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Allegations of Plagiarism

LedNoodle

By LedNoodle
in Led Zeppelin Newbies

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wabana

wabana

Posted
Posted
What's a maaaaaaaaaaaatttter here?

I thought you were doing a Joe Dolce impersonation there!

I just listened to the Small Faces 'You Need Loving' from the earlier posted YouTube link, that's outrageous! Plant should be ashamed of himself.

To get back to the recognition argument, I think the point here is that if a band does a thinly veiled copy of someone else's song then the band gets an arrangement credit but the original songwriting credit still remains.

For example, I'm saying Jake Holmes was royally screwed. The Yardbirds and LZ did arrangements of his song, not wholly new songs.

A recent example - REM's take on 'Pale Blue Eyes' owes only the lyrics to the original song, (new drum, guitar and bass parts) but they still credit the original songwriter, not themselves - which is proper AND correct.

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Fresh Garbage

Fresh Garbage

Posted
Posted
I thought you were doing a Joe Dolce impersonation there!

I just listened to the Small Faces 'You Need Loving' from the earlier posted YouTube link, that's outrageous! Plant should be ashamed of himself.

To get back to the recognition argument, I think the point here is that if a band does a thinly veiled copy of someone else's song then the band gets an arrangement credit but the original songwriting credit still remains.

For example, I'm saying Jake Holmes was royally screwed. The Yardbirds and LZ did arrangements of his song, not wholly new songs.

A recent example - REM's take on 'Pale Blue Eyes' owes only the lyrics to the original song, (new drum, guitar and bass parts) but they still credit the original songwriter, not themselves - which is proper AND correct.

Plant was a huge fan of Steve Marriot and the Small Faces. before Zeppelin he was known to be found hanging around the band like a groupie. Steve Marriot and Ronnie Lane also claimed song writing credits for "You Need Loving" so they are just as guilty!

I know Dixon sued Zeppelin first but he was just as angry at Merriot and lane as well. not to sure if he ever got around to sueing the Faces though.

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beatbo

beatbo

Posted
Posted
Plant was a huge fan of Steve Marriot and the Small Faces. before Zeppelin he was known to be found hanging around the band like a groupie. Steve Marriot and Ronnie Lane also claimed song writing credits for "You Need Loving" so they are just as guilty!

I know Dixon sued Zeppelin first but he was just as angry at Merriot and lane as well. not to sure if he ever got around to sueing the Faces though.

small faces: the young mods' forgotten story by paolo hewitt (1995, acid jazz books).

"whole lotta love" by led zeppelin was nicked off that album,' marriott pointed out. 'percy plant was a big fan. he used to be at all the small faces gigs. we did a gig with the yardbirds which he was at and jimmy page asked me what that number was we did. "'you need loving'," i said, "it's a muddy waters thing" which it really is, so they both knew it, and percy used to come to the gigs whenever we played in kidderminster or stowbridge, where he came from. he was always saying he was going to get this group together. he was another nuisance. he kept coming into the dressing room, just another little mod kid. we used to say, "that kid's here again." anyway we used to play this number and it became a stock opener after that album. After we broke up they took it and revamped it. good luck to them. it was only old percy who'd had his eyes on it. he sang it the same, phrased it the same, even the stops at the end were the same, they just put a different rhythm to it.' he laughs. 'for years and years i would hear it come on the radio while driving in america, and i would think, "go on, my son," until one day i thought, "fucking hell, that's us, that is. the bastards!"'

'

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DragonOfDarkness

DragonOfDarkness

Posted
Posted

I love it. :lol:

When you're successful everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell everyone else that you suck. Let's see... who was more successful? The Faces or Zeppelin?

I guarantee you in 100 years nobody will remember The Faces and people will still be talking about Led Zeppelin.

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beatbo

beatbo

Posted
Posted
I love it. :lol:

When you're successful everyone comes out of the woodwork to tell everyone else that you suck. Let's see... who was more successful? The Faces or Zeppelin?

I guarantee you in 100 years nobody will remember The Faces and people will still be talking about Led Zeppelin.

i think everyone here loves led zeppelin....

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beatbo

beatbo

Posted
Posted
Hi all,

What was your first clue? :lol:

I'd would have loved to ask Willie(RIP) and Marriott, what did the middle section of WLL have to do with you? :blink::D

KB

hi, KB

that sounds kinda nasty-if i'm wrong, please forgive me. are you feeling more emotional than usual about this issue? so far, it reads like a fairly civil discussion to me, but i might not be right about that.

for example, my posting of something steve marriot is quoted as saying is not indicitive of my own feelings. however, the small faces get mentioned all the time when this subject comes up and no one ever posts marriot's statements about it. no matter how many more records zeppelin sold than willie, muddy, or marriot, everybody deserves their due. willie didn't write the theremin section-he doesn't get the entire copyright, either (nor did he or his daughter ask for it). he got a 5th, right after page, plant, jones, and bohnam. marriot didn't sue zeppelin, he sang the same words he heard muddy waters sing. he was being imitated by a fan-robert plant. page was obviously a fan as well, having considered him as a vocalist prior to robert.

to repeat: if you weren't meaning to sound nasty, i apologize. if you were, so noted.

beat

edit to add: i almost forgot-jake holmes isn't some poor bum on the street. any man who wrote the commercial jingle 'i'm a pepper' for dr. pepper (among hundreds of others) surely has a few bones in his pocket and could make some legal motions if he wanted to.

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zepyep

zepyep

Posted
Posted

Hi all,

hi, KB

that sounds kinda nasty-if i'm wrong, please forgive me. are you feeling more emotional than usual about this issue? so far, it reads like a fairly civil discussion to me, but i might not be right about that.

I have nothing to forgive you for.You have been,and always will be a valued member of this board.At 'least' to me,and I *think* to others.

for example, my posting of something steve marriot is quoted as saying is not indicitive of my own feelings. however, the small faces get mentioned all the time when this subject comes up and no one ever posts marriot's statements about it. no matter how many more records zeppelin sold than willie, muddy, or marriot, everybody deserves their due. willie didn't write the theremin section-he doesn't get the entire copyright, either (nor did he or his daughter ask for it). he got a 5th, right after page, plant, jones, and bohnam. marriot didn't sue zeppelin, he sang the same words he heard muddy waters sing. he was being imitated by a fan-robert plant. page was obviously a fan as well, having considered him as a vocalist prior to robert.

I know,the,knuckle-dragger comment(mine) was NOT directed at you.Please accept my apologies. Can I say this,without lamblast?Willie,Muddy and the whole borrowed,begged and copied,either whole sale,or bits and pieces.just like books/authors/poems/poets.so why did Willie,settle out of court?Atlantics lawyer?Perhaps.Did Marriot,play royalties?That,I would like to know,...

to repeat: if you weren't meaning to sound nasty, i apologize. if you were, so noted.

Stop it!Let's go have a beer,or 12,or,...taxi!!!! :D

KB("I'd like to teach the world to sing,...")

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swandown

swandown

Posted
Posted
Steve Marriott: 'percy plant was a big fan. he used to be at all the small faces gigs. we did a gig with the yardbirds which he was at and jimmy page asked me what that number was we did. "'you need loving'," i said

Soooooo.....Marriott is claiming that Robert Plant attended a Yardbirds concert on the very night that Jimmy decided to steal "Whole Lotta Love"?

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Detigers09

Detigers09

Posted
Posted
Some of the others that have posted in this thread however... <_<

I love Led Zeppelin, but there is a difference between love and worship. I have a feeling that if the band had decided to murder someone, people on this board defend them to the death. I can admit the mistakes I've made in my life, but apparently Page, Plant, Jones, and Bonham never made one.

The fact is that these bands started in the mid-late 60s based on blues rock were taking music that was out of the mainstream at the time and putting it on radio stations and into the mainstream. Most of them credited their influences more than Led Zeppelin did. It's just a fact; it doesn't take away from their musicality, and it doesn't even matter now that most of their influences have either spoken out or are no longer alive.

Just because you are a fan doesn't mean you can't recognize where the band was wrong.

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DragonOfDarkness

DragonOfDarkness

Posted
Posted

Back the truck up for a second. I never said what they did wasn't wrong. I will however reiterate what I said much earlier in this thread. All bands have in some way shape or form taken from those that have come before them. This is nothing new. To pigeonhole Led Zeppelin as the only band on Earth that has ever done this is doing them a huge disservice. Bands have been and will continue to do this as long as music is upon this planet. Unless some future generation comes out and makes an outright law that forbids bands from borrowing or even outright covering other bands this practice will continue.

Get off it already. Sheesh... :rolleyes:

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wabana

wabana

Posted
Posted
Back the truck up for a second. I never said what they did wasn't wrong. I will however reiterate what I said much earlier in this thread. All bands have in some way shape or form taken from those that have come before them. This is nothing new. To pigeonhole Led Zeppelin as the only band on Earth that has ever done this is doing them a huge disservice. Bands have been and will continue to do this as long as music is upon this planet. Unless some future generation comes out and makes an outright law that forbids bands from borrowing or even outright covering other bands this practice will continue.

Get off it already. Sheesh... :rolleyes:

None of us ever said what you're implying above.

Detigers is right, there's a level on fandom on this board that borders on fanatic and that's very sad.

You can appreciate the band and their music without being brown noses with clouded goggles.

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NickZepp

NickZepp

Posted
Posted

This thread needs to die. Did Zeppelin nick a few things and "steal" some ideas from others? Yes but so has every other creative musician. Every major musician since the dawn of music has stolen from whatever inspired them and usually from other good musicians. If it didn't happen you wouldn't have music. And it's probably the same way in most things in life. A lot of movies steal the same plots. Doesn't make the good movies suck.

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Evster2012

Evster2012

Posted
Posted

I think a lot of the passion some defenders (of both perspectives) exhibit here stems not necessarily for what was said in this particular thread. This topic has been heatedly discuused in many threads on the old board, and typically the usual suspects face off yet again. So what you have, those who are wondering what the hell is going on, is just another round in a long fought debate, so to speak. Sometimes when people of differing opinions have made their case to one another again and again, they tend to get shorter and shorter with each other. I know I've been guilty of that on at LEAST one occasion! ;):lol:

*edoted for typos*

*Doh!*

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beatbo

beatbo

Posted
Posted

i, for one, love the subject of song composition. in rock and roll especially, you are talking about influences first and foremost. after that, you can drift into publishing and copyright, and really get your eyes open.

the first composers to put wind in my sails oh so long ago were lennon and mccartney. without question, they wrote the most lucrative song catalogue in music history. it is the perfect story to begin with: two english boys, growing up trying to listen to pop radio when there really wasn't any, hoping to catch american rock and roll as it drifted slowly over the ocean. these boys were hardcore music fanatics-known to chase down any guitar player that knew the secret chord in a coasters or larry williams song. they studied, collected and played all the time. they were the local rock and roll king nuts and knew how to slide a note or drop a beat to nick a measure or a piece of melody. as evidenced by how much of their publishing is owned by paul and yoko, they couldn't grasp how anybody could copyright 8 notes. neither could thier manager-hence the whole northern song empire burning like the hindenburg on a now famous album cover.

if there was ever a manifesto for the advent of zeppelin, it included not getting burned. peter grant was made to see by his guitar-slinging property that there was NO WAY this new group was going to trot around the universe 9 or 10 months a year, spend the other month or two in the studio and go home with NOTHING (like the yardbirds). if any of you look at any early fifties or sixties groups, none made money and they all went broke. you had to write the songs......

one poor portion of this lesson is the fact that these british groups loved american music, and the american music publishers were the most crooked in the world-without a doubt. want to talk about heinous? "want your record played on the radio? then i'm a co-writer on 'maybelline', chuck".

the most excellent lesson buried deep in this subject is that you are on a quest for genuis-how did a song that moves the passion in your heart for the rest of your life get written. as you delve deeper, you will find all the influences, all the masters, all the pied pipers that moved your boys. they are a treasure trove of some of the best music ever made-soak it. let it enrich your empathy and comprehension. and, if you're smart, your music collection.

it was 40 years ago, folks. some things happened all the way around to everybody involved that might be changed if they or we had the chance. but the music is still standing-original music, to be sure. no one else could have written, recorded, or performed it exactly the same, no matter what anybody said then or anybody says now. so really, there's nothing for anyone to get nasty about.

that's a fact.....

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