1977 multi-tracks

[TheGreatOne]

I never realized the 2 mic thing to be multi-track standard.   Is it a standard for this to be done this way ??  What about advanced technology or other methods ?  I don't know that technical stuff but tried looking for Typology or Schematic maps how it would all connect?     Is Multi-Track where 1/2 the feed goes to the PA/Soundboard and other 2nd set Mic goes right to a mixer or recorder of some sort?

[TheGreatOne]

I'm not expert, but what is this splitter ?

...but an alternative approach is to use a splitter, such as this ART S8, to take the FOH mic signals to your own preamps.If you can take a feed from the desk's direct outs, I'd strongly recommend that you do. All you'll need then is a space to set up, a multitrack recording system (no mic preamps required!), suitably terminated looms to connect the direct outs to your system, and some form of monitoring.

[FavouriteTipple]

I'm not expert, but what is this splitter ?

...but an alternative approach is to use a splitter...

 

Darn, I thought a splitter was the Judean People's Front.

That's a Monty Python reference lest anyone be bewildered.

[woz70]

I never realized the 2 mic thing to be multi-track standard.   Is it a standard for this to be done this way ??  What about advanced technology or other methods ?  I don't know that technical stuff but tried looking for Typology or Schematic maps how it would all connect?     Is Multi-Track where 1/2 the feed goes to the PA/Soundboard and other 2nd set Mic goes right to a mixer or recorder of some sort?

It's not a 'standard' now, and splitting is generally the way things go nowadays, but in the past running a separate set of mics would have been easier all around.
In the 70's recording technology wasn't particularly portable, and any live recording would've involved parking a mobile studio outside the venue.  When you're recording you want to ideally have the shortest distance from the microphone to the pre-amp/tape input - more cable = more signal degradation = more noise recorded to tape.  To keep the cable runs as short as possible, separate mic'ing for foh (front of house) and recording truck makes sense.
If you split the signals from the mic's you're interfering with what the live sound guys are doing - they have to wire up an splitter box - and their primary job is to make sure that the sound works, full stop.  They will be unwilling to add an extra bit of gear that they're not used to dealing with, and it would instantly double the amount of cabling they would need to use  Also, the less connections there are, the more reliable the sound rig will be 
The choice and placement of mics for live sound reinforcement might not/probably won't be the choice of the recording engineer, so again it makes sense for him to run his own system.  He might also want to mic things that the foh guys wouldn't - like the audience.
Nowadays life is much easier - most live sound desks have sockets where you can tap the signal before it hits the eq/fader/processing that the live engineer requires, plus you can have the recorder in the same place as the sound desk.  The O2 show was recorded direct to a 96 track digital recorder that took up as much about as much space as a laser printer.  In comparison, the Albert Hall gig needed a truck full of gear parked outside.

[bluecongo]

There are no 77 multi tracks.  Never even been a hint of evidence.  

The LA run or MSG run would've been the time to do it but alas it didn't 

 

 

[tglynn]

I've checked the photos for every concert played in 77 and I can't see any evidence of this either. 

[Strider]

I really don't understand why this is even a bone of contention at this late date? Is it that hard for people to grasp? Not to mention we are talking about 1977 recording technology versus 2015.

In 1977 Pink Floyd were the most sonically-advanced band around and even they still needed a mobile recording truck and a seperate microphone system (hence the two mics on the kick drum being a signifier that a show was being multitracked) to multitrack their concerts.

I was at the 1977 LA Forum gigs. You know what wasn't at the Forum that week in June 1977? The Rolling Stones Mobile Truck and a second mic on Bonham's kick drum.

[Dirty Work]

Idk what the proper definition of "multi-track" is, but the answer to the OP's question (are there any from '77) is yes IMO. Landover, 2nd night. Two recordings exist and circulate, both are from the board (in some way or another), and they are very much different. One sounds like a monitor mix (heavy bass drum, dry vocals, very little bass), the other like a regular soundboard (fairly balanced house mix). Mixed together, perfectly synced (good luck), I guess you could call that a multitrack.  

 

FWIW, the best multitrack recordings ever made, or at least my personal favorites, always happened to be from the recording trucks. Don't know much about them, but they must have been sweet as hell. Jimi Hendrix's Winterland (expanded box set with all 3 versions of Like a Rolling Stone) comes to mind. Zeppelin at The Albert Hall is one of my favorites, but not sure if it came from a truck.

[Flares]

I think the old Led Wallet may have prevented the band from recording more concerts on multi-track.

[Badgeholder Still]

I really don't understand why this is even a bone of contention at this late date? Is it that hard for people to grasp? Not to mention we are talking about 1977 recording technology versus 2015.

In 1977 Pink Floyd were the most sonically-advanced band around and even they still needed a mobile recording truck and a seperate microphone system (hence the two mics on the kick drum being a signifier that a show was being multitracked) to multitrack their concerts.

I was at the 1977 LA Forum gigs. You know what wasn't at the Forum that week in June 1977? The Rolling Stones Mobile Truck and a second mic on Bonham's kick drum.

It's a matter of speculation because no one remembers a recording truck or the microphone set-up in Ft. Worth on 1975-03-03 but a previously unknown soundboard recording from that show recently became a real thing.

Did you mistake the Rolling Stones Mobile for Wally Heider's? Are you saying that soundboard concert recordings through at least 1977 weren't possible without a mobile unit and that Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd soundboard recordings through 1977 wouldn't exist without a mobile recording truck on site? 

Exactly which Pink Floyd recordings from 1977 originate from a soundboard tape?

You were how old in 1977? You remember which vehicles were outside The Forum on those nights and how all of the microphones were set up?

[Strider]

It's a matter of speculation because no one remembers a recording truck or the microphone set-up in Ft. Worth on 1975-03-03 but a previously unknown soundboard recording from that show recently became a real thing.

Did you mistake the Rolling Stones Mobile for Wally Heider's? Are you saying that soundboard concert recordings through at least 1977 weren't possible without a mobile unit and that Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd soundboard recordings through 1977 wouldn't exist without a mobile recording truck on site? 

Exactly which Pink Floyd recordings from 1977 originate from a soundboard tape?

You were how old in 1977? You remember which vehicles were outside The Forum on those nights and how all of the microphones were set up?

Old enough to know the difference between soundboards and multitracks at least. Sheesh. Need I remind you that soundboards and multitracks are entirely separate things?

[Badgeholder Still]

Need I remind you that soundboards and multitracks are entirely separate things?

You needn't. The difference becomes negligible when a soundboard can produce results like Snowjobs or That's Alright New York. I'm not the only one who would prefer a EVSD soundboard sourced document of 1977-06-23 to a Jimmy Page/Kevin Shirley multitrack sourced chopped and brick-walled product of the same.

Regardless, I sill maintain that one way or another, multitrack tapes of LA '77 could have been made and exist without your knowledge.

[duckman]

 

Regardless, I sill maintain that one way or another, multitrack tapes of LA '77 could have been made and exist without your knowledge.

Given the sheer investments in light shows, stage props, etc... at the time the band must have felt very proud of the US 77 tour. They did wheel out a mobile recording studio during the previous years: in 1970 (RAH), 1971 (Japan), 1972 (West Coast), 1973 (Southampton and MSG), 1975 (Earl's Court) so it seems odd that Jimmy would have been biased against a pro recording of some 1977 shows. The missing second mic on Bonzo's bass drum is a valuable argument, but in the end it still feels like an awkward decision to me.

[Nutrocker]

Bumping this for more questioning.

I've never been able to find the interview where Jimmy says he has no multi-tracks from 77.  

The liner notes from Destroyer indicate the recording was given to the bootleggers with the blessing of John Bonham.

What Page actually said was the band was planning on filming and recording some of the shows that ended up being cancelled after Karac Plant's death- the big stadium shows, like the one at the Superdome in New Orleans. 

It's complete rubbish for anyone to say there are no multi-tracks of the '77 tour.  I can assure you some of the LA Forum and Silverdome were in fact multi-tracked.   That is so absurd to say oh... the tour is winding down, we'll just multi-track those shows....

One, how can you "assure" us? Are you another one of these guys with supposed "insider" sources? Put up or shut up, because after all these years here I am sick and goddamn tired of coming on this board to read yet more bullshit unsubstantiated claims.

Two, it's not absurd to say "Oh, the tour is winding down, we'll just multitrack these shows" because that is what Jimmy Page actually said. And there's precedence for it- that's what happened with the 1973 American Tour as well, Page and Peter Grant decided in the last two weeks of the tour to film/record some shows for posterity...

I really don't understand why this is even a bone of contention at this late date? Is it that hard for people to grasp? Not to mention we are talking about 1977 recording technology versus 2015.

In 1977 Pink Floyd were the most sonically-advanced band around and even they still needed a mobile recording truck and a seperate microphone system (hence the two mics on the kick drum being a signifier that a show was being multitracked) to multitrack their concerts.

I was at the 1977 LA Forum gigs. You know what wasn't at the Forum that week in June 1977? The Rolling Stones Mobile Truck and a second mic on Bonham's kick drum.

As usual, thank you, Strider for bringing a dose of reality into all this speculation. And as far as Pink Floyd goes, at this late date exactly one soundboard circulates for the entire "In The Flesh" Tour, and it's only half the fucking gig at that (the Animals set from Berlin 29 January)

Regardless, I sill maintain that one way or another, multitrack tapes of LA '77 could have been made and exist without your knowledge.

But they weren't- Jimmy Page fucking said so! And I'd think Jimmy Page would be in a better position to know than anybody else, since it would ultimately be his decision to record the shows.

All together now: 

There are NO 1977 multitrack recordings, period. Wishing doesn't make it so, sorry.

[TheGreatOne]

Are there any Showco employees that can confirm this ?   I've never seen so much flip flopping and changing of stories as with Carnegie Hall for example.

[NealKenneth]

These are all things I've heard before, but I'm afraid I'm just a Doubting Thomas.   Until I see/read the exact words Jimmy said, I will still hope that there were possibly high-fidelity recordings from 77.  Not multi-tracks necessarily, but maybe more carefully mixed soundboards (which I think 27 April is an example of) or possibly FMs.

The trouble is that I've seen Jimmy used the word "find" from multiple sources.  Although I believe the story that he planned to multi-track later in the tour, the word "find" implies that other multi-tracks existed.

[Nutrocker]

Are there any Showco employees that can confirm this ?

That would be nice, for sure...does anybody here REALLY know any former SHOWCO employees- I don't want to hear any claims that are second generation or more, none of this "So-and-so said that so-and-so said..." bullshit. I know a book came out a couple years back detailing the history of SHOWCO, never did get round to reading it...

 Not multi-tracks necessarily, but maybe more carefully mixed soundboards (which I think 27 April is an example of) or possibly FMs.

I want to say that what gives the April 27 soundboard such 'superior' sound is that we know it circulates straight from the master reels- the ones used as reference tapes for cues throughout the tour. It has never been officially confirmed what generation of tape copy the other '77 soundboards circulate as. I'd reckon 1st or 2nd generation, at best.

[The Old Hermit]

I would LOVE there to be at least one multi-track from that infamous tour (Pontiac would have been a natural choice, alas...), but by all accounts, the band didn't get a chance to record any... possibly.  Jimmy saying he couldn't "find" any doesn't necessarily equate to there being none, but it doesn't equate to a tacit admission of one's existence either; Jimmy is such a man of mystery and not prone to disclose anything he doesn't want to, there may well be a multi-track from '77 but he's maybe too proud to say it contained awful playing on his part that he would rather not see released, but then again, probably not.

There's one good way to find out for sure, someone ask Kevin 'Brickwall' Shirley; he went through and digitized all of the multi-tracks back in 2002, and mentioned in an interview about some of the later shows he heard not exactly being great... could he be referring to a '77 show, or even an '80 show?

Ask and you will receive...

[NealKenneth]

All the shows Kevin Shirley worked on our accounted for...but did Jimmy give him all the shows he had?  Who knows!

I guess the problem with all this is that we're dealing with an imprecise word ("find") from a man who has a history of being secretive in the first place.  The man likes to surprise.