by any investigative body.

May 4 1970

Retreating up Blanket Hill, some students lobbed tear gas canisters back at the advancing troops...tear gas canisters were thrown back and forth from the Guard's position to a small group of students n the Prentice Hall parking lot, about 100 yards

away. Some students responded to the guardsmen's attack by throwing stones.

Members of Troop G, while advancing up the hill, continued to glance back to the parking lot, where the most militant and vocal students were located. As the

guard reached the crest of the Blanket Hill, near the Pagoda of Taylor Hall, about a dozen members of Troop G simultaneously turned around 180 degrees, aimed and fired their weapons into the crowd in the Prentice Hall parking lot. The 1975 civil trials

proved that there was a verbal command to fire.

-----------------------------------------------

Once again, it was a tragedy and there was a failure of leadership on many levels, but

this idea that every student protestor was innocent and law-abiding is patently false.

I never considered every student protestor as innocent and law-abiding... patently, or not. I didn't get the impression from any of the posts prior to yours that I've quoted as claiming that all the student protestors were innocent, law-abiding, etc. etc. By the same token, I don't see how anyone can assume (if, in fact, anyone does) that all the students were violent and rioting. Two of the four students killed were walking to class. One of those two was even an ROTC cadet.

I agree it was a tragedy. I agree it was a failure of leadership on many levels. In addition to the tragic loss of life, a significant part of the tragedy was that such a fuckup could occur... due to a failure of leadership on many levels.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I remember seeing the news coverage of the various protests and demonstrations that went on then. I remember the uncertainty and fear I felt at the time about all the violence, the war, etc. People kept talking about 'peace and love', or 'law and order'... and I didn't see much of either.

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Moving on we have...another personal attack upon me (yawn).

I think I'll leave you all to wonder. Some of my views are supported by the second law of thermodynamics, all of them are supported by common sense and decency. You

should be glad to have a forum wherein we can discuss our different viewpoints. I am.

So what...I should be grateful for you calling me gaybarre?

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From this American's point of view -- Kent State could have been avoided....

... those students should have been in class doing what they were supposed to be doing. Instead of causing trouble by throwing rocks and bottles at other young men who were in uniform.

It was incidents like Kent State, the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago, and other displays of lawlessness. That convinced me and many other Americans that the liberal left was a threat to our national identity. In fact, it was that period of our history (which despite the efforts of the radical left to create a "new progressive" society) -- actually helped to lay the seeds of neo-conservatism and the Reagan revolution. And Republican Presidential victories for 7 out of 10 times over the next 40 years.

Best post in the thread.

:thumbsup:

Del you're an Island of common sense in a sea of Dumb Asses.

2e0f3066.jpg

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... those students should have been in class doing what they were supposed to be doing. Instead of causing trouble by throwing rocks and bottles at other young men who were in uniform.

It was incidents like Kent State, the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago, and other displays of lawlessness.

So should the Tibetans be protesting? Or should they be law-abiding citizens respecting the Chinese Military?

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My thoughts exactly. After all the other unnecessary shooting since, walking around with guns is still ok. :huh:

Oh god, you're opening a can of worms there, we just battled that argument for 15 pages in the old Virginia Tech thread...

You see, their argument is they need lots and lots of guns to protect themsevles from bad guys, you know how a lot of the men on this forum think they're cowboys? You know they've got semi-automatic rifle in one arm, and a 15 year old girl in the other...

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So should the Tibetans be protesting? Or should they be law-abiding citizens respecting the Chinese Military?

Protesting might be fine. But I wouldn't recommend throwing any rocks at them.

Besides, how can one claim to be a peaceful protester (talking about Kent State), and then throw a rock at somebody? And even if people claim that they didn't participate in the rock throwing, why would any so called "peaceful person" continue to be involved with a demonstration where others are throwing rocks?

Sorry, but as soon as the local law enforcement declares a demonstration to be a 'riot' or in violation of the peace. Then all GOOD CITIZENS, wether they are demonstrating or not, have a DUTY TO DISPERSE. Failure to comply only creates a stronger police response. And then the responsibility lies with those participating in a demonstration gone bad.

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Protesting might be fine. But I wouldn't recommend throwing any rocks at them.

Besides, how can one claim to be a peaceful protester (talking about Kent State), and then throw a rock at somebody? And even if people claim that they didn't participate in the rock throwing, why would any so called "peaceful person" continue to be involved with a demonstration where others are throwing rocks?

Sorry, but as soon as the local law enforcement declares a demonstration to be a 'riot' or in violation of the peace. Then all GOOD CITIZENS, wether they are demonstrating or not, have a DUTY TO DISPERSE. Failure to comply only creates a stronger police response. And then the responsibility lies with those participating in a demonstration gone bad.

Rock throwing or not. Guns should not have been used against people who weren't carrying firearms. I'm all for a night stick beat down, trust me... But you can blame the Liberal Left; I'm willing to bet the person who gave the order for guns to be loaded and aimed at students wasn't a leftist liberal. Know what I mean?

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Protesting might be fine. But I wouldn't recommend throwing any rocks at them.

Besides, how can one claim to be a peaceful protester (talking about Kent State), and then throw a rock at somebody? And even if people claim that they didn't participate in the rock throwing, why would any so called "peaceful person" continue to be involved with a demonstration where others are throwing rocks?

But it's a bit different if one person is armed with a rock or a can, and the other person is armed with guns...

Why were the National Guard even called in to Kent State? I thought it was a gross overreaction, and we have seen countless times that protests can be controlled and dispersed without soldiers there firing their guns on people

It was a draconian reaction to send the National Guard in there, and look at what the result was.

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