Revolution?

[SteveAJones]

NYC Freedom Tower cornerstone gets new home

AP

Last Updated: 12:26 PM, September 8, 2009

Posted: 12:25 PM, September 8, 2009

HAUPPAUGUE, N.Y. -- A 20-ton block of granite once envisioned as the cornerstone for New York's Freedom Tower is getting a new home on Long Island.Although dedicated at the ground zero site in 2004, the stone was quietly removed in 2006 and returned to the company where it was inscribed.

The stone was initially hauled away to allow for actual construction at ground zero.

Innovative Stone CEO Karen Pearse says now it's not clear if the 5 1/2-foot-tall stone will ever return to New York City. Rather than keep it in storage, Pearse says the company wants to give it a place of honor.

Giant cranes moved the stone on Tuesday to a garden in front of the Hauppaugue (HAH'-pahg) facility. It will be rededicated on Friday, the eighth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nearly eight years after the attacks and they've essentially gotten no further than the cornerstone. Pathetic.

[TypeO]

Sorry to post from a website owned by such a blatantly conservative, anti-Obama organization like CNN, but here's a pretty interesting "Top 5" list...

5 freedoms you'd lose in health care reform

If you read the fine print in the Congressional plans, you'll find that a lot of cherished aspects of the current system would disappear.

NEW YORK (Fortune) -- In promoting his health-care agenda, President Obama has repeatedly reassured Americans that they can keep their existing health plans -- and that the benefits and access they prize will be enhanced through reform.

A close reading of the two main bills, one backed by Democrats in the House and the other issued by Sen. Edward Kennedy's Health committee, contradict the President's assurances. To be sure, it isn't easy to comb through their 2,000 pages of tortured legal language. But page by page, the bills reveal a web of restrictions, fines, and mandates that would radically change your health-care coverage.

If you prize choosing your own cardiologist or urologist under your company's Preferred Provider Organization plan (PPO), if your employer rewards your non-smoking, healthy lifestyle with reduced premiums, if you love the bargain Health Savings Account (HSA) that insures you just for the essentials, or if you simply take comfort in the freedom to spend your own money for a policy that covers the newest drugs and diagnostic tests -- you may be shocked to learn that you could lose all of those good things under the rules proposed in the two bills that herald a health-care revolution.

In short, the Obama platform would mandate extremely full, expensive, and highly subsidized coverage -- including a lot of benefits people would never pay for with their own money -- but deliver it through a highly restrictive, HMO-style plan that will determine what care and tests you can and can't have. It's a revolution, all right, but in the wrong direction.

Let's explore the five freedoms that Americans would lose under Obamacare:

1. Freedom to choose what's in your plan

The bills in both houses require that Americans purchase insurance through "qualified" plans offered by health-care "exchanges" that would be set up in each state. The rub is that the plans can't really compete based on what they offer. The reason: The federal government will impose a minimum list of benefits that each plan is required to offer.

Today, many states require these "standard benefits packages" -- and they're a major cause for the rise in health-care costs. Every group, from chiropractors to alcohol-abuse counselors, do lobbying to get included. Connecticut, for example, requires reimbursement for hair transplants, hearing aids, and in vitro fertilization.

The Senate bill would require coverage for prescription drugs, mental-health benefits, and substance-abuse services. It also requires policies to insure "children" until the age of 26. That's just the starting list. The bills would allow the Department of Health and Human Services to add to the list of required benefits, based on recommendations from a committee of experts. Americans, therefore, wouldn't even know what's in their plans and what they're required to pay for, directly or indirectly, until after the bills become law.

2. Freedom to be rewarded for healthy living, or pay your real costs

As with the previous example, the Obama plan enshrines into federal law one of the worst features of state legislation: community rating. Eleven states, ranging from New York to Oregon, have some form of community rating. In its purest form, community rating requires that all patients pay the same rates for their level of coverage regardless of their age or medical condition.

Americans with pre-existing conditions need subsidies under any plan, but community rating is a dubious way to bring fairness to health care. The reason is twofold: First, it forces young people, who typically have lower incomes than older workers, to pay far more than their actual cost, and gives older workers, who can afford to pay more, a big discount. The state laws gouging the young are a major reason so many of them have joined the ranks of uninsured.

Under the Senate plan, insurers would be barred from charging any more than twice as much for one patient vs. any other patient with the same coverage. So if a 20-year-old who costs just $800 a year to insure is forced to pay $2,500, a 62-year-old who costs $7,500 would pay no more than $5,000.

Second, the bills would ban insurers from charging differing premiums based on the health of their customers. Again, that's understandable for folks with diabetes or cancer. But the bills would bar rewarding people who pursue a healthy lifestyle of exercise or a cholesterol-conscious diet. That's hardly a formula for lower costs. It's as if car insurers had to charge the same rates to safe drivers as to chronic speeders with a history of accidents.

3. Freedom to choose high-deductible coverage

The bills threaten to eliminate the one part of the market truly driven by consumers spending their own money. That's what makes a market, and health care needs more of it, not less.

Hundreds of companies now offer Health Savings Accounts to about 5 million employees. Those workers deposit tax-free money in the accounts and get a matching contribution from their employer. They can use the funds to buy a high-deductible plan -- say for major medical costs over $12,000. Preventive care is reimbursed, but patients pay all other routine doctor visits and tests with their own money from the HSA account. As a result, HSA users are far more cost-conscious than customers who are reimbursed for the majority of their care.

The bills seriously endanger the trend toward consumer-driven care in general. By requiring minimum packages, they would prevent patients from choosing stripped-down plans that cover only major medical expenses. "The government could set extremely low deductibles that would eliminate HSAs," says John Goodman of the National Center for Policy Analysis, a free-market research group. "And they could do it after the bills are passed."

4. Freedom to keep your existing plan

This is the freedom that the President keeps emphasizing. Yet the bills appear to say otherwise. It's worth diving into the weeds -- the territory where most pundits and politicians don't seem to have ventured.

The legislation divides the insured into two main groups, and those two groups are treated differently with respect to their current plans. The first are employees covered by the Employee Retirement Security Act of 1974. ERISA regulates companies that are self-insured, meaning they pay claims out of their cash flow, and don't have real insurance. Those are the GEs (GE, Fortune 500) and Time Warners (TWX, Fortune 500) and most other big companies.

The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered." Under ERISA, the plans can do pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and community rating and can reward employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.

But read on.

The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.

The outlook is worse for the second group. It encompasses employees who aren't under ERISA but get actual insurance either on their own or through small businesses. After the legislation passes, all insurers that offer a wide range of plans to these employees will be forced to offer only "qualified" plans to new customers, via the exchanges.

The employees who got their coverage before the law goes into effect can keep their plans, but once again, there's a catch. If the plan changes in any way -- by altering co-pays, deductibles, or even switching coverage for this or that drug -- the employee must drop out and shop through the exchange. Since these plans generally change their policies every year, it's likely that millions of employees will lose their plans in 12 months.

5. Freedom to choose your doctors

The Senate bill requires that Americans buying through the exchanges -- and as we've seen, that will soon be most Americans -- must get their care through something called "medical home." Medical home is similar to an HMO. You're assigned a primary care doctor, and the doctor controls your access to specialists. The primary care physicians will decide which services, like MRIs and other diagnostic scans, are best for you, and will decide when you really need to see a cardiologists or orthopedists.

Under the proposals, the gatekeepers would theoretically guide patients to tests and treatments that have proved most cost-effective. The danger is that doctors will be financially rewarded for denying care, as were HMO physicians more than a decade ago. It was consumer outrage over despotic gatekeepers that made the HMOs so unpopular, and killed what was billed as the solution to America's health-care cost explosion.

The bills do not specifically rule out fee-for-service plans as options to be offered through the exchanges. But remember, those plans -- if they exist -- would be barred from charging sick or elderly patients more than young and healthy ones. So patients would be inclined to game the system, staying in the HMO while they're healthy and switching to fee-for-service when they become seriously ill. "That would kill fee-for-service in a hurry," says Goodman.

In reality, the flexible, employer-based plans that now dominate the landscape, and that Americans so cherish, could disappear far faster than the 5 year "grace period" that's barely being discussed.

Companies would have the option of paying an 8% payroll tax into a fund that pays for coverage for Americans who aren't covered by their employers. It won't happen right away -- large companies must wait a couple of years before they opt out. But it will happen, since it's likely that the tax will rise a lot more slowly than corporate health-care costs, especially since they'll be lobbying Washington to keep the tax under control in the righteous name of job creation.

The best solution is to move to a let-freedom-ring regime of high deductibles, no community rating, no standard benefits, and cross-state shopping for bargains (another market-based reform that's strictly taboo in the bills). I'll propose my own solution in another piece soon on Fortune.com. For now, we suffer with a flawed health-care system, but we still have our Five Freedoms. Call them the Five Endangered Freedoms.

Since roughly 15-20 million Americans would still be uninsured under Obamacare, it's becoming more and more obvious that Obama's true intent is not to make sure every single American has healthcare insurance, but to control the healthcare insurance of every American who does have it.

[SteveAJones]

Since roughly 15-20 million Americans would still be uninsured under Obamacare, it's becoming more and more obvious that Obama's true intent is not to make sure every single American has healthcare insurance, but to control the healthcare insurance of every American who does have it.

You got it. Fortunately, public option is D.O.A. It's all over but the futile speeches.

[eternal light]

I think the idea is to expand the options available to people, rather than limit them. Often times, people cannot get coverage for some medical needs, cancer treatments, for instance, because the insurance policies won't or can't cover those costs. Cancer patients can easily be bankrupted by medical expenses.

I suppose the government will resort to more grants in the future to cover some of the health care needs that are essential and that insurance does not cover. If so, then it's important to monitor the people who administer the grants so that the funds are well spent and well accounted for in order to get value for the taxpayers.

Wherever President Obama's plan fails to allow sufficient flexibility and market forces to prevail in order to preserve quality in health care, he needs to revise his plan. We don't need increased government red tape and bureaucracy in health care or remedies that don't work or that drive up costs.

[TypeO]

Wherever President Obama's plan fails to allow sufficient flexibility and market forces to prevail in order to preserve quality in health care, he needs to revise his plan.

It is my belief that President Obama opposes market forces prevailing.

I think he only gives lip service to the concept while actively initiating measures to prevent it from happening.

His consistent message has been "capitalism is evil, capitalism is broken."

He panders to those who cling to the illusion that he isn't ACTUALLY a socialist at heart by mouthing comforting platitudes of his desire to build a stronger economy while simultaneously proposing measures that are in direct conflict with time-tested principles of economics (e.g., you can't spend your way out of debt).

It's a win-win for him – if any of it actually succeeds, his policy is vindicated; if it fails, he blames it on Bush and capitalism and strengthens his argument for a "fairer" and more "just" economic model, the new code for socialism.

We don't need increased government red tape and bureaucracy in health care or remedies that don't work or that drive up costs.

Which is exactly the end result of these proposals.

[eternal light]

Capitalism works perfectly.

But factor in the need and greed elements and you can have extremes.

If the economy is approaching a model where 3% of the population controls 97% of the wealth, there will be problems for which appropriate remedies will need to happen.

Usually something happens to balance the imbalances.

But two wrongs don't make a right, so the remedies that President Obama proposes must be scrutinized and revised where needed until they are right, before they are passed.

They may never be passed, but there are areas where insurance fails to address essential health care needs.

We may see more health centers modeled after the Center for Disease Control, where the government issues block grants to fund specific health needs where it is cost-effective and results prove the value.

We may. Those in government may actually figure out what they are doing at some point. But until we get beyond the blind leading the blind, people will continue to scrutinize and criticize proposed legislation, as they should.

[SteveAJones]

[Stargroves Tangie]

NYC Freedom Tower cornerstone gets new home

AP

Last Updated: 12:26 PM, September 8, 2009

Posted: 12:25 PM, September 8, 2009

HAUPPAUGUE, N.Y. -- A 20-ton block of granite once envisioned as the cornerstone for New York's Freedom Tower is getting a new home on Long Island.Although dedicated at the ground zero site in 2004, the stone was quietly removed in 2006 and returned to the company where it was inscribed.

The stone was initially hauled away to allow for actual construction at ground zero.

Innovative Stone CEO Karen Pearse says now it's not clear if the 5 1/2-foot-tall stone will ever return to New York City. Rather than keep it in storage, Pearse says the company wants to give it a place of honor.

Giant cranes moved the stone on Tuesday to a garden in front of the Hauppaugue (HAH'-pahg) facility. It will be rededicated on Friday, the eighth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nearly eight years after the attacks and they've essentially gotten no further than the cornerstone. Pathetic.

Steve, here's an article from today's paper about the construction of the Freedom Tower. World Trade Center (I also thought there would've been more progress on this by now)

[BIGDAN]

PART 1.

Valiant attempt on your part to pin those inflated numbers on the U.S., but it won't hold up as entirely factual under the least bit of scrutiny. It's no different than Afghanistan this week, where "NATO killed 70 civilians". No, NATO launched an airstrike on stolen fuel trucks that had the real and immediate potential for carrying out suicide attacks on NATO compounds. The Taliban had lured non-combatants into the imminent strike zone by offering them "free fuel". There are more news outlets than CNN, Danny.

PART 2.

You've also neglected to mention the U.S. gives more humanitarian aid and relief than any other nation. It was

Albright herself who pushed for U.S. intervention in the former Yugoslav republic to halt ethnic cleansing, not

that I am or ever will be in agreement or total alignment with her policies of the time.

PART 3.

It's jihad. They'll continue to murder rich and poor without discrimination. The fix is to kill insurgents on their own soil (and it is working, by the way). It's not a conflict rooted in politics or economics. I too know a little bit about this but we are not going into a comparison of whom has lived through greater carnage. I don't care to discuss it. Besides, by your own admission, you are a terrorist sympathizer so your apology is disengenuous and it's best not to engage with you further on this topic.

PART 1.

What Steve, are you saying that "ones mans terrorist (that being the USA) is another mans freedom fighter"?

Funny because you were saying the exact opposite yesterday, your opinions change like the wind, and about as often i would suppose.

Not everything is "Collaterial Damage" in War, if you fire a Missile, fire a Shell, Drop a Bomb and you Kill "innocent" Civilians then you have to take the Blame, you are a Terrorist to those people however you try to cut it and talk your way out of it. A Terrorist is what you are and just because you Fly The Stars and Stripes behind it doesnt mean you arent one, Americia can be just as much a Terrorist State as Colonial Britain, Colonial France, Colonial Belgium, Nazi Germany, The USSR, or China was, just get over the FACT that you think that America isnt a Terrorist State when History Proclames it most certainly is. Just look at Mary Hartmans Signature, yea the one with John and Yoko and the US Flag and you might, i say might just get what i'm saying.

PART 2.

The U.S. gives more humanitarian aid and relief than any other nation in the World, A FACT

The U.S. Cheats more money out of Third World Countries by underhanded means and price fixing than any other nation in the world. A FACT

I think one negates the other dont you? So there is nothing further for me to add is there?

PART 3.

At the moment the Muslim Jihadists regard the WHOLE of the WESTERN WORLD and ALL THEIR FRIENDS as their ENEMY, thats why they take the MORAL HIGHGROUND and think its OK with GOD to KILL the "rich and poor without discrimination" and NO, i DONT SUPPORT THEM, i UNDERSTAND THEM, is that PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU OR DO YOU WANT IT IN A LARGER TEXT FORMAT AND HIGHLIGHTED RED SO IT GETS ACROSS THE GAP BETWEEN US?

The "apology" i posted has already been acceptd by some of my American Friends who PMd me, so it was not taken as a "disengenuous" one was it? and by the way Steve the "apology" wasnt aimed at you, and why would it be, your not American are you?

Regards, Danny

PS, There is no PS today.

[SteveAJones]

PART 1.

What Steve, are you saying that "ones mans terrorist (that being the USA) is another mans freedom fighter"?

Funny because you were saying the exact opposite yesterday, your opinions change like the wind, and about as often i would suppose.

Not everything is "Collaterial Damage" in War, if you fire a Missile, fire a Shell, Drop a Bomb and you Kill "innocent" Civilians then you have to take the Blame, you are a Terrorist to those people however you try to cut it and talk your way out of it. A Terrorist is what you are and just because you Fly The Stars and Stripes behind it doesnt mean you arent one, Americia can be just as much a Terrorist State as Colonial Britain, Colonial France, Colonial Belgium, Nazi Germany, The USSR, or China was, just get over the FACT that you think that America isnt a Terrorist State when History Proclames it most certainly is. Just look at Mary Hartmans Signature, yea the one with John and Yoko and the US Flag and you might, i say might just get what i'm saying.

PART 2.

The U.S. gives more humanitarian aid and relief than any other nation in the World, A FACT

The U.S. Cheats more money out of Third World Countries by underhanded means and price fixing than any other nation in the world. A FACT

I think one negates the other dont you? So there is nothing further for me to add is there?

PART 3.

At the moment the Muslim Jihadists regard the WHOLE of the WESTERN WORLD and ALL THEIR FRIENDS as their ENEMY, thats why they take the MORAL HIGHGROUND and think its OK with GOD to KILL the "rich and poor without discrimination" and NO, i DONT SUPPORT THEM, i UNDERSTAND THEM, is that PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU OR DO YOU WANT IT IN A LARGER TEXT FORMAT AND HIGHLIGHTED RED SO IT GETS ACROSS THE GAP BETWEEN US?

The "apology" i posted has already been acceptd by some of my American Friends who PMd me, so it was not taken as a "disengenuous" one was it? and by the way Steve the "apology" wasnt aimed at you, and why would it be, your not American are you?

Regards, Danny

PS, There is no PS today.

[~tangerine~]

PART 1.

What Steve, are you saying that "ones mans terrorist (that being the USA) is another mans freedom fighter"?

Funny because you were saying the exact opposite yesterday, your opinions change like the wind, and about as often i would suppose.

Not everything is "Collaterial Damage" in War, if you fire a Missile, fire a Shell, Drop a Bomb and you Kill "innocent" Civilians then you have to take the Blame, you are a Terrorist to those people however you try to cut it and talk your way out of it. A Terrorist is what you are and just because you Fly The Stars and Stripes behind it doesnt mean you arent one, Americia can be just as much a Terrorist State as Colonial Britain, Colonial France, Colonial Belgium, Nazi Germany, The USSR, or China was, just get over the FACT that you think that America isnt a Terrorist State when History Proclames it most certainly is. Just look at Mary Hartmans Signature, yea the one with John and Yoko and the US Flag and you might, i say might just get what i'm saying.

PART 2.

The U.S. gives more humanitarian aid and relief than any other nation in the World, A FACT

The U.S. Cheats more money out of Third World Countries by underhanded means and price fixing than any other nation in the world. A FACT

I think one negates the other dont you? So there is nothing further for me to add is there?

PART 3.

At the moment the Muslim Jihadists regard the WHOLE of the WESTERN WORLD and ALL THEIR FRIENDS as their ENEMY, thats why they take the MORAL HIGHGROUND and think its OK with GOD to KILL the "rich and poor without discrimination" and NO, i DONT SUPPORT THEM, i UNDERSTAND THEM, is that PLAIN ENOUGH FOR YOU OR DO YOU WANT IT IN A LARGER TEXT FORMAT AND HIGHLIGHTED RED SO IT GETS ACROSS THE GAP BETWEEN US?

The "apology" i posted has already been acceptd by some of my American Friends who PMd me, so it was not taken as a "disengenuous" one was it? and by the way Steve the "apology" wasnt aimed at you, and why would it be, your not American are you?

Regards, Danny

PS, There is no PS today.

I haven't seen the apology, or the posts that led up to it (started from the end and now working my way back) but i accept As always, enjoyed your post, Danny. I feel that the average American is caught up in something we can't do anything about. I contribute this to the Bush years.

[TypeO]

BIGDAN, you're a nice enough guy.

But these broad generalizations to justify labeling the U.S. as a terrorist state are really weak.

If you have to go back to taking the land from native Americans to make a point, it's a pretty lame point.

Terrorism has been re-defined so often in recent times as to make it practically undefinable.

Just look at this definition from Answers.com:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Unlawful?

Whose law?

The definition has been intentionally watered-down so as to lend itself to practically any use of force or war.

Wikipedia has a thoroughly expansive coverage of the topic as well, to include the following semi-reasonable list of key criteria to consider:

Most government definitions outline the following key criteria: target, objective, motive, perpetrator, and legitimacy or legality of the act.

The U.S. is far from a terrorist state, and it's highly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Not everything is "Collaterial Damage" in War, if you fire a Missile, fire a Shell, Drop a Bomb and you Kill "innocent" Civilians then you have to take the Blame, you are a Terrorist to those people however you try to cut it and talk your way out of it.

Sorry, this is flawed.

Let's imagine you and I rob a store, the police come and we fire weapons at them, then they fire their weapons and you are killed.

Does that make the policeman who shot you a murderer?

No.

In fact, in my state there is a charge of felony murder, whereby if anyone dies during the commission of a felony (including the exact scenario I just proposed of you and I robbing a store), the perpetrators of the felony are held liable for the death with a charge of murder, even if they did not personally fire the fatal shot.

The liability stems from the fact that the perpetrator(s) created the environment that caused the death and are thus liable.

This is sensible and logical legislation that places liability and responsibility where it belongs - with those who create an environment where a death (innocent or otherwise) is likely to occur.

By the same very reasonable logic, when Hamas launches missiles from civilian neighborhoods, or Al-Qaeda fires RPGs from a mosque or apartment building, THEY are guilty of turning a civilian area into a combat zone, not the Israeli forces who send a missile right back where it was launched from, or the U.S. soldiers who return fire.

I have a hard time taking people serious when they quote rock stars or comedians as representative of their philosophy or way of thinking.

So often I hear Nathan praising Bill Hicks, others likewise with George Carlin.

You yourself just referred to John Lennon as representative of your opinion or point you were making.

It's actually ironic that the picture of Lennon you referred to (below) attributes a quote to Yoko Ono - "Negative thinking is a luxury we cannot afford."

If negative thinking is a luxury, then I would have to classify the blind utopian idealism John and Yoko embraced as masturbatory hedonistic extravagance.

[eternal light]

I feel that the average American is caught up in something we can't do anything about. I contribute this to the Bush years.

John Lennon was not targeted by the government during the Bush years, but rather, during the Nixon years.

lennonfbifiles.com/

The FBI assembled around 300 pages of files on John Lennon in 1971-72, part of President Nixon's effort to deport Lennon to silence him as a critic of the war in Vietnam.

-Jon Wiener

The text of document NY19 was previously blacked out in its entirety under the National Security-Foreign Government Information exemption. The document, described by the FBI as a "Letternead Memorandum" from the Legal Attache in London, was said to contain "information provided by a foreign government." Release of the information on this page, the FBI claimed from 1983 until 2006, "can reasonably be expected to inter alia: lead to foreign diplomatic, economic and military retaliation against the United States."

The document, apparently based on information from Britain's MI5 intelligence agency, reports on Lennon's interview with Tariq Ali and Robin Blackburn, published in the "Red Mole" -- and widely known to the public at the time. It also reports that Lennon met with French Marxist Regis Debray, also well known at the time, and that he signed a petition in support of Prince Sihanouk, the head of the Cambodian government, who was a neutralist. Release of this information in 2006 does not seem to have led to "military retaliaion against the United States."

-Jon Wiener

The same day that FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover wrote to H. R. Haldeman, assistant to Nixon in the White House, he also wrote to the Acting Attorney General conveying the same information. This correspondence indicates the high priority the Lennon case had in the Nixon administration. This release of information contains one sentence previously withheld: "Lennon has taken an interest in 'extreme left-wing activites' in Britain' and is known to be a sympathizer of Trotyskist communists in England." This is a reference to Lennon's ties to London New Left activists and writers Tariq Ali and Robin Blackburn, who published a well-known interview with Lennon in the "Red Mole" in 1970. The FBI has claimed since 1981 that release of this sentence could endanger the National Security of the US.

-Jon Wiener

This memo was sent to E.S. Miller, head of the FBI's Domestic Intelligence Division at the time. Miller was convicted in 1980 of conspiring to violate individuals' civil rights by authorizing break-ins and searchs of the homes of five people suspected of having ties to Weather Underground fugitives. That made Miller (along with Mark Felt) the only FBI agent ever to have been convicted of crimes committed while on duty. Shakeckelford was an unindicted co-conspirator. One additional sentence of this memo has been released: "Lennon has taken interest in 'extreme left-wing activities in Britain' and is known to be sympathizer of Trotksyist communists in England." This sentence has been withheld since 1981 on the grounds that releasing it would endanger the national security of the U.S.

- Jon Wiener

This document has been withheld in its entirety by the FBI since 1981 on the grounds that releasing it could endanger the national security of the US. The document is a letter to John T. Minnich at the American Embassy informing him that the "International Committee for John and Yoko" had been set up to gather support for them in their deportation hearings. The International Committee was not secret; it sought to publicize the injustice of the deportation order. The letterhead and signature remain classified under the national security exemption.

- Jon Wiener

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=tasxWdjIUVM

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=vwdAYDS23yA

[BIGDAN]

I haven't seen the apology, or the posts that led up to it (started from the end and now working my way back) but i accept As always, enjoyed your post, Danny. I feel that the average American is caught up in something we can't do anything about. I contribute this to the Bush years.

Hi Tangerine,

A very nice surprise to hear from you, anytime my dear friend, and thanks for the acceptance, perhaps we can now put it to bed now?

My Being is to Entertain Your Dear Self, as well as many others, if you would like to contribute to my "Charity for Wayward Comedians" then feel free,

Just send $100 to BIGDAN@thehomeofwittybanter.co.uk or if not then please give generously to some other deserving fool.

The Average American as well as the Average Anybody can do little to nothing about anything, the problem precedes Bush by thousands of years i would suppose. A little bit Less at the Top means a Whole lot More at the Bottom, dont you think.

Very Kind Regards to Your Dear Self, Danny

PS, Just got back from the backwaters of Deepest Kent, and while i sat in a lovely field i was only disturbed by watching about 60 planes an hour go overhead, how bad is that? Their Vapour Trails Criss Crossed the Sky like a Battle of Britain Painting.

[ZPN]

I've got Eternal Light Is On But Nobody's Home on permanent ignore but I saw this video when you posted it.

I hit stop and punched out after 20 seconds. It's not that I think the police are above criticism, or that they

never make mistakes, it's that fat fucks like Michael Moore cultivate a climate in that country that encourages

people to emulate and surround themselves with communists, anarchists and anti-Americans. If you've seen

one of his films you've seen them all.

I've watched Michael Moore's films, I like them, and I am not a communist, an anarchist or anti-American, nor do I surround myself with people who are. As to him being a "fat fuck", I am fat too. What does Moore's (or anyone's) weight have to do with anything? Wouldn't you ask that if I called Limbaugh a "fat fuck"? You can only push people so far, Steve, before they shove back. Either I'm gonna quit this place, or I'm coming back and taking my verbal gloves off. No, I won't do that. Decent people who come here (and Led Zep and Sam) don't need to be dragged into the gutter. I'm done, because I can't stay and not swing back. Best wishes Zep fans-it's been nice chatting!

By the way, I saw Obama's speech to the students today and I thought it was great. I thought he was very supportive of teachers and students. Nothing anyone would object to (yes I heard about the lesson plans-they cancelled or changed those). Keith Olbermann said that after the speech, America's students were "immediately assimilated into the Borg collective".

[Dzldoc]

Thought I would interject a little humor into these debates which are pretty good to this point IMHO

Where Do I Sign Up? Drafting Guys over 60 - this is funny & obviously written by a Former Soldier-

New Direction for any war: Send Service Vets over 60!

I am over 60 and the Armed Forces thinks I'm too old to track down terrorists. You can't be older than 42 to join the military. They've got the whole thing ass-backwards. Instead of sending 18-year olds off to fight, they ought to take us old guys. You shouldn't be able to join a military unit until you're at least 35.

For starters: Researchers say 18-year-olds think about sex every 10 seconds. Old guys only think about sex a couple of times a day, leaving us more than 28,000 additional seconds per day to concentrate on the enemy.

Young guys haven't lived long enough to be cranky, and a cranky soldier is a dangerous soldier. 'My back hurts! I can't sleep, I'm tired and hungry' We are impatient and maybe letting us kill some asshole that desperately deserves it will make us feel better and shut us up for a while.

An 18-year-old doesn't even like to get up before 10 a.m. Old guys always get up early to pee so what the hell. Besides, like I said, 'I'm tired and can't sleep and since I'm already up, I may as well be up killing some fanatical S-of-a-B....

If captured we couldn't spill the beans because we'd forget where we put them. In fact, name, rank, and serial number would be a real brainteaser.

Boot camp would be easier for old guys. We're used to getting screamed and yelled at and we're used to soft food. We've also developed an appreciation for guns.. We've been using them for years as an excuse to get out of the house, away from the screaming and yelling.

They could lighten up on the obstacle course however. I've been in combat and didn't see a single 20-foot wall with rope hanging over the side, nor did I ever do any pushups after completing basic training.

Actually, the running part is kind of a waste of energy, too. I've never seen anyone outrun a bullet.

An 18-year-old has the whole world ahead of him. He's still learning to shave, to start up a conversation with a pretty girl. He still hasn't figured out that a baseball cap has a brim to shade his eyes, not the back of his head.

These are all great reasons to keep our kids at home to learn a little more about life before sending them off into harm's way.

Let us old guys track down those dirty rotten coward terrorists. The last thing an enemy would want to see is a couple of million pissed off old farts with attitudes and automatic weapons who know that their best years are already behind them.

***How about recruiting Women over 50 ... with PMS !!! You think Men have attitudes !!! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh my God!!!

If nothing else, put them on border patrol ... we will have it secured the first night!

Share this with your senior friends. It's been purposely written in big type so they can read it

[BIGDAN]

BIGDAN, you're a nice enough guy.

Thanks TypeO, i feel the same about you.

But these broad generalizations to justify labeling the U.S. as a terrorist state are really weak.

If you have to go back to taking the land from native Americans to make a point, it's a pretty lame point.

Terrorism has been re-defined so often in recent times as to make it practically undefinable.

Just look at this definition from Answers.com:

I said that the people that you have attacked, however wrong they may be, are the ones that feel that you as the attacked are guilty of a terrorist act when you target, however mistakenly, civilians.

Unlawful?

Whose law?

The definition has been intentionally watered-down so as to lend itself to practically any use of force or war.

Wikipedia has a thoroughly expansive coverage of the topic as well, to include the following semi-reasonable list of key criteria to consider:

How about the written law of the UN that the US signed up to but will not abide by but expexts everyone else to abide by.

The U.S. is far from a terrorist state, and it's highly disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

The US is the Biggest Terrorist state in the History of the World to this date, go check the facts, they have killed more civilians, in cold blood, than any other Nation State ever, and all this in what just over 200 years.

Sorry, this is flawed.

Let's imagine you and I rob a store, the police come and we fire weapons at them, then they fire their weapons and you are killed.

Does that make the policeman who shot you a murderer?

No.

No your argument is the one that is flawed, the Policeman has been appointed to his Job of Law Enforcement and is doing his job, America took up the role of World Policeman, then deciede to either appoint a Proxy Government that invited her in to sort out their troubles, or took in on herself to invade, and in most cases got a bloody nose and tacticaly withdrew, run away, retreat, whatever, after leaving millions of INNOCENT CIVILIANS DEAD, this is WORLD TERRORISM, the only reason you cant see this is because you are an American and are blinkered and cant see your country as doing any wrong, i on the other hand am not blinkered so i can see clearly and thats why i have come to my conclusion.

In fact, in my state there is a charge of felony murder, whereby if anyone dies during the commission of a felony (including the exact scenario I just proposed of you and I robbing a store), the perpetrators of the felony are held liable for the death with a charge of murder, even if they did not personally fire the fatal shot.

The liability stems from the fact that the perpetrator(s) created the environment that caused the death and are thus liable.

This is sensible and logical legislation that places liability and responsibility where it belongs - with those who create an environment where a death (innocent or otherwise) is likely to occur.

You dont own the Worlds Law Makers yet, or am i mistaken? Is American Law to Superseed all other Laws? If you make the Law then why is it only you that are exempt from them? You will never learn will you? The Muslim World believe you are the Home Of Satan and have earmarked you for destruction, and people say they know the mind set of the Muslims, they know nothing.

By the same very reasonable logic, when Hamas launches missiles from civilian neighborhoods, or Al-Qaeda fires RPGs from a mosque or apartment building, THEY are guilty of turning a civilian area into a combat zone, not the Israeli forces who send a missile right back where it was launched from, or the U.S. soldiers who return fire.

The Isralies are behaving in the same way as the NAZIs treated them, the Isralies, like their American Overlords are another of the Worlds Terrorists States, they took Palestinian Land in 1948, then threw out the Palestinians, do nothing what the UN tells them too, and expect the Palestinians and the rest of the world to applaud their Millitary Overreaction to a Problem they alone have caused. Keep it up, terrorise the Arab civilians and then dont be surprised when their shit hits your fans, because you and the Israilies are just perpetrating more terrorism with your every action.

I have a hard time taking people serious when they quote rock stars or comedians as representative of their philosophy or way of thinking.

Then dont take me seriously, i could care less you know, i say what i say because i believe it, i research it, and i dont exclude my own country from it because i have a blindl love for my country from birth, which i havent.

So often I hear Nathan praising Bill Hicks, others likewise with George Carlin.

You yourself just referred to John Lennon as representative of your opinion or point you were making.

Wrong, i was refering to the Flag not John Lennon, John Lennon is not a representative of my opinion or any point i was making.

It's actually ironic that the picture of Lennon you referred to (below) attributes a quote to Yoko Ono - "Negative thinking is a luxury we cannot afford."

If negative thinking is a luxury, then I would have to classify the blind utopian idealism John and Yoko embraced as masturbatory hedonistic extravagance.

Just read whats on the flag, if its wrong or misquoted then i'm sorry, i just thought it was a good reference and it pointed out what i was trying to say, only better. America has done what it has done, nothing that you can do to rewrite History will change History so please dont try. Only the Facts can lead you to the Truth and the truth is out there for all to see, live with it rather than trying to hide it from view. Its been nice debating with you but its time for bed for me now, Good Night and lets not fall out over this, OK?

Regards, Danny

[SteveAJones]

I've watched Michael Moore's films, I like them, and I am not a communist, an anarchist or anti-American, nor do I surround myself with people who are. As to him being a "fat fuck", I am fat too. What does Moore's (or anyone's) weight have to do with anything? Wouldn't you ask that if I called Limbaugh a "fat fuck"? You can only push people so far, Steve, before they shove back. Either I'm gonna quit this place, or I'm coming back and taking my verbal gloves off. No, I won't do that. Decent people who come here (and Led Zep and Sam) don't need to be dragged into the gutter. I'm done, because I can't stay and not swing back. Best wishes Zep fans-it's been nice chatting!

By the way, I saw Obama's speech to the students today and I thought it was great. I thought he was very supportive of teachers and students. Nothing anyone would object to (yes I heard about the lesson plans-they cancelled or changed those). Keith Olbermann said that after the speech, America's students were "immediately assimilated into the Borg collective".

The speech, his 112th, was little more than a self-esteem exercise. No intrinsic educational value whatsoever.

A biased hack like Olberman will never address the fact this controversy was caused because the Department

of Education unconstitutionally circumnavigated district superintendents and pushed their propoganda, I mean

lesson plan, directly to school principals. Note also the speech was not made available until the day prior. I can

tell you for a fact formal requests to review it the week prior were denied. I guess they needed the extra time to rewrite it.

Anyway, hasta la vista. There were never any prizes to be won regardless of what you may have thought.

[Nathan]

I'm sorry, but this is so worth sharing:

I wanna meet this woman and get her autograph 'cause she is awesome.

[~tangerine~]

John Lennon was not targeted by the government during the Bush years, but rather, during the Nixon years.

Hi Eternal light, i wasn't commenting on Bigdan's post, merely saying i enjoyed it. I had no intention on elaborating on what Bigdan said (some things i agree with, some things maybe not). I was just saying how i feel about the here and now... and that my feelings of apprehension and loss are a result of "the Bush years". IMO, the worst period of time in my existance.

As for John Lennon, i was not commenting on him at all. I have been a Beatles fan for 30 years and i know John's story... and the period of time in which John Lennon lived and died.

[Nathan]

I am so disgutsed with Obama. I mean... honestly... the nerve!

These kids should stay in school? Get an education? Succeed at something?

I mean, what fascist, nazi, socialist, communist propoganda is this?!?!?!?!? As everyone knows, studying and doing well in school is the fast-track to nazi-fascism-communism...

This was such a horrible speech.

What he should have done, instead, was go in to that school and tell these kids that school is evil and that they should all drop out and get home-schooled by white, religious, conservative nut-jobs who'll teach them that guns are awesome-sauce and never killed no one, God created the world in 6 24-hours day, anyone who doesn't believe like them deserves to die, and if you're too poor to afford the over-priced health care the insurance companies use to fuck us all in the ass with, then fuck you 'cause you deserve to die anyway.

Now that would have been a worthy, pro-American speech! Instead, he goes on with this unpatriotic "stay in school" crap.

There no words to express how absolutely sarcastic I'm being right now and how much I can no longer understand what all the fuss was about angry I am with him...

[Electrophile]

I am so disgutsed with Obama. I mean... honestly... the nerve!

These kids should stay in school? Get an education? Succeed at something?

I mean, what fascist, nazi, socialist, communist propoganda is this?!?!?!?!? As everyone knows, studying and doing well in school is the fast-track to nazi-fascism-communism...

This was such a horrible speech.

What he should have done, instead, was go in to that school and tell these kids that school is evil and that they should all drop out and get home-schooled by white, religious, conservative nut-jobs who'll teach them that guns are awesome-sauce and never killed no one, God created the world in 6 24-hours day, anyone who doesn't believe like them deserves to die, and if you're too poor to afford the over-priced health care the insurance companies use to fuck us all in the ass with, then fuck you 'cause you deserve to die anyway.

Now that would have been a worthy, pro-American speech! Instead, he goes on with this unpatriotic "stay in school" crap.

There no words to express how absolutely sarcastic I'm being right now and how much I can no longer understand what all the fuss was about angry I am with him...

I couldn't believe it either. Can you imagine the President of the United States, a biracial man raised by a single mother, asking students to do well in school and value their education and make something of themselves? What kind of lunacy is this? What country are we living in? Why am I asking all these ridiculous questions?

Sometimes, the GOP and their minions scare the FUCK out of me. This is one of those times.

[Jahfin]

As for John Lennon, i was not commenting on him at all. I have been a Beatles fan for 30 years and i know John's story... and the period of time in which John Lennon lived and died.

Please don't tell me you're surprised by this. This person will reply with a string of articles, links and YouTube clips that don't have a damn thing to do with the conversation at hand. Something tells me the acid never wore off.

[Dzldoc]

Please don't tell me you're surprised by this. This person will reply with a string of articles, links and YouTube clips that don't have a damn thing to do with the conversation at hand. Something tells me the acid never wore off.

[SteveAJones]

I couldn't believe it either. Can you imagine the President of the United States, a biracial man raised by a single mother, asking students to do well in school and value their education and make something of themselves? What kind of lunacy is this? What country are we living in? Why am I asking all these ridiculous questions?

Sometimes, the GOP and their minions scare the FUCK out of me. This is one of those times.

It's ALWAYS got to be the GOP with you, right? Never just ordinary Americans who are fed up with this chronic campaigner and all his communist cronies. Assign blame squarely where it belongs - on Arne, the chief of the Department of REDucation who pushed the propoganda packets DIRECTLY to school principals as opposed to coordinating with the superintendents and other established channels for the proper dissemination of learning materials as required by the US Constitution.

The speech was just that, a speech, his 112th since he took office in January. It was of no intrinsic educational value. Just another exercise in collective self-esteem assessment. Waste of time and a pointless distraction.

But the intent, well I've already presented that so scroll up if interested. They'll still attempt to conscript these

kids into accomplishing US census tasks, just watch.