Revolution?

[Nathan]

Considered the best by whom? Socialist liberals? Regardless, of course I am aware it requires a socialist utopian

society to be fully realized. It does fail because self-interest is innate to the human condition.

Anyone and everyone who studies and whose job is government.

And exactly.

There is not and can never be a perfect government because it is a human enterprise and humans act in self-interest and are short of perfection. You may recall when Obama spoke in Berlin last year he said "we're not perfect" before inferring he believes perfect governement is achievable. Socialist.

Amen. And yeah, I recall that speech. Made me cringe...

BTW, did you see my question to you? Saying that I bet you, at one point in your life, lived in a small Communist society? And I say that because everybody has. If you ever lived in a place with other people, and any of them were your friends and did things for your family when any when of you were sick or when someone in your family died, etc, then you have lived in a small Communist society. Can you figure out what I'm talking about?

[BIGDAN]

Oh my, Danny,

Sounds like you are leaning toward communism.

You can put whatever Spin you want to about my post, but i never said anything about Communism, please dont label me with your "McCarthyism" i'm too good for that one.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/McCarthyism

You are promoting bringing down the people who are working, earning, and with their efforts, making society better for everyone as well as benefiting themselves just to even the playing field and to offset those who are less fortunate.

Not in the slightest, the people that you say that i'm "promoting bringing down", the "people who are working, earning, and with their efforts, making society better for everyone as well as benefiting themselves" are the ones i'm definately not after, its the ones that are Running Society, not those that are working for a better life for themselves and by paying Taxes for all of us.

Classic steal from the rich to give to the poor.

Better that than to Steal from the Poor to Give to the Rich, which is exactly what the position is at the moment.

This strategy has been proven to be unsuccessful.

Only because the Rich are too Powerfull, being "unsuccessful" does not mean "Wrong" does it?

You don't punish the rich.

You dont punish the Poor either, but as the Rich get their wealth from exploiting the Poor then its only Right that they should Pay in my opinion.

They are the ones contributing to the charities, volunteering, working on ways to make the world in general more prosperous.

You wouldnt need Charities if the Rich didnt make people so poor as for them to need Charity in the first place would you? Charity is just the Rich's way of Clearing their Concience of the Evil that they really do, in my honest opinion. The poor do charity work for each other every day and dont ask for a Penny in doing so or ask to be Recognised for doing it, not like the Rich who collect money from the Poor to then give back to the Poor and want everyone to pat them on the back for doing a wonderful job as well as filling their coffers at the same time and at the Poor's expence.

You can't raise the poor up by punishing and bringing down the rich. Period. And social revolts, as you are referring to in your number 2, only hurt the poor in the long run. Look at the French Revolution. It didn't make life better for the poor, it only allowed Napoleon to rise to power years later.

The Napolenoic Era rose out of the Surfdom that France had created, that surfdom existed all across Europe, given time Napoleon might have changed the lot for European Peasents for the better far more quickly than it happened in reality. The Napolenoic Era was not a bad thing, it helped changed Europe for the Good, if it had gone further then all the Royal Houses of Europe would have fallen, not a bad thing really, and as this was the start of Real Democracy in Europe i cant see what you think is so bad about it, it followed the American Revolution didnt it? and that was a good thing wasent it?

The poor were the ones conscripted to his armies where millions lost their lives in the egomaniac's quest to conquer the world.

Sorry, dont all World Leaders do exactly the same thing? Isnt that exactly what America has gotten in to right now? an "egomaniac's quest to conquer the world" or at least Govern it by Proxi? I might be in the minority but my understanding of what Europe was like before Napoleon came along was not a nice place to live if you were a peasent, what happened when Napoleon came to Power was a Revolution in itself, his "Code de Napoleon" is still part of French Law to this day. For me one of the truely Great European Leaders of all time, i would rather have had him than any of the XVIII Louis that came before him.

Becoming more social, as you suggest, will only serve to deplete our treasury with the government's excess spending in the name of socialism.

Better than hoarding all the wealth amongst the Few at the Very Top of Society, you treasury will be depleated by whatever Government you elect because that is all your allowed to elect, if someone came up with a better way to Govern your Country your Secret Service would "Issue Him With a Round" as they say.

The long term result will be that all citizens will become dependent on the government for everything and will cease to be productive.

Better that than being Slaves or Peasants or Surfs as you would want us to be, of a Greedy Evil State.

Those working will pay astronimical taxes to support those who choose not to work, and they will get tired of working without personal gain, so no one will work anymore. No new inventions, breakthroughs, innovations, ideas to benefit society.

Same old argument from way back, and thats exactly whats happening now only for the opposite reason that you are pointing to, people have no belief in a future so they wont work for the peanuts that are on offer, so pay them what they are worth rather than allowing Foreign Workers to do their Jobs for a lot less money thus allowing the Rich to get even Richer.

The decline of our nation will insue. But I gather that this is what you want, as evidenced by your disparaging remarks about America.

If your Country and its Government would turn from its Evil Ways then i would be the first to applaud it, but it wont will it? So yes for the first time you are right, i would just love to see your Great Country of America Decline, you deserve it wholeheartedly, mine too, these countries that hold "Wealth" and "Greed" higher than "Health Care" deserve to be brought down in my opinion.

As you say to the Rich of America, "Have a nice day"

And too the Poor, "Have a nice day, it might be your last"

Regards, (or should i say "Have a nice day") Danny

[Nathan]

No. You obviously have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about. I'll tell you:

Community

That's what Marx was trying to create. A giant, country-wide community. This:

Communism

Community

is not a coincidence. That's what Marx wanted. A giant community.

Is your textbook titled "It Takes a Village"? Nathan, I bet you that you didn't formulate this intellectual rubbish of a family and friends constituting a "small Communist society" on your own. Anyone left in your failing Republic with their fucking eyes open should be able to discern this is in fact what Monday's "teachable moment" is all about:

First Published: in Komunistka, No. 2, 1920, and in English in The Worker, 1920;

Source: Selected Writings of Alexandra Kollontai, Allison & Busby, 1977;

Translated: by Alix Holt.

The state is responsible for the upbringing of children

But even if housework disappears, you may argue, there are still the children to look after. But here too, the workers' state will come to replace the family, society will gradually take upon itself all the tasks that before the revolution fell to the individual parents. Even before the revolution, the instruction of the child had ceased to be the duty of the parents. Once the children had attained school age the parents could breathe more freely, for they were no longer responsible for the intellectual development of their offspring. But there were still plenty of obligations to fulfil. There was still the matter of feeding the children, buying them shoes and clothes and seeing that they developed into skilled and honest workers able, when the time came, to earn their own living and feed and support their parents in old age. Few workers' families however, were able to fulfil these obligations. Their low wages did not enable them to give the children enough to eat, while lack of free time prevented them from devoting the necessary attention to the education of the rising generation. The family is supposed to bring up the children, but in reality proletarian children grow up on the streets. Our forefathers knew some family life, but the children of the proletariat know none. Furthermore, the parents' small income and the precarious position in which the family is placed financially often force the child to become an independent worker at scarcely ten years of age. And when children begin, to earn their own money they consider themselves their own masters, and the words and counsels of the parents are no longer law; the authority of the parents weakens, and obedience is at an end.

Just as housework withers away, so the obligations of parents to their children wither away gradually until finally society assumes the full responsibility. Under capitalism children were frequently, too frequently, a heavy and unbearable burden on the proletarian family. Communist society will come to the aid of the parents. In Soviet Russia the Commissariats of Public Education and of Social Welfare are already doing much to assist the family. We already have homes for very small babies, creches, kindergartens, children's colonies and homes, hospitals and health resorts for sick children. restaurants, free lunches at school and free distribution of text books, warm clothing and shoes to schoolchildren. All this goes to show that the responsibility for the child is passing from the family to the collective.

[BUCK'EYE' DOC]

Hey BIGDAN,

You are so funny, you make me laugh!!

Your reply is hillarious!

You must like to argue just for the sake of arguing, because no one can truely believe what you posted.

Edited to say: I don't know why your quote in red regarding my previous post didn't come through?

[Dzldoc]

Oh my, Danny,

Sounds like you are leaning toward communism.

You can put whatever Spin you want about my post, but i never said anything about Communism, please dont label me with your "McCarthyism" i'm too good for that one.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/McCarthyism

You are promoting bringing down the people who are working, earning, and with their efforts, making society better for everyone as well as benefiting themselves just to even the playing field and to offset those who are less fortunate.

Not in the slightest, the people that you say that i'm "promoting bringing down", the "people who are working, earning, and with their efforts, making society better for everyone as well as benefiting themselves" are the ones i'm definately not after, its the ones that are Running Society, not those that are working for a better life for themselves and by paying Taxes for all of us.

Classic steal from the rich to give to the poor.

Better that than to Steal from the Poor to Give to the Rich, which is exactly what the position is at the moment.

This strategy has been proven to be unsuccessful.

Only because the Rich are too Powerfull, being "unsuccessful" does not mean "Wrong" does it?

You don't punish the rich.

You dont punish the Poor either, but as the Rich get their wealth from exploiting the Poor then its only Right that they should Pay in my opinion.

They are the ones contributing to the charities, volunteering, working on ways to make the world in general more prosperous.

You wouldnt need Charities if the Rich didnt make people so poor as for them to need Charity in the first place would you? Charity is just the Rich's way of Clearing their Concience of the Evil that they really do, in my honest opinion. The poor do charity work for each other every day and dont ask for a Penny in doing so or ask to be Recognised for doing it, not like the Rich who collect money from the Poor to then give back to the Poor and want everyone to pat them on the back for doing a wonderful job as well as filling their coffers at the same time and at the Poor's expence.

You can't raise the poor up by punishing and bringing down the rich. Period. And social revolts, as you are referring to in your number 2, only hurt the poor in the long run. Look at the French Revolution. It didn't make life better for the poor, it only allowed Napoleon to rise to power years later.

The Napolenoic Era rose out of the Surfdom that France had created, that surfdom existed all across Europe, given time Napoleon might have changed the lot for European Peasents for the better far more quickly than it happened in reality. The Napolenoic Era was not a bad thing, it helped changed Europe for the Good, if it had gone further then all the Royal Houses of Europe would have fallen, not a bad thing really, and as this was the start of Real Democracy in Europe i cant see what you think is so bad about it, it followed the American Revolution didnt it? and that was a good thing wasent it?

The poor were the ones conscripted to his armies where millions lost their lives in the egomaniac's quest to conquer the world.

Sorry, dont all World Leaders do exactly the same thing? Isnt that exactly what America has gotten in to right now? an "egomaniac's quest to conquer the world" or at least Govern it by Proxi? I might be in the minority but my understanding of what Europe was like before Napoleon came along was not a nice place to live if you were a peasent, what happened when Napoleon came to Power was a Revolution in itself, his "Code de Napoleon" is still part of French Law to this day. For me one of the truely Great European Leaders of all time, i would rather have had him than any of the XVIII Louis that came before him.

Becoming more social, as you suggest, will only serve to deplete our treasury with the government's excess spending in the name of socialism.

Better than hoarding all the wealth amongst the Few at the Very Top of Society, you treasury will be depleated by whatever Government you elect because that is all your allowed to elect, if someone came up with a better way to Govern your Country your Secret Service would "Issue Him With a Round" as they say.

The long term result will be that all citizens will become dependent on the government for everything and will cease to be productive.

Better that than being Slaves or Peasants or Surfs as you would want us to be, of a Greedy Evil State.

Those working will pay astronimical taxes to support those who choose not to work, and they will get tired of working without personal gain, so no one will work anymore. No new inventions, breakthroughs, innovations, ideas to benefit society.

Same old argument from way back, and thats exactly whats happening now only for the opposite reason that you are pointing to, people have no belief in a future so they wont work for the peanuts that are on offer, so pay them what they are worth rather than allowing Foreign Workers to do their Jobs for a lot less money thus allowing the Rich to get even Richer.

The decline of our nation will insue. But I gather that this is what you want, as evidenced by your disparaging remarks about America.

If your Country and its Government would turn from its Evil Ways then i would be the first to applaud it, but it wont will it? So yes for the first time you are right, i would just love to see your Great Country of America Decline, you deserve it wholeheartedly, mine too, these countries that hold "Wealth" and "Greed" higher than "Health Care" deserve to be brought down in my opinion.

As you say to the Rich of America, "Have a nice day"

And too the Poor, "Have a nice day, it might be your last"

Regards, (or should i say "Have a nice day") Danny

Stop watching the Michael Moore videos!

[cryingbluerain]

Remember Obama saying this?

- To achieve health care reform, "I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process."

He has not even mentioned that lately and the media has not called him on it. Obama said a lot of things the public is oblivious to. Now look at our current situation. Insurance companies according to him are the villains. No discussion. Just another broken campaign promise from this administration.

[SteveAJones]

Sunday, Sept 8th 2009

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House is set to release on Monday the text of a controversial back-to-school speech to students from President Obama that has angered some conservative parents and pundits.

The uproar over President Obama's back-to-school speech has led the White House to release the transcript.

The text of the 18-minute speech will be posted on the White House Web site so people can read it before its scheduled Internet broadcast to schoolchildren Tuesday.Some conservatives have expressed a fear that Obama is going to use the opportunity to press a partisan political agenda.

"Thinking about my kids in school having to listen to that just really upsets me," suburban Colorado mother Shanneen Barron told CNN Denver affiliate KMGH. "I'm an American. They are Americans, and I don't feel that's OK. I feel very scared to be in this country with our leadership right now."

On Sunday, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan said that parents who are threatening to keep their children home Tuesday to avoid Obama's speech were being "silly."

Appearing on the CBS program "Face the Nation," Duncan emphasized that it is up to school officials whether to include the speech in the day's activities and that the message of the speech is simply to encourage children to finish school.

"That's just silly," he said of anyone planning to have their kids stay home because of the speech. "They can go to school. They can not watch."

The speech is about "the president challenging young people," Duncan asserted.

Some school administrators have decided to show the president's speech, but others will not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Secretary of Education Arne Duncan can kiss my ass. He knows damn well it isn't just the speech which sparked this controversy, it is also the lesson plan his department developed for educators which calls for a worshipful rather than critical approach and pushed the kids to pledge their personal support to the President. Duncan has also failed to explain why his dept provided the materials directly to school principals, circumnavigating district superintendents and school boards. Now those same superintendents are directing their schools not to participate and I applaud them for it.

Undoubtedly the speech so graciously being provided for the public to review tomorrow (on a national frigging holiday when many are on the road) is quite different from the one he originally intended to give. A better man would have called this whole "silly" event off.

Note: Obama's self-admitted communist pal Van Jones quietly resigned over this holiday weekend. Guess someone else will be appointed to funnel 30 billion dollars in stimulus funds to special interests.

[SteveAJones]

September 7, 2009

Obama speech to school children: 'You make your own future'

Posted: September 7th, 2009 12:28 PM ET

The White House has released the full text of President Obama's speech to school children Tuesday:

Prepared Remarks of President Barack Obama

Back to School Event

Arlington, Virginia

September 8, 2009

The President: Hello everyone how's everybody doing today? I'm here with students at Wakefield High School in Arlington, Virginia. And we've got students tuning in from all across America, kindergarten through twelfth grade. I'm glad you all could join us today.

I know that for many of you, today is the first day of school. And for those of you in kindergarten, or starting middle or high school, it's your first day in a new school, so it's understandable if you're a little nervous. I imagine there are some seniors out there who are feeling pretty good right now, with just one more year to go. And no matter what grade you're in, some of you are probably wishing it were still summer, and you could've stayed in bed just a little longer this morning.

I know that feeling. When I was young, my family lived in Indonesia for a few years, and my mother didn't have the money to send me where all the American kids went to school. So she decided to teach me extra lessons herself, Monday through Friday at 4:30 in the morning.

Now I wasn't too happy about getting up that early. A lot of times, I'd fall asleep right there at the kitchen table. But whenever I'd complain, my mother would just give me one of those looks and say, "This is no picnic for me either, buster."

So I know some of you are still adjusting to being back at school. But I'm here today because I have something important to discuss with you. I'm here because I want to talk with you about your education and what's expected of all of you in this new school year.

Now I've given a lot of speeches about education. And I've talked a lot about responsibility.

I've talked about your teachers' responsibility for inspiring you, and pushing you to learn.

I've talked about your parents' responsibility for making sure you stay on track, and get your homework done, and don't spend every waking hour in front of the TV or with that Xbox.

I've talked a lot about your government's responsibility for setting high standards, supporting teachers and principals, and turning around schools that aren't working where students aren't getting the opportunities they deserve.

But at the end of the day, we can have the most dedicated teachers, the most supportive parents, and the best schools in the world and none of it will matter unless all of you fulfill your responsibilities. Unless you show up to those schools; pay attention to those teachers; listen to your parents, grandparents and other adults; and put in the hard work it takes to succeed.

And that's what I want to focus on today: the responsibility each of you has for your education. I want to start with the responsibility you have to yourself.

Every single one of you has something you're good at. Every single one of you has something to offer. And you have a responsibility to yourself to discover what that is. That's the opportunity an education can provide.

Maybe you could be a good writer maybe even good enough to write a book or articles in a newspaper but you might not know it until you write a paper for your English class. Maybe you could be an innovator or an inventor maybe even good enough to come up with the next iPhone or a new medicine or vaccine but you might not know it until you do a project for your science class. Maybe you could be a mayor or a Senator or a Supreme Court Justice, but you might not know that until you join student government or the debate team.

And no matter what you want to do with your life I guarantee that you'll need an education to do it. You want to be a doctor, or a teacher, or a police officer? You want to be a nurse or an architect, a lawyer or a member of our military? You're going to need a good education for every single one of those careers. You can't drop out of school and just drop into a good job. You've got to work for it and train for it and learn for it.

And this isn't just important for your own life and your own future. What you make of your education will decide nothing less than the future of this country. What you're learning in school today will determine whether we as a nation can meet our greatest challenges in the future.

You'll need the knowledge and problem-solving skills you learn in science and math to cure diseases like cancer and AIDS, and to develop new energy technologies and protect our environment. You'll need the insights and critical thinking skills you gain in history and social studies to fight poverty and homelessness, crime and discrimination, and make our nation more fair and more free. You'll need the creativity and ingenuity you develop in all your classes to build new companies that will create new jobs and boost our economy.

We need every single one of you to develop your talents, skills and intellect so you can help solve our most difficult problems. If you don't do that if you quit on school you're not just quitting on yourself, you're quitting on your country.

Now I know it's not always easy to do well in school. I know a lot of you have challenges in your lives right now that can make it hard to focus on your schoolwork.

I get it. I know what that's like. My father left my family when I was two years old, and I was raised by a single mother who struggled at times to pay the bills and wasn't always able to give us things the other kids had. There were times when I missed having a father in my life. There were times when I was lonely and felt like I didn't fit in.

So I wasn't always as focused as I should have been. I did some things I'm not proud of, and got in more trouble than I should have. And my life could have easily taken a turn for the worse.

But I was fortunate. I got a lot of second chances and had the opportunity to go to college, and law school, and follow my dreams. My wife, our First Lady Michelle Obama, has a similar story. Neither of her parents had gone to college, and they didn't have much. But they worked hard, and she worked hard, so that she could go to the best schools in this country.

Some of you might not have those advantages. Maybe you don't have adults in your life who give you the support that you need. Maybe someone in your family has lost their job, and there's not enough money to go around. Maybe you live in a neighborhood where you don't feel safe, or have friends who are pressuring you to do things you know aren't right.

But at the end of the day, the circumstances of your life what you look like, where you come from, how much money you have, what you've got going on at home that's no excuse for neglecting your homework or having a bad attitude. That's no excuse for talking back to your teacher, or cutting class, or dropping out of school. That's no excuse for not trying.

Where you are right now doesn't have to determine where you'll end up. No one's written your destiny for you. Here in America, you write your own destiny. You make your own future.

That's what young people like you are doing every day, all across America.

Young people like Jazmin Perez, from Roma, Texas. Jazmin didn't speak English when she first started school. Hardly anyone in her hometown went to college, and neither of her parents had gone either. But she worked hard, earned good grades, got a scholarship to Brown University, and is now in graduate school, studying public health, on her way to being Dr. Jazmin Perez.

I'm thinking about Andoni Schultz, from Los Altos, California, who's fought brain cancer since he was three. He's endured all sorts of treatments and surgeries, one of which affected his memory, so it took him much longer hundreds of extra hours to do his schoolwork. But he never fell behind, and he's headed to college this fall.

And then there's Shantell Steve, from my hometown of Chicago, Illinois. Even when bouncing from foster home to foster home in the toughest neighborhoods, she managed to get a job at a local health center; start a program to keep young people out of gangs; and she's on track to graduate high school with honors and go on to college.

Jazmin, Andoni and Shantell aren't any different from any of you. They faced challenges in their lives just like you do. But they refused to give up. They chose to take responsibility for their education and set goals for themselves. And I expect all of you to do the same.

That's why today, I'm calling on each of you to set your own goals for your education and to do everything you can to meet them. Your goal can be something as simple as doing all your homework, paying attention in class, or spending time each day reading a book. Maybe you'll decide to get involved in an extracurricular activity, or volunteer in your community. Maybe you'll decide to stand up for kids who are being teased or bullied because of who they are or how they look, because you believe, like I do, that all kids deserve a safe environment to study and learn. Maybe you'll decide to take better care of yourself so you can be more ready to learn.

And along those lines, I hope you'll all wash your hands a lot, and stay home from school when you don't feel well, so we can keep people from getting the flu this fall and winter.

Whatever you resolve to do, I want you to commit to it. I want you to really work at it.

I know that sometimes, you get the sense from TV that you can be rich and successful without any hard work that your ticket to success is through rapping or basketball or being a reality TV star, when chances are, you're not going to be any of those things.

But the truth is, being successful is hard. You won't love every subject you study. You won't click with every teacher. Not every homework assignment will seem completely relevant to your life right this minute. And you won't necessarily succeed at everything the first time you try.

That's OK. Some of the most successful people in the world are the ones who've had the most failures. JK Rowling's first Harry Potter book was rejected twelve times before it was finally published. Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team, and he lost hundreds of games and missed thousands of shots during his career. But he once said, "I have failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."

These people succeeded because they understand that you can't let your failures define you you have to let them teach you. You have to let them show you what to do differently next time. If you get in trouble, that doesn't mean you're a troublemaker, it means you need to try harder to behave. If you get a bad grade, that doesn't mean you're stupid, it just means you need to spend more time studying.

No one's born being good at things, you become good at things through hard work. You're not a varsity athlete the first time you play a new sport. You don't hit every note the first time you sing a song. You've got to practice. It's the same with your schoolwork. You might have to do a math problem a few times before you get it right, or read something a few times before you understand it, or do a few drafts of a paper before it's good enough to hand in.

Don't be afraid to ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask for help when you need it. I do that every day. Asking for help isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength. It shows you have the courage to admit when you don't know something, and to learn something new. So find an adult you trust a parent, grandparent or teacher; a coach or counselor and ask them to help you stay on track to meet your goals.

And even when you're struggling, even when you're discouraged, and you feel like other people have given up on you don't ever give up on yourself. Because when you give up on yourself, you give up on your country.

The story of America isn't about people who quit when things got tough. It's about people who kept going, who tried harder, who loved their country too much to do anything less than their best.

It's the story of students who sat where you sit 250 years ago, and went on to wage a revolution and found this nation. Students who sat where you sit 75 years ago who overcame a Depression and won a world war; who fought for civil rights and put a man on the moon. Students who sat where you sit 20 years ago who founded Google, Twitter and Facebook and changed the way we communicate with each other.

So today, I want to ask you, what's your contribution going to be? What problems are you going to solve? What discoveries will you make? What will a president who comes here in twenty or fifty or one hundred years say about what all of you did for this country?

Your families, your teachers, and I are doing everything we can to make sure you have the education you need to answer these questions. I'm working hard to fix up your classrooms and get you the books, equipment and computers you need to learn. But you've got to do your part too. So I expect you to get serious this year. I expect you to put your best effort into everything you do. I expect great things from each of you. So don't let us down don't let your family or your country or yourself down. Make us all proud. I know you can do it.

Thank you, God bless you, and God bless America.

[SteveAJones]

...and now an opposing point of view

I Quit, I Think

Originally published in The Wall Street Journal, July 25th, 1991

by John Taylor Gatto

I've taught public school for 26 years but I just can't do it anymore. For years I asked the local school board and superintendent to let me teach a curriculum that doesn't hurt kids, but they had other fish to fry. So I'm going to quit, I think.

I've come slowly to understand what it is I really teach: A curriculum of confusion, class position, arbitrary justice, vulgarity, rudeness, disrespect for privacy, indifference to quality, and utter dependency. I teach how to fit into a world I don't want to live in.

I just can't do it anymore. I can't train children to wait to be told what to do; I can't train people to drop what they are doing when a bell sounds; I can't persuade children to feel some justice in their class placement when there isn't any, and I can't persuade children to believe teachers have valuable secrets they can acquire by becoming our disciples. That isn't true.

Government schooling is the most radical adventure in history. It kills the family by monopolizing the best times of childhood and by teaching disrespect for home and parents.

An exaggeration? Hardly. Parents aren't meant to participate in our form of schooling, rhetoric to the contrary. My orders as schoolteacher are to make children fit an animal training system, not to help each find his or her personal path.

The whole blueprint of school procedure is Egyptian, not Greek or Roman. It grows from the faith that human value is a scarce thing, represented symbolically by the narrow peak of a pyramid.

That idea passed into American history through the Puritans. It found its "scientific" presentation in the bell curve, along which talent supposedly apportions itself by some Iron Law of biology.

It's a religious idea and school is its church. New York City hires me to be a priest. I offer rituals to keep heresy at bay. I provide documentation to justify the heavenly pyramid.

Socrates foresaw that if teaching became a formal profession something like this would happen. Professional interest is best served by making what is easy to do seem hard; by subordinating laity to priesthood. School has become too vital a jobs project, contract-giver and protector of the social order to allow itself to be "re-formed." It has political allies to guard its marches.

That's why reforms come and go-without changing much. Even reformers can't imagine school much different.

David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you can't tell which one learned first — the five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I will label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too.

For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He won't outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education." After a few months she'll be locked into her place forever.

In 26 years of teaching rich kids and poor, I almost never met a "learning disabled" child; hardly every met a "gifted and talented" one, either. Like all school categories, these are sacred myths, created by the human imagination. They derive from questionable values we never examine because they preserve the temple of schooling.

That's the secret behind short-answer tests, bells, uniform time blocks, age grading, standardization, and all the rest of the school religion punishing our nation.

There isn't a right way to become educated; there are as many ways as fingerprints. We don't need state-certified teachers to make education happen–that probably guarantees it won't.

How much more evidence is necessary? Good schools don't need more money or a longer year; they need real free-market choices, variety that speaks to every need and runs risks. We don't need a national curriculum, or national testing either. Both initiatives arise from ignorance of how people learn, or deliberate indifference to it.

I can't teach this way any longer. If you hear of a job where I don't have to hurt kids to make a living, let me know. Come fall I'll be looking for work, I think.

[BIGDAN]

Stop watching the Michael Moore videos!

Sorry Chas, i havent a clue as to what "Michael Moore videos!" are so you have me there.

Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

Sorry Chas, i havent a clue as to what "Michael Moore videos!" are so you have me there.

Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

Hey BIGDAN,

You are so funny, you make me laugh!!

Your reply is hillarious!

You must like to argue just for the sake of arguing, because no one can truely believe what you posted.

Edited to say: I don't know why your quote in red regarding my previous post didn't come through?

Hi Doc,

So glad to be of such a sorce of entertainment for you.

Arguing, whos arguing? not me for sure, i'm just telling you as i see it, and i do truely believe what i posted, and thats what really matters isnt it?

Sorry about the "Red" i can see it very well but if you or others cant i shall change colours, what would you like? the choice is yours.

Regards, Danny

[BIGDAN]

Hi ET,

Thanks for your prompt reply, i still dont get the connection between my post and this link, please fill me in as it seems that Charles's Humour isnt traveling to well across the ocean at the moment, might be me, i admit that, but it would sure be helpful if he and others like him would state in word of no more than two syllables when adressing "Stupid" people like myself, what they actually mean wouldnt it?

Again thanks ET, Kind Regards, Danny

[eternal light]

Hi ET,

Thanks for your prompt reply, i still dont get the connection between my post and this link, please fill me in as it seems that Charles's Humour isnt traveling to well across the ocean at the moment, might be me, i admit that, but it would sure be helpful if he and others like him would state in word of no more than two syllables when adressing "Stupid" people like myself, what they actually mean wouldnt it?

Again thanks ET, Kind Regards, Danny

Hi Big D,

You were discussing the rich and the poor, which happens to be one of Michael Moore's favorite topics.

[Aquamarine]

I "truly believe" what you posted, too, Danny, and don't see why others feel the need to respond to someone they don't agree with by trying to belittle them.

That, Mary Hartman posting incomprehensible b.s. and goading others into losing their tempers (then feigning innocence), pedophiles hiding under every rock thinking we want to discuss music with them (and feigning innocence), arguments that become personal and/or unpleasant when they could easily have remained as discussions, adults making posts that 13-year-olds should be embarrassed by--these are just some of the reasons I'm outta here.

[SteveAJones]

I "truly believe" what you posted, too, Danny, and don't see why others feel the need to respond to someone they don't agree with by trying to belittle them.

That, Mary Hartman posting incomprehensible b.s. and goading others into losing their tempers (then feigning innocence), pedophiles hiding under every rock thinking we want to discuss music with them (and feigning innocence), arguments that become personal and/or unpleasant when they could easily have remained as discussions, adults making posts that 13-year-olds should be embarrassed by--these are just some of the reasons I'm outta here.

Aquamarine, once again you have overlooked this is a predominantly adult forum for a rock and roll band.

If your leaving (and few who declare so ever do) might I recommend a link: www.playhousedisney.com

[BIGDAN]

I "truly believe" what you posted, too, Danny, and don't see why others feel the need to respond to someone they don't agree with by trying to belittle them.

That, Mary Hartman posting incomprehensible b.s. and goading others into losing their tempers (then feigning innocence), pedophiles hiding under every rock thinking we want to discuss music with them (and feigning innocence), arguments that become personal and/or unpleasant when they could easily have remained as discussions, adults making posts that 13-year-olds should be embarrassed by--these are just some of the reasons I'm outta here.

You are a Queen Aqua, many many thanks mate.

And i dont feel one bit belittled either, so dony worry on my behalf (well you can if you want to) i can hold my own with the best of them. But you are a Gem, i didnt think that there was anybody out there who would be on my wavelenght and see what i see, some have the "Gift of Sight" while other will never see because they wont open their eyes.

Very Kind Regards, Danny

PS, Sorry to everyone for any misunderstandings, its "People" that i Love and "Governments" that i Hate, so now you know.

[BIGDAN]

Hi Big D,

You were discussing the rich and the poor, which happens to be one of Michael Moore's favorite topics.

Hi ET,

Mine too, thanks for the links, he's my kinda guy you know?

But is he for real or just trying to Piss Take?

Regards, Danny

[SteveAJones]

Michael Moore video

I've got Eternal Light Is On But Nobody's Home on permanent ignore but I saw this video when you posted it.

I hit stop and punched out after 20 seconds. It's not that I think the police are above criticism, or that they

never make mistakes, it's that fat fucks like Michael Moore cultivate a climate in that country that encourages

people to emulate and surround themselves with communists, anarchists and anti-Americans. If you've seen

one of his films you've seen them all.

[eternal light]

Hi ET,

Mine too, thanks for the links, he's my kinda guy you know?

But is he for real or just trying to Piss Take?

Regards, Danny

Hi Big D,

He is for real.

[Aquamarine]

Aquamarine, once again you have overlooked this is a predominantly adult forum for a rock and roll band.

If your leaving (and few who declare so ever do) might I recommend a link: www.playhousedisney.com

And I have no idea WTF this has to do with what I said. In fact, far from overlooking this point, that exactly WAS my point. That's why I'm no longer interested in having stupid and unnecessary arguments, LIKE THIS ONE, or in all the rest of it. And if you can prove to me that Mary Hartman belongs on a "predominantly adult forum," of any kind, I'd be--highly surprised.

Your "once again" suggests that, once again, you're taking my complaints to refer to you, which they didn't (I was actually referring to Buckeye Doc thinking Danny's attitude wasn't worth taking seriously), but actually who cares? Thanks for the link, Steve. Over and out.

[SteveAJones]

And I have no idea WTF this has to do with what I said. In fact, far from overlooking this point, that exactly WAS my point. That's why I'm no longer interested in having stupid and unnecessary arguments, LIKE THIS ONE, or in all the rest of it. And if you can prove to me that Mary Hartman belongs on a "predominantly adult forum," of any kind, I'd be--highly surprised.

Your "once again" suggests that, once again, you're taking my complaints to refer to you, which they didn't (I was actually referring to Buckeye Doc thinking Danny's attitude wasn't worth taking seriously), but actually who cares? Thanks for the link, Steve. Over and out.

Look, the kids have got their playhousedisney.com so I'd like to think we could enjoy a predominantly adult rock and roll forum on Led freaking Zeppelin's official website. I don't know where Mary Hartman belongs and I don't particularly care. This is a well-moderated forum and I leave it to the moderation team to keep things sorted. If you enjoy exchanging posts about Led Zeppelin stick around, but it's entirely up to you. I do my part to keep this forum entertaining and worthwhile but believe me there are no prizes to be won no matter what one does.

Edited to add: I am warning you with peace and love not to let them get under your skin. I use the permanent ignore function. It works just fine.

[BIGDAN]

I've got Eternal Light Is On But Nobody's Home on permanent ignore but I saw this video when you posted it.

I hit stop and punched out after 20 seconds. It's not that I think the police are above criticism, or that they

never make mistakes, it's that fat fucks like Michael Moore cultivate a climate in that country that encourages

people to emulate and surround themselves with communists, anarchists and anti-Americans. If you've seen

one of his films you've seen them all.

Hi Steve,

Please dont take this as a personal attack on your dear self, but why do you want to antagonise people on here that are really just OK kinda guys, just because your Politics are at different ends of the Spectrum?

It seems to me that Michael Moore is only pointing out the Imbalance in the Corrupt System that is called "Democracy" surely an inteligent person such as yourself can see that? He isnt inherently bad and he does bring to light the "Wrongs" that are failing in American Society, the man deserves a Medal rather than a Bullet.

Being a communists, anarchists or anti-American is no more worse than being a "Capitalist" or a "Democrat" in my book, everybody needs to feel free to express their own feeling on Politics or you will have us in a situation that faced Germany Pre War, and nobody wants that do they Steve? Do you Steve? I'm mean, what should we call you next? Herr Jones?

I've always supported Socialism, i am not a Lover of Communisum, Nazism, Facism or Capitalism, but Socialism seems like the others, not to be able to work in this world, or others wont let it work, but for me it is still the Best Alternative to the Corruption we call "Capitalism".

Just my honest opinion, Regards, Danny

[SteveAJones]

Hi Steve,

Please dont take this as a personal attack on your dear self, but why do you want to antagonise people on here that are really just OK kinda guys, just because your Politics are at different ends of the Spectrum?

It seems to me that Michael Moore is only pointing out the Imbalance in the Corrupt System that is called "Democracy" surely an inteligent person such as yourself can see that? He isnt inherently bad and he does bring to light the "Wrongs" that are failing in American Society, the man deserves a Medal rather than a Bullet.

Being a communists, anarchists or anti-American is no more worse than being a "Capitalist" or a "Democrat" in my book, everybody needs to feel free to express their own feeling on Politics or you will have us in a situation that faced Germany Pre War, and nobody wants that do they Steve? Do you Steve? I'm mean, what should we call you next? Herr Jones?

I've always supported Socialism, i am not a Lover of Communisum, Nazism, Facism or Capitalism, but Socialism seems like the others, not to be able to work in this world, or others wont let it work, but for me it is still the Best Alternative to the Corruption we call "Capitalism".

Just my honest opinion, Regards, Danny

It is a spectrum and I take a stridently principled stance on where I believe I am in the prism. I've been called a fascist, a bigot, a NeoCon, you name it. I'm fine with that, but we are at a point in history where democracy and

capitalism are under full assault. I am NOT a Republican, and if someone has a "D" in their political title it doesn't

make them a dick, just tragically misguided. No, I'm taking issue with ridiculous notions such as "one man's

terrorist is another man's freedom fighter". Democracy and capitalism do have inherent limitations, but last time

I checked they don't require blind obedience to political figures, nor have they lead to putting people in ovens or mass executions of women and children on snow-covered fields. Guys like Moore and Oliver Stone (hobnobbing with Hugo Chavez at the moment) insult the entire spectrum when they purposefully distort American history and misrepresent complicated events so as to simplify them for a dumbed-down audiences. The fact they can do so and find suckers willing to buy it is a testament to the same democracy and capitalism they mock.

[eternal light]

Steve, seeing as you are an adult, would you kindly keep your insulting remarks toward me off the message board? Thank you.