TypeO Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 The mind boggles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs. Plant Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 The mind boggles. Anyone who agrees/defends partial birth abortion should be shot. i hate saying that, but i feel that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperDave Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 That was absolutely deplorarable. Forget about revoking the doctor's medical license. He should be shot as well as some of his co-workers involved in this despicable act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypeO Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 :lolo: I'd settle for a fair trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katuschka Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I'd be surprised as well, because assuming that the people who DO defent abortion in general terms will also defent this particular case is the same as assuming that people who eat meat will automatically advocate any extraordinarily brutal practice of slaughtering. Pro-choice? Yes - in a regular hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manderlyh Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 I've got to agree with Kat. This is a disgusting case. If a baby is born alive, there is NO question whether it is a living person who should have all the rights of said humans. I think that Gonzalez person should be in jail for murder. S/he intentionally ended the life of a person who was born. I'm pro-choice, but I do believe that there is a point where the life should not be taken--under any circumstances. I personally would never have an abortion, but I think it's an important choice for women of the world to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 You didn't think anyone would argue over a case like this did you TypeO? This one's obviously black and white... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TypeO Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 You didn't think anyone would argue over a case like this did you TypeO? This one's obviously black and white... Never know WHAT you might catch when you go fishing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 It seems they terminated the pregnancy at the end of the 2nd trimester, which would have ended at 24 weeks. But during a live birth, if the fetus is viable, Florida law states that "no person who performs or induces the termination of pregnancy shall fail to use that degree of professional skill, care, and diligence to preserve the life and health of the fetus which such person would be required to exercise in order to preserve the life and health of any fetus intended to be born and not aborted." So even if the mother intends to abort, if her fetus is born live and viable, everyone must exercise the same level of care that they would for any prematurely born baby. You have a higher level of care required for a prematurely born baby, and should treat this situation as a life-threatening emergency. Preemies are at much higher risk for survival than normal healthy births. Even if you are an unlicensed caregiver, if you assist at this kind of birth, you must treat the fetus as if he or she is a premature live birth. At that point, the preemie belongs in the neonatal intensive care unit (NICU) in a hospital, not a trash bag. You would need to call the paramedics to transport this prematurely born baby to the NICU unit at the nearest hospital immediately, even if you were an average person without a license under these circumstances where there is no attending physician present. At this point it is all first aid. You just have to do the right thing quickly. Also call the attending physician immediately if you are able to contact him or her. While you are waiting for the paramedics to arrive, stop the bleeding where the umbilical cord is cut. While you are on the phone with the emergency dispatcher at 911, follow their directions on how to properly clamp the umbilical cord and general first aid procedures for a newborn preemie. The clinic should have sterile plastic clamps available. Make sure the preemie is getting enough oxygen and not turning blue while you are waiting. Cutting the umbilical cord too soon after birth can cause the baby to lose too much oxygen too quickly. http://www.cordclamp.com/ExpressCCPictArtGMMred.pdf Rest in peace, Shanice. The 2008 Florida Statutes Title XXIX PUBLIC HEALTH Chapter 390 TERMINATION OF PREGNANCIES View Entire Chapter 390.0111 Termination of pregnancies.-- (1) TERMINATION IN THIRD TRIMESTER; WHEN ALLOWED.--No termination of pregnancy shall be performed on any human being in the third trimester of pregnancy unless: (a) Two physicians certify in writing to the fact that, to a reasonable degree of medical probability, the termination of pregnancy is necessary to save the life or preserve the health of the pregnant woman; or (b ) The physician certifies in writing to the medical necessity for legitimate emergency medical procedures for termination of pregnancy in the third trimester, and another physician is not available for consultation. (2) PERFORMANCE BY PHYSICIAN REQUIRED.--No termination of pregnancy shall be performed at any time except by a physician as defined in s. 390.011. (3) CONSENTS REQUIRED.--A termination of pregnancy may not be performed or induced except with the voluntary and informed written consent of the pregnant woman or, in the case of a mental incompetent, the voluntary and informed written consent of her court-appointed guardian. (a) Except in the case of a medical emergency, consent to a termination of pregnancy is voluntary and informed only if: 1. The physician who is to perform the procedure, or the referring physician, has, at a minimum, orally, in person, informed the woman of: a. The nature and risks of undergoing or not undergoing the proposed procedure that a reasonable patient would consider material to making a knowing and willful decision of whether to terminate a pregnancy. b. The probable gestational age of the fetus at the time the termination of pregnancy is to be performed. c. The medical risks to the woman and fetus of carrying the pregnancy to term. 2. Printed materials prepared and provided by the department have been provided to the pregnant woman, if she chooses to view these materials, including: a. A description of the fetus. b. A list of agencies that offer alternatives to terminating the pregnancy. c. Detailed information on the availability of medical assistance benefits for prenatal care, childbirth, and neonatal care. 3. The woman acknowledges in writing, before the termination of pregnancy, that the information required to be provided under this subsection has been provided. Nothing in this paragraph is intended to prohibit a physician from providing any additional information which the physician deems material to the woman's informed decision to terminate her pregnancy. (b ) In the event a medical emergency exists and a physician cannot comply with the requirements for informed consent, a physician may terminate a pregnancy if he or she has obtained at least one corroborative medical opinion attesting to the medical necessity for emergency medical procedures and to the fact that to a reasonable degree of medical certainty the continuation of the pregnancy would threaten the life of the pregnant woman. In the event no second physician is available for a corroborating opinion, the physician may proceed but shall document reasons for the medical necessity in the patient's medical records. © Violation of this subsection by a physician constitutes grounds for disciplinary action under s. 458.331 or s. 459.015. Substantial compliance or reasonable belief that complying with the requirements of informed consent would threaten the life or health of the patient is a defense to any action brought under this paragraph. (4) STANDARD OF MEDICAL CARE TO BE USED DURING VIABILITY.--If a termination of pregnancy is performed during viability, no person who performs or induces the termination of pregnancy shall fail to use that degree of professional skill, care, and diligence to preserve the life and health of the fetus which such person would be required to exercise in order to preserve the life and health of any fetus intended to be born and not aborted. "Viability" means that stage of fetal development when the life of the unborn child may with a reasonable degree of medical probability be continued indefinitely outside the womb. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, the woman's life and health shall constitute an overriding and superior consideration to the concern for the life and health of the fetus when such concerns are in conflict. (5) PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION PROHIBITED; EXCEPTION.-- (a) No physician shall knowingly perform a partial-birth abortion. (b ) A woman upon whom a partial-birth abortion is performed may not be prosecuted under this section for a conspiracy to violate the provisions of this section. © This subsection shall not apply to a partial-birth abortion that is necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury, provided that no other medical procedure would suffice for that purpose. (6) EXPERIMENTATION ON FETUS PROHIBITED; EXCEPTION.--No person shall use any live fetus or live, premature infant for any type of scientific, research, laboratory, or other kind of experimentation either prior to or subsequent to any termination of pregnancy procedure except as necessary to protect or preserve the life and health of such fetus or premature infant. (7) FETAL REMAINS.--Fetal remains shall be disposed of in a sanitary and appropriate manner and in accordance with standard health practices, as provided by rule of the Department of Health. Failure to dispose of fetal remains in accordance with department rules is a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. (8) REFUSAL TO PARTICIPATE IN TERMINATION PROCEDURE.--Nothing in this section shall require any hospital or any person to participate in the termination of a pregnancy, nor shall any hospital or any person be liable for such refusal. No person who is a member of, or associated with, the staff of a hospital, nor any employee of a hospital or physician in which or by whom the termination of a pregnancy has been authorized or performed, who shall state an objection to such procedure on moral or religious grounds shall be required to participate in the procedure which will result in the termination of pregnancy. The refusal of any such person or employee to participate shall not form the basis for any disciplinary or other recriminatory action against such person. (9) EXCEPTION.--The provisions of this section shall not apply to the performance of a procedure which terminates a pregnancy in order to deliver a live child. (10) PENALTIES FOR VIOLATION.--Except as provided in subsections (3) and (7): (a) Any person who willfully performs, or actively participates in, a termination of pregnancy procedure in violation of the requirements of this section commits a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. (b ) Any person who performs, or actively participates in, a termination of pregnancy procedure in violation of the provisions of this section which results in the death of the woman commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. (11) CIVIL ACTION PURSUANT TO PARTIAL-BIRTH ABORTION; RELIEF.-- (a) The father, if married to the mother at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion, and, if the mother has not attained the age of 18 years at the time she receives a partial-birth abortion, the maternal grandparents of the fetus may, in a civil action, obtain appropriate relief, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff's criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion. (b ) In a civil action under this section, appropriate relief includes: 1. Monetary damages for all injuries, psychological and physical, occasioned by the violation of subsection (5). 2. Damages equal to three times the cost of the partial-birth abortion. History.--s. 1, ch. 79-302; s. 1, ch. 80-208; s. 6, ch. 88-97; s. 6, ch. 91-223; s. 64, ch. 91-224; s. 694, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 97-151; s. 1, ch. 98-1; s. 201, ch. 99-13. Note.--Former s. 390.001. http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index....90/titl0390.htm TAMPA, Florida — Eighteen and pregnant, Sycloria Williams went to an abortion clinic outside Miami and paid $1,200 for Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique to terminate her 23-week pregnancy. Three days later, she sat in a reclining chair, medicated to dilate her cervix and otherwise get her ready for the procedure. Only Renelique didn't arrive in time. According to Williams and the Florida Department of Health, she went into labor and delivered a live baby girl. What Williams and the Health Department say happened next has shocked people on both sides of the abortion debate: One of the clinic's owners, who has no medical license, cut the infant's umbilical cord. Williams says the woman placed the baby in a plastic biohazard bag and threw it out. The clinic contacted Renelique. Two hours later, he still hadn't shown up. Williams went into labor and delivered the baby. "She came face to face with a human being," Pennekamp said. "And that changed everything." The complaint says one of the clinic owners, Belkis Gonzalez came in and cut the umbilical cord with scissors, then placed the baby in a plastic bag, and the bag in a trash can. Williams' lawsuit offers a cruder account: She says Gonzalez knocked the baby off the recliner chair where she had given birth, onto the floor. The baby's umbilical cord was not clamped, allowing her to bleed out. Gonzalez scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag and threw it out. No working telephone number could be found for Gonzalez, and an attorney who has represented the clinic in the past did not return a message. At 23 weeks, an otherwise healthy fetus would have a slim but legitimate chance of survival. Quadruplets born at 23 weeks last year at The Nebraska Medical Center survived. An autopsy determined Williams' baby — she named her Shanice — had filled her lungs with air, meaning she had been born alive, according to the Department of Health. The cause of death was listed as extreme prematurity. The Department of Health believes Renelique committed malpractice by failing to ensure that licensed personnel would be present when Williams was there, among other missteps. The department wants the Board of Medicine, a separate agency, to permanently revoke Renelique's license, among other penalties. His license is currently restricted, permitting him to only perform abortions when another licensed physician is present and can review his medical records. Should prosecutors file murder charges, they'd have to prove the baby was born alive, said Robert Batey, a professor of criminal law at Stetson University College of Law in Gulfport. The defense might contend that the child would have died anyway, but most courts would not allow that argument, he said. "Hastening the death of an individual who is terminally ill is still considered causing the death of that individual," Batey said. "And I think a court would rule similarly in this type of case." http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488644,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanna be drummer Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Never know WHAT you might catch when you go fishing... True dat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stargroves Tangie Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 Whether you're pro-choice or not, any decent human being should be sickened by what the clinic did to that poor baby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manderlyh Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 CNN News story MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A doctor's license was revoked Friday in the case of a teenager who planned to have an abortion but instead gave birth to a baby she says was killed when clinic staffers put it into a plastic bag and threw it in the trash. Pierre Jean-Jacques Renelique, right, and his attorney, Joseph Harrison, at the hearing. The doctor, Pierre Jean-Jacques Renelique, also is the subject of a criminal investigation. Renelique was not present when the baby was born, but the Florida Medical Board upheld Department of Health allegations that he falsified medical records, inappropriately delegated tasks to unlicensed personnel and committed malpractice. Joseph Harrison, the attorney representing Renelique at the license revocation hearing in Tampa, said Renelique has not decided whether to appeal. The state attorney's office, meanwhile, said its criminal investigation into the incident is ongoing and no charges have been filed. A fetus born alive cannot be put to death even if its mother intended to have an abortion, police said when the incident occurred in 2006. The baby's mother, Sycloria Williams, sued Renelique, the clinic and its staff in January, seeking damages. She alleges in her suit that "she witnessed the murder of her daughter" and said she "sustained severe emotional distress, shock and psychic trauma which have resulted in discernible bodily injury." "This is not about a pot of gold," said Tom Pennekamp, her attorney. "What this is about is right and wrong and making a statement, making sure it doesn't happen to other young women." According to the suit, Williams, then 18, discovered while being treated for a fall that she was 23 weeks pregnant. She went to a clinic to get an abortion on the morning of July 20, 2006, after receiving medication and instructions the previous day. Renelique was not at the clinic, however, and Williams was told to wait for him. She was given two pills and told they would make her ill. When she complained of feeling ill, clinic staff members gave her a robe and told her to lie down in a patient room, the suit says. Renelique was still not present when Williams "felt a large pain" and delivered a baby girl, according to the suit. "The staff began screaming and pandemonium ensued. Sycloria watched in horror and shock as her baby writhed with her chest rising and falling as she breathed." Don't Miss Read the Department of Health complaint (PDF) A clinic co-owner entered the room and used a pair of shears to cut the baby's umbilical cord, the suit said. She "then scooped up the baby and placed the live baby, placenta and afterbirth in a red plastic biohazard bag, which she sealed, and then threw bag and the baby in a trash can." Staff at the clinic did not call 911 or seek medical assistance for Williams or the baby, the suit said. Renelique arrived at the clinic about an hour later and gave Williams a shot to put her to sleep. "She awoke after the procedure and was sent home still in complete shock," the suit said. Police were notified of the incident by an anonymous caller who told them the baby was born alive and disposed of. "The complainant [Williams] observed the baby moving and gasping for air for approximately five minutes," according to a police affidavit requesting a search warrant for the clinic. Two search warrants found nothing, but officers executing a third warrant "found the decomposing body of a baby in a cardboard box in a closet," the suit said. The baby was linked to Williams through DNA testing, the lawsuit said. An autopsy showed it had filled its lungs with air prior to death. Documents from the state Department of Health said its cause of death was determined to be "extreme prematurity." Fewer than 1 percent of babies are born at less than 28 weeks, according to the March of Dimes, a nonprofit organization aimed at reducing premature births, birth defects and infant mortality. Infants born at that stage may survive, but require treatment with oxygen, other medical help and mechanical assistance to help them breathe. They are too immature to suck or swallow and so must be fed intravenously. Babies born before about 32 weeks of gestation face the highest risk of health problems, the March of Dimes said. Williams' lawsuit seeks damages from Renelique, the clinic and its staff. It claims that clinic records were falsified to say only that Williams underwent an abortion. Williams filed the suit individually and "as personal representative of the estate of Shanice Denise Osbourne, deceased," the suit said. The medical board's action Friday came at the request of the Florida Department of Health, which filed an order in February 2007 seeking emergency restrictions on Renelique's license. Department documents list many of the same allegations as Williams' lawsuit. "Dr. Renelique's failure to practice medicine with that level of care, skill and treatment that is recognized as being acceptable, as well as his willingness to falsify medical records, poses a serious and immediate danger to the public," the health department said. Renelique did not respond to the health department or dispute the facts it alleged, department spokeswoman Eulinda Jackson said Friday. Williams has declined to speak publicly about the case, said Pennekamp, her attorney. She suffers from post-traumatic stress because of the experience, he said. 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TypeO Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 Separated at birth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUCK'EYE' DOC Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I've got to agree with Kat. This is a disgusting case. If a baby is born alive, there is NO question whether it is a living person who should have all the rights of said humans. I think that Gonzalez person should be in jail for murder. S/he intentionally ended the life of a person who was born. I'm pro-choice, but I do believe that there is a point where the life should not be taken--under any circumstances. I personally would never have an abortion, but I think it's an important choice for women of the world to have. AND THAT POINT IS AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Fla. doctor loses license after botched abortion By CHRISTINE ARMARIO – 18 hours ago TAMPA, Fla. (AP) — The Board of Medicine revoked the license of a Florida doctor on Friday accused of medical malpractice in a botched abortion in which a live baby was delivered, but ended up dead in a cardboard box. The board found Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique in violation of Florida statutes by committing medical malpractice, delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel, and failing to keep an accurate medical record. Renelique and his attorney declined to comment after the hearing. The Department of Health said Renelique was scheduled to perform an abortion on a teenager who was 23 weeks pregnant in 2006. Sycloria Williams had been given drugs in advance to dilate her cervix. According to the complaint, she gave birth at a Hialeah clinic after waiting hours for Renelique to arrive. The complaint said one of the clinic owners put the baby in a bag that was thrown away. Police found the infant's decomposing remains a week later. A medical examiner determined the cause of death was extreme prematurity, the complaint states. At Friday's hearing, Renelique told the board of his lifelong quest to be a doctor. He said there are generations of physicians in his family, and that he decided to follow the same path after seeing his father treat patients. Renelique described saving a woman's life during the second year of his medical residency in Haiti. He later left his home country to work and train in the United States. It was never his intention to do abortions, he said. "That was not part of my goals when I came to Florida," he said. "But I had to do it to survive." Though the proceeding was solely to determine whether Renelique should be disciplined, the physician revealed more details about what happened on the summer day when Williams came in for an abortion. Renelique said he met the patient a day before the procedure. According to the Department of Health, Renelique gave Williams laminaria, a drug that dilates the cervix. He said he told her to come in the next day at 10 a.m. "for safety," and planned to later examine her before the abortion. Renelique said that as he was en route to the clinic, he was called to treat another patient who was bleeding. When he arrived to treat Williams, she was bleeding, but no one told him she'd already delivered, Renelique said. He began the procedure, and realized there was no fetus. A sonogram detected nothing. "That's when one of the employees came to me and said, 'Dr. Renelique, what are you looking for?" he recalled. "I said, 'I'm looking for a fetus.' And she said, 'What fetus?'" The employee then told him that Williams had already delivered. In a lawsuit, Williams says that Belkis Gonzalez, one of the clinic owners, had knocked the infant off the chair where she had given birth, scooped the baby, placenta and afterbirth into a red plastic biohazard bag, and threw it out. During the board's questioning, Dr. Elizabeth D. Tucker, an obstetrician-gynecologist from Pensacola, tested Renelique's medical knowledge, asking him about three different types of medical forceps and whether he had them. She also held up three metal instruments, different from the ones she had named. One included a metal rod with an arrow at the tip. Tucker asked Renelique if he also had that. He said yes. "For the record, these are from my antique collection," she said later. "We don't use these in terminations." Renelique's attorney, Joseph Harrison, later requested that his client view the instruments more closely, which the board allowed. Renelique said he had never seen or used the spear in his life. Harrison said Renelique expected the board to uphold the current restriction on his license, which prohibits him from performing abortions unless another physician is present. The Department of Health recommended that his license be suspended. But the board decided to revoke it, which means he will not be able to practice medicine in Florida. Dr. Jason Rosenberg, a board member, said Renelique showed callous disregard toward Williams. "You acted as though you had no interest in treating this patient," he said. No criminal charges have been filed in the case, but the Miami-Dade State Attorney's Office is investigating. On Friday, several Republican legislators called on the office to prosecute the person responsible for the baby's death. "These events are nothing short of murder," state Rep. Anitere Flores of Miami said in a statement. "It is our duty to call for immediate charges to be filed to ensure that no other young women become victims of this clinic." http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...AAY5MAD966AQ5O7 It would have been better if the clinic had been located near a hospital where they could have transported the prematurely born baby to the NICU right away. There should be a registered nurse or physician present at the NICU at any given moment. Although they intended to abort this pregnancy, the result of their attempts was to induce premature labor. There is never a guarantee of survival of anyone during childbirth. There is always a risk that the mother or the baby will not survive. You want to keep it smooth sailing as much as you can. Your ultimate goal is a mother and baby who are both healthy and happy. As for B. Gonzalez, she was unlicensed. Did she even recognize that a live birth had occurred? Or did she simply act on the mistaken belief that she was properly disposing of dead fetal remains? As for the question of abortion, there may be times when it is medically necessary. You need to be flexible enough for those situations. Otherwise, the fewer abortions the better because things always tend to get a little blurry in childbirth. You want to aim for a positive outcome. In this case, the young woman made an apparent hasty decision. She suddenly discovered that she was pregnant when she was seen by her doctor after she had fallen. It was the wrong choice to abort, as she soon regretted her decision. Her doctor should have cautioned her if the abortion was not medically necessary. As we have seen, she was able to deliver a live birth. Especially in this situation where she only had a week to decide from the time she discovered she was pregnant, it was very easy to make a mistake in judgement. For an 18 year old woman who may have had no prior history of pregnancy to have only a week to decide to terminate the first one, I can imagine that she was under some pressure and may not have fully considered the risks. These are hard choices, but I think that the outcome would have been happier if she had born her baby to full term rather than choosing to abort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 I've got to agree with Kat. This is a disgusting case. If a baby is born alive, there is NO question whether it is a living person who should have all the rights of said humans. I think that Gonzalez person should be in jail for murder. S/he intentionally ended the life of a person who was born. I'm pro-choice, but I do believe that there is a point where the life should not be taken--under any circumstances. I personally would never have an abortion, but I think it's an important choice for women of the world to have. I agree with you, Mandy, on everything that you said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
led_zep_girl_92 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Abortion is a very difficult and provoking topic, but in case of rape or any other case of sexual abuse I´d say I´m pro-choice. I guess, that nobody can imagine how a women feels, who got pregnant through a rape, and that must be horrible. The child will have no "real" father and nobody knows, if the woman is able to create a normal and loving relationship to a child concepted through a man raping her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manderlyh Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 This news story is the epitome of why I am pro-choice. It's an example that takes the legal abortions back to what commonly happened before they were legal--women having terribly botched abortions with people present who were NOT qualified to do such procedures. I don't care why the doctor wasn't in that clinic. He had a patient who he has started the abortion process--that patient was HIS responsibility. If you have a patient who is seeing you and you're in the middle of a medical procedure, you had better be in that clinic when you are supposed to--THAT'S YOUR JOB! I don't care WHY that Gonzalez person put that baby in a biohazard bag. THERE'S NO WAY YOU COULD MISTAKE A LIVE BABY FOR A DEAD ONE IF IT'S BREATHING! I don't think a small child would make this mistake. It's illegal to dispose of a dead human in a biohazard bag--counties and states explicitly say that you must bury them! At 24 weeks justation, that baby was a BABY--not a ball fo cells or a fetus, (which brings me to a totally different abortion debate that I'm not touching today). Women had abortions before they were legal in the United States. They had them everywhere in the world before they were legal--and probably since the beginning of time. Many women died when they got back-alley abortions. Many fetuses survived abortion attempts, having injuries that could even be mentally disabling and physically disabling from such botched attempts. We had women dying in back alleyways and their families didn't know where they were. We had women giving birth to children who were the product of rape and incest; and there are children in this world today that live their lives knowing that they were the product of rape and incest. We had women in this world who were accidentally pregnant though they knew that childbirth would kill them. Though I personally do no believe that I could ever have an abortion, I know plenty of people who have had them. Many of them regret the choice they made, but at the same time, they weren't even close to being able to raise a child in a way that every child deserves to be raised. Many people I know say that their abortions were "the best choice I could make at that time." With legal abortions, we are supposed to have qualified medical personnel to attend to such procedures. With qualified medical personnel, the chances of these horribly botched procedures will be greatly reduced. I am a Pro-life advocate for this reason--for the safety of our women, (this is NOT the only reason I'm an advocate, but it is the biggest). PS--I don't think that abortions are a form of birth control that we should use--we have extraordinary birth control these days--things that women could have never dreamed about 60 years ago...I think that if you're having sex and not attempting to use any birth control, you're stupid if you think you won't end up with an unplanned pregnancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manderlyh Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Abortion is a very difficult and provoking topic, but in case of rape or any other case of sexual abuse I´d say I´m pro-choice. I guess, that nobody can imagine how a women feels, who got pregnant through a rape, and that must be horrible. The child will have no "real" father and nobody knows, if the woman is able to create a normal and loving relationship to a child concepted through a man raping her. I honestly believe that women should be able to get an abortion if they are pregnant because of rape or any other type of sexual abuse. I've been fortunate enough to have never experienced any abuse of this type, but I can't even imagine what it would feel like if you had a child growing in your body that was conceived in such a despicable manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 B. Gonzalez was not licensed. How would she determine if a prematurely born baby was breathing or not to know the difference between a live baby or dead remains? We don't even know if she had taken a first aid course. There was no mention of Advanced Cardiac Life Support (ACLS) or Basic Life Support (BLS) certification for her. She apparently did not have the sense to call 911 and get the paramedics, nor did anyone else in the clinic. And the doctor allowed them to work under his auspices anyway. It was simply a very bad decision on the doctor's part to allow this young woman to abort in this clinic with unqualified staff, when he had another patient not on the same premises who required his attendance. She should at least have been in a hospital where other qualified staff could have attended her and properly handled the live birth of a preemie. That is why it is better to have abortion clinics near NICUs, to reduce fetal deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katuschka Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 In this case, the young woman made an apparent hasty decision. She suddenly discovered that she was pregnant when she was seen by her doctor after she had fallen. It was the wrong choice to abort, as she soon regretted her decision. Her doctor should have cautioned her if the abortion was not medically necessary. As we have seen, she was able to deliver a live birth. She was 23 weeks pregnant and hadn't have a clue? No wonder she got pregnant ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 You'd be surprised at what young women do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katuschka Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 You'd be surprised at what young women do. I don't think young women are the only people who are to blame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manderlyh Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 B. Gonzalez was not licensed. How would she determine if a prematurely born baby was breathing or not to know the difference between a live baby or dead remains? I can tell the difference between a live and dead baby, I'm sure--and I'm an English teacher. I also know that the remains of a baby cannot be just thrown into the trash. Get real. ...and you can't say that young women are the ones to blame. Though she did decide to get an abortion and she wasn't aware of it at 23 weeks, (which is mind boggling in itself), it wasn't her doing that the baby was born alive and that it was thrown into a bag to be left to die. Even if she knew what was going on, she was really drugged up. I've seen women who have been really drugged up in childbirth--they really have NO CLUE what's going on sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eternal light Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 For all we know B. Gonzalez was a total dummy. Who knows if she even graduated high school? Certainly the law in Florida requires her or anyone acting in her capacity to exercise a standard of professional care, so arguably she should have known. (4) STANDARD OF MEDICAL CARE TO BE USED DURING VIABILITY.--If a termination of pregnancy is performed during viability, no person who performs or induces the termination of pregnancy shall fail to use that degree of professional skill, care, and diligence to preserve the life and health of the fetus which such person would be required to exercise in order to preserve the life and health of any fetus intended to be born and not aborted. "Viability" means that stage of fetal development when the life of the unborn child may with a reasonable degree of medical probability be continued indefinitely outside the womb. Notwithstanding the provisions of this subsection, the woman's life and health shall constitute an overriding and superior consideration to the concern for the life and health of the fetus when such concerns are in conflict. -Florida statutes But did the licensed doctor who hired her check to see if she had current ACLS certification? She's not a licensed registered nurse or medical assistant. She could have been anyone's housekeeper who needed employment and showed up for work eager to help, not knowing the risks. She may only have been trained in limited procedures, such as disposing of dead fetal remains. She may not have recognized a live birth. You could hang a sign on the clinic, "Dummies At Work". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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