Gene Simmons vs NWA

[2bitnogoodjive]

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/gene-simmons-n-w-a/

[JohnOsbourne]

This is obviously a political issue.  It doesn't matter what Gene Simmon's or anyone else's opinion of rap is.  How many rap/hip-hop fans would call their music rock and roll?  I'd say very, very few.  So what is the real reason for wanting groups like NWA in the RnR Hall of Fame? 

[2bitnogoodjive]

36 minutes ago, JohnOsbourne said:

This is obviously a political issue.  It doesn't matter what Gene Simmon's or anyone else's opinion of rap is.  How many rap/hip-hop fans would call their music rock and roll?  I'd say very, very few.  So what is the real reason for wanting groups like NWA in the RnR Hall of Fame? 

Just wanted to point out that certain bands (Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, RATM, etc.) have used rap in their music.  Perhaps part of the reason to get them in the RnR HOF.

[kingzoso]

I like KISS and I like N.W.A. and Gene Simmons is more often than not, an obnoxious and totally self absorbed person, but I do think that he really does have a valid point. 

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (of which I have been to) is called the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for a reason.  If their was a Rap or Hip Hop Hall of Fame, obviously their would be very few, if any, real Rock and Roll bands admitted into it. 

If there was a "Music Hall of Fame", then any groups, bands or artists, etc... that made strong and significant contributions to MUSIC then those who are nominated and voted in deserve to be inducted into the "Music Hall of Fame". 

[Charles J. White]

How can NWA be in the "rock n roll hall of fame", it's a sham, good for NWA but the entire idea of the rock n roll hall of fame is dumb

[the chase]

It's already been made clear that Rap Disco and Hip Hop artists are eligible. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that gets in.. That's just sour grapes.. It's the artists that deserve to be in that are passed over year after year that I'm pissed for..

ELP ELO YES Jethro Tull Kansas The Cars Boston Foreigner BTO Styx Journey Kraftwerk Guess Who The Moody Blues... The Moody Blues.. Are not in . Rdiculous.. 

[SteveAJones]

The so called RnR HOF is nothing more than a meaningless tourist attraction.

[JohnOsbourne]

21 hours ago, 2bitnogoodjive said:

Just wanted to point out that certain bands (Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park, RATM, etc.) have used rap in their music.  Perhaps part of the reason to get them in the RnR HOF.

Sorry, not sure what your point is?  That nu-metal bands consciously adopted rap to try to get into the HOF, as opposed to just reflecting their particular milieu?  Doubtful, but that's not really what I'm getting at.  Whatever one thinks of these bands (I love RATM FWIW), they're clearly still rock bands and whatever eclectic influences they bring, their fans would surely view them *as* rock bands.  Just as hip-hop fans would view their music as rap and not as rock.  Gene Simmons is a serious asshole, but he's entirely right about this one-way direction.  Whoever's pushing to include rap bands in the Rock HOF clearly has an agenda.     

[JohnOsbourne]

13 hours ago, the chase said:

It's already been made clear that Rap Disco and Hip Hop artists are eligible. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that gets in.. That's just sour grapes.. It's the artists that deserve to be in that are passed over year after year that I'm pissed for..

ELP ELO YES Jethro Tull Kansas The Cars Boston Foreigner BTO Styx Journey Kraftwerk Guess Who The Moody Blues... The Moody Blues.. Are not in . Rdiculous.. 

I would say the fact that NWA is in and ELP and Yes are not is a good reason to begrudge them and whoever pushed for their entry over those other *rock* bands.

[the chase]

Just now, JohnOsbourne said:

I would say the fact that NWA is in and ELP and Yes are not is a good reason to begrudge them and whoever pushed for their entry over those other *rock* bands.

It's not NWA's fault that Yes didn't get in.. They had nothing to do with it.. 

[2bitnogoodjive]

1 hour ago, JohnOsbourne said:

Sorry, not sure what your point is?  That nu-metal bands consciously adopted rap to try to get into the HOF, as opposed to just reflecting their particular milieu?  Doubtful, but that's not really what I'm getting at.  Whatever one thinks of these bands (I love RATM FWIW), they're clearly still rock bands and whatever eclectic influences they bring, their fans would surely view them *as* rock bands.  Just as hip-hop fans would view their music as rap and not as rock.  Gene Simmons is a serious asshole, but he's entirely right about this one-way direction.  Whoever's pushing to include rap bands in the Rock HOF clearly has an agenda.     

Nothing really, just thought I would throw that out there as part of the discussion.  I am clueless as to why rap artists are being inducted  unless it's part of a political agenda as you say and I agree with the poster above that the HOF is meaningless.

[in_the_evening]

Not a huge Simmons fan, but he HAS a point.  It's interesting, my 15 year old son and his friends love the 80s music stations.  When I ask "what about rap", my son will reply "Rap is just one letter short of Crap".  Most of the kids his age don't like it.  I agree with Simmons, I don't get rap, I don't get how someone talking over a bass beat is rock, or talented for that matter.

[ScarletMacaw]

Contrary to what Ice Cube says rap is not rock and rock is a genre of music. Rap originally was a genre of storytelling/poetry. Some rap is music and some isn't. But none of it is rock. Elements of rap do show up in rock music going back to at least the early 80s; for example, Blondie incorporated rap into at least one of their songs. And rap songs have "sampled" rock...but that doesn't mean they are part of the same genre. ELO sampled classical. 

[the chase]

So what's the solution? Call it the Music Hall Of Fame.. ? Would they let the great Classical composers get in? Jazz artists? Country? Blues? 

I don't like the exclusionary attitude they have as it is.. They obviously have very little regard for prog or AOR artists.. Much like a particular magazine.. But I'm not going to get worked up that Donna Summer (R.I.P) or Public Enemy are inducted.. Good for them.. 

[Walter]

First off, Simmons is pissed it took KISS that long to get in.  Second he himself has a political agenda.   But everyone here, including Simmons, is correct - rap is NOT rock.  Some infused rock music into their style of rap, but it's not rock.  The fact these other rock bands haven't gotten in just speaks to the b.s. that is the HOF.  As was said earlier, it's just a tourist attraction in a city that needs one.

[Disco Duck]

On 4/12/2016 at 10:34 PM, 2bitnogoodjive said:

Nothing really, just thought I would throw that out there as part of the discussion.  I am clueless as to why rap artists are being inducted  unless it's part of a political agenda as you say and I agree with the poster above that the HOF is meaningless.

The Rock-and-Roll Hall of Fame has inducted many groups or individuals who fall outside the rock genre. Nat King Cole, The Bee Gees, The Mamas and the Papas, and Johnny Cash come to mind.  All four made major contributions to popular music but I wouldn't consider any of them rockers.  

[TypeO]

Fuck it.

I think the rage and intensity NWA brought to their music is what made it Rock-and-Roll.
I think Rock-and-Roll is and always has been a state of mind more than a particular template.

And there's a lot of rap that embodies that same spirit, even if it doesn't fit everyone's preconception of what is and what isn't Rock-and-Roll.

And for the inevitable harsh criticisms of Rap and whether it even qualifies as music, I would hope you're as consistently critical of Punk, and the mindless screaming "vocals" across the same 3 basic chords any beginner child could master.
Ditto for all the cookie-cutter Cookie Monster Death Metal vocals.

First off, anyone that describes rap as nothing more than simply talking over sampled tracks is revealing how utterly clueless they are about Rap.
It's been a *really* long time since sampling another song - particularly for the main hook of the song - was popular.
It reached its peak by the very early 90s, when even familiar TV show theme songs were sampled as the primary portion of the newly created song.
That's not to say it never happens anymore, it's just not the norm anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.

Dr. Dre comes to mind as one of the first to create more original hooks and beats, many heavily influenced by the heavy grooves of 70s Funk.
These days, a lot of Rap is laid over richly-textured hooks and riffs, with the same hypnotic grooves that bands like Tool and even Zeppelin employ(ed).

Creating rhymes that flow with the beat is a hell of a lot more difficult and challenging than just screaming into a heavily-distorted mic over a crashing wave of double-pedal double-bass drums and searing guitar.
Sure, sometimes you're in the mood for some adrenaline-pumping metal, and that's cool, too.
But don't dismiss the ability to keep rapid-fire lyrics on pace for extended verses, because what Rap has done is move the vocalist into the lead position.
So instead of guitar solos, the Rap artist uses their voice, their vocals as the driving focus of the tune.
They are telling a story - often stream-of-conciousness style - using slang and colloquialisms unique to their culture, and it is, without question, creative in the truest sense of the concept, and is so regardless of whether you think it is or not.

It's what makes your head nod to the beat, not what specific instruments are utilized that makes Rock-and-Roll.

And even though this samples an old Shirley Bassey song from the early 70s (Public Enemy is from that old-school era that *did* sample other songs a lot I mentioned earlier), someone please explain to me how this *isn't* Rock-and-Roll...
 

 

 

[Sathington Willoughby]

2 hours ago, TypeO said:

Fuck it.

I think the rage and intensity NWA brought to their music is what made it Rock-and-Roll.
I think Rock-and-Roll is and always has been a state of mind more than a particular template.

And there's a lot of rap that embodies that same spirit, even if it doesn't fit everyone's preconception of what is and what isn't Rock-and-Roll.

And for the inevitable harsh criticisms of Rap and whether it even qualifies as music, I would hope you're as consistently critical of Punk, and the mindless screaming "vocals" across the same 3 basic chords any beginner child could master.
Ditto for all the cookie-cutter Cookie Monster Death Metal vocals.

First off, anyone that describes rap as nothing more than simply talking over sampled tracks is revealing how utterly clueless they are about Rap.
It's been a *really* long time since sampling another song - particularly for the main hook of the song - was popular.
It reached its peak by the very early 90s, when even familiar TV show theme songs were sampled as the primary portion of the newly created song.
That's not to say it never happens anymore, it's just not the norm anymore, and hasn't been for a long time.

Dr. Dre comes to mind as one of the first to create more original hooks and beats, many heavily influenced by the heavy grooves of 70s Funk.
These days, a lot of Rap is laid over richly-textured hooks and riffs, with the same hypnotic grooves that bands like Tool and even Zeppelin employ(ed).

Creating rhymes that flow with the beat is a hell of a lot more difficult and challenging than just screaming into a heavily-distorted mic over a crashing wave of double-pedal double-bass drums and searing guitar.
Sure, sometimes you're in the mood for some adrenaline-pumping metal, and that's cool, too.
But don't dismiss the ability to keep rapid-fire lyrics on pace for extended verses, because what Rap has done is move the vocalist into the lead position.
So instead of guitar solos, the Rap artist uses their voice, their vocals as the driving focus of the tune.
They are telling a story - often stream-of-conciousness style - using slang and colloquialisms unique to their culture, and it is, without question, creative in the truest sense of the concept, and is so regardless of whether you think it is or not.

It's what makes your head nod to the beat, not what specific instruments are utilized that makes Rock-and-Roll.

And even though this samples an old Shirley Bassey song from the early 70s (Public Enemy is from that old-school era that *did* sample other songs a lot I mentioned earlier), someone please explain to me how this *isn't* Rock-and-Roll...
 

 

 

[lynxwizard]

It still Sucks, like Gene said, let me know when they put Hendrix in the hip hop hall of fame 

[Disco Duck]

On 4/12/2016 at 0:28 PM, in_the_evening said:

Not a huge Simmons fan, but he HAS a point.  It's interesting, my 15 year old son and his friends love the 80s music stations.  When I ask "what about rap", my son will reply "Rap is just one letter short of Crap".  Most of the kids his age don't like it.  I agree with Simmons, I don't get rap, I don't get how someone talking over a bass beat is rock, or talented for that matter.

 

On 4/11/2016 at 6:19 AM, Charles J. White said:

How can NWA be in the "rock n roll hall of fame", it's a sham, good for NWA but the entire idea of the rock n roll hall of fame is dumb

How can Nat King Cole and the Bee Gees be in the rock'n'roll hall of fame?  

[Charles J. White]

19 hours ago, Disco Duck said:

 

How can Nat King Cole and the Bee Gees be in the rock'n'roll hall of fame?  

I agree, good on NWA, Madona, Cole and so on. To me it should called the Music Hall of Fame not the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame that's all. (By the way, I love the 1960's Bee Gee's, check out Got To Get A Message to you and MA

[Badgeholder Still]

NWA and Madonna aren't in the hof based on the RnR or even musical credentials. They're there to create a foundation for the future of the hall when Wenner and his Boomers run out of acceptable Boomer artists or aren't around to make those decisions. The RnR angle was novel for a while, but broadening the fan base to pop and rap ensures the hall's popularity and profits into the unforeseeable future.

Every time an NWA or a Madonna get inducted, it makes the continuous omissions of RnR bands like MC5, Blue Oyster Cult, Thin Lizzy, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and others all the more glaring. NWA and Madonna are more RnR than "Kick Out The Jams" and "Ace Of Spades"? More RnR than Lemmy? Maybe in a parallel universe.

Ice Cube's so RnR he 's doing glamorized Hollywood biopics of his youth and Barbershop 3. You're ready to celebrate raw music about violence and murder? Really? Then how is GG Allin not an inductee? 

Let 'em induct who they want. It's meaningless. 

[Disco Duck]

Just now, Badgeholder Still said:

NWA and Madonna aren't in the hof based on the RnR or even musical credentials. They're there to create a foundation for the future of the hall when Wenner and his Boomers run out of acceptable Boomer artists or aren't around to make those decisions. The RnR angle was novel for a while, but broadening the fan base to pop and rap ensures the hall's popularity and profits into the unforeseeable future.

Every time an NWA or a Madonna get inducted, it makes the continuous omissions of RnR bands like MC5, Blue Oyster Cult, Thin Lizzy, Motorhead, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest and others all the more glaring. NWA and Madonna are more RnR than "Kick Out The Jams" and "Ace Of Spades"? More RnR than Lemmy? Maybe in a parallel universe.

Ice Cube's so RnR he 's doing glamorized Hollywood biopics of his youth and Barbershop 3. You're ready to celebrate raw music about violence and murder? Really? Then how is GG Allin not an inductee? 

Let 'em induct who they want. It's meaningless. 

So why did they induct Nat King Cole and Johnny Cash?  Both men were major figures in American music but neither was a rock artist; nor do they appeal to a younger demographic.  As much as I dislike hiphop, I think the HOF has made the correct decision to consider the major artists in this genre for induction.   Like it or not, (and I don't) it has replaced soul and funk as the most popular "black" music genre.  Hiphop has another thing going for it: African-Americans exercise far more financial control in hiphop than they ever did in rock-and-roll, jazz or blues.  

[IpMan]

When discussing the RRHOF remember this, Jann Wenner runs the WHOLE thing. He has veto power over any potential inductee and anyone he wants inducted cannot be vetoed by anyone else, even a majority. Jann said years ago that The Moody Blues will never be inducted as long as he is alive.

Jann Wenner is a dick, the RRHOF is a physical extension of Jann Wenner, thus the RRHOF is for all intent and purpose meaningless anyway since it is a party of one.

I agree with both TypeO & Badgeholder though on their points. Rap is RnR as far as I am concerned and good rap takes talent just as good rock takes talent. I love me my Run DMC, NWA, Public Enemy, Digital Underground, Snoop Dogg (hell yes!), Biz Markie, Biggie, Tupac, however Dre can kiss my ass since he is a woman beating piece of garbage, fuck that guy.

Time for some Gin & Juice...I am OUT!

[ScarletMacaw]

On 4/16/2016 at 1:01 AM, Disco Duck said:

So why did they induct Nat King Cole and Johnny Cash?  Both men were major figures in American music but neither was a rock artist; nor do they appeal to a younger demographic.  As much as I dislike hiphop, I think the HOF has made the correct decision to consider the major artists in this genre for induction.   Like it or not, (and I don't) it has replaced soul and funk as the most popular "black" music genre.  Hiphop has another thing going for it: African-Americans exercise far more financial control in hiphop than they ever did in rock-and-roll, jazz or blues.  

So were the great soul and funk bands inducted? They were more "rock" than rap is. Is Donna Summer in the RnRHOF? (I don't know; I'm asking). How about Sly and the Family Stone? Earth Wind and Fire? The Supremes?