Did Led Zeppelin Rip Off a Folk Singer?

[kaiser]

Whatever the outcome of the court case, this blotch on Zeppelin's musical legacy is finally going to be resolved. If Holmes wins, he gets whatever credit & monies the court see fit, if he loses then he walks away having tried to right a wrong. Done & done either way leaving Page & Plant free to sue Pearl Jam over ripping off "Going To California" for their "Given To Fly" lol.

[sandwich]

For all the people who think Zeppelin stole Dazed and Confused, have you ever heard the "original". I'm amazed that Page could even be inspired by that piece of shit Jake Holmes. He has, had, no talent and doesn't deserve any money for 3 reasons. 1 he sucks. 2 his song sounds nothing like Zeppelin's. 3 He waited too long so he's obviously not "trying to right a wrong", he's just broke and wants some more money.

[BIGDAN]

For all the people who think Zeppelin stole Dazed and Confused, have you ever heard the "original".

Er, Yes.

I'm amazed that Page could even be inspired by that piece of shit Jake Holmes.

Er, No.

He has, had, no talent and doesn't deserve any money for 3 reasons. 1 he sucks.

Er, No he doesn't.

2 his song sounds nothing like Zeppelin's.

Er, it does.

3 He waited too long so he's obviously not "trying to right a wrong", he's just broke and wants some more money.

Er, totally agree.

Now look here 'sandwich' i think you have picked the wrong Name there for if i think of your Name as a Head i don't conjure up a picture of Cheese, Pickle, Onions, Beetroot, Lettuce, Coleslaw, Tomato between two slices, i get the picture of just the two slices, no Filler, or is that another Topic?

Regards, Danny

[Yupter]

For all the people who think Zeppelin stole Dazed and Confused, have you ever heard the "original". I'm amazed that Page could even be inspired by that piece of shit Jake Holmes. He has, had, no talent and doesn't deserve any money for 3 reasons. 1 he sucks. 2 his song sounds nothing like Zeppelin's. 3 He waited too long so he's obviously not "trying to right a wrong", he's just broke and wants some more money.

I can FEEL the hate... good, good...

[tom kid]

This thread is evidence of how some fans get too defensive over Zeppelin. Whoever is raging at Holmes needs to realise that Jimmy did pretty much rip it off.

[Oracle]

This thread is evidence of how some fans get too defensive over Zeppelin. Whoever is raging at Holmes needs to realise that Jimmy did pretty much rip it off.

And many who just stay away from the topic or similar, never daring to say anything remotely negative about the bandmembers.

Shoot, they'd probably remark more about their own parent's faults than and of Led Zeppelin's.

[Deborah J]

And many who just stay away from the topic or similar, never daring to say anything remotely negative about the bandmembers.

Shoot, they'd probably remark more about their own parent's faults than and of Led Zeppelin's.

Hello Oracle!

IMO this whole thing is for the courts to decide. I do feel that Led Zeppelin took this song and made a different sound, COMPLETELY.

And no, I proudly will not make negative comments about Led Zeppelins music or the band members. It's called loyalty for something I love. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but what I am tired of are the negative comments that come from people here about Led Zeppelins music. I am beginning to post less on here as there are times I open a topic and I am automatically either frustrated, saddened or just down right pissed off.

[Tripmender]

For all the people who think Zeppelin stole Dazed and Confused, have you ever heard the "original". I'm amazed that Page could even be inspired by that piece of shit Jake Holmes. He has, had, no talent and doesn't deserve any money for 3 reasons. 1 he sucks. 2 his song sounds nothing like Zeppelin's. 3 He waited too long so he's obviously not "trying to right a wrong", he's just broke and wants some more money.

You're TWO slices short of a sandwich, dude.

D&C evolved from the Yardbirds' version of I'm Confused, as written by Jake Holmes. They didn't even fucking bother to re-name it at that stage. That's not even plagiarism, that's THEFT.

Truth be told, apart from the three cute little pop songs, the whole of LZ1 was an album of cover versions.

[Yupter]

That's not even plagiarism, that's THEFT.

That's not even redundant, that's SUPERFLUOUS.

three cute little pop songs

You must be trippin' Tripmender.

John Paul Jones is becoming weary of this thread

[Tripmender]

That's not even redundant, that's SUPERFLUOUS.

You must be trippin' Tripmender.

John Paul Jones is becoming weary of this thread

Sorry. My mistake. Make that "two cute little pop songs, and a thinly disguised 'tribute' to 'Dear Mr Fantasy' ".

[Ronzo]

My two cents..............

Page= guilty, old news.

Holmes= Why now?

Seriously, I would love to know the reason for this in 2010. Don't really care though. I'll always be a Zep fan and Page turned me on to Davy Grahm and Bert Jansch. Would never have known about them if it weren't for Zeppelin. I also heard Grahm play the "Stairway" intro in "Cry Me a River" recorded before anything Spirit did.

There is so much lifting and "borrowing" in music it isn't even funny but, Page should have been more acknowledgeable (is that a word?) about some of his.

[Yupter]

Sorry. My mistake. Make that "two cute little pop songs, and a thinly disguised 'tribute' to 'Dear Mr Fantasy' ".

Right on, hehe.

..."Cry Me a River"...

That's even more of a stretch than "Taurus". Gotta be careful with those descending arpeggios

[Janet]

Hello Oracle!

IMO this whole thing is for the courts to decide. I do feel that Led Zeppelin took this song and made a different sound, COMPLETELY.

And no, I proudly will not make negative comments about Led Zeppelins music or the band members. It's called loyalty for something I love. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion but what I am tired of are the negative comments that come from people here about Led Zeppelins music. I am beginning to post less on here as there are times I open a topic and I am automatically either frustrated, saddened or just down right pissed off.

Hi Deborah-

The comments on R-O.com are even more negative but I like the fact that people still feel enough passion about LZ to want to discuss this. Don't stop posting here as it is good to hear from all sides.

[Deborah J]

Hi Deborah-

The comments on R-O.com are even more negative but I like the fact that people still feel enough passion about LZ to want to discuss this. Don't stop posting here as it is good to hear from all sides.

Thank you Janet! I do love the forum and the majority of people here.

I guess there will always be the few that want to contribute nothing and only seem to want to degrade and argue.

[Oracle]

Thank you Janet! I do love the forum and the majority of people here.

I guess there will always be the few that want to contribute nothing and only seem to want to degrade and argue.

Posting about negative things as opinion and arguing doesn't mean those aren't contributing. I think you're just angry about it so it clouds your view. You've even said so much.

All is not peaches and ice cream, sometimes there's also nasty ole spinach or eggplant. You can't take the positive without the negative if you want proper nutrition.

[Oracle]

Even moreso than R-O, here's a thread with nearly 25,000 views and hundreds of posts on the Jake Holmes 'Dazed' subject.

Lots of information, positive and negative,

http://stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=220589

[kaiser]

I was reading a Jake Holmes interview in Mojo a few years back & according to him, I believe it was in the late 70's, he had tried to get in touch with the business side of Led Zeppelin about rectifying the "Dazed and Confused" issue. He just wanted a co-writing credit & future roylaties on the song, not even the past ones. Holmes said he never got a response so he just gave up. So if Holmes is to be believed, and I believe he is, on at least one occassion he tried to handle this situation without a lawsuit & was met with nothing. It is well known in Zep circles Holmes passive dislike of the situation & someone on the business side of Zep could have done something to rectify this matter before this ever could have gone to court, but no, don't acknowledge it & it will go away. Well, whether it's 40 years after the fact or what not, I guess Holmes got fed up with the situation & decided to take them to court. And even if his motivation is money, so what. If someone owed me money, let's say an Employer who didn't see it necessary to pay me for work I had done for him/her, whether it was a week or 40 years after the fact, if I still haven't gotten paid for my services I have the right to pursue those unpaid monies no matter how much time elapsed. Whether I would recieve it or not through the courts is another thing, but if I were labeled "money hungry" by those who didn't like my course of action, to bad, it's not money owed to you but unpaid to me. To paraphrase Henry Hill in "Goodfellas": Your house burned down? Fuck you, pay me. Trouble with the wife? Fuck you, pay me. Was Willie Dixon a money hungry guy to go after Zep for "Whole Lotta Love" 10 years after the fact? I don't think so & thankfully in 1985 he recieved the writing credit & money he should have recieved in 1969. Apparently Dixon & his daughter both tried the non-court route much like Holmes & were met with the same response, so court ended up being the right course of action for Dixon.

The funny thing is if in 2010 Zep pursued a court case against let's say Kingdom Come for their song "Get It On" 22 years after it's release this forum would be filled with comments like "Way to go Jimmy!", "Serves those theiving bastards right!" "There's a reason why Jimmy called them Kingdom Clone!". The waves of support would be endless lol. There are plenty of rocks to be thrown in & at the glass house known as the Led Zeppelin Forums page.

[Yupter]

I was reading...action for Dixon.

A dispute such as this should have been addressed within a reasonable time frame (the law). And Mr. Henry Hill wasn't exactly the law abiding citizen.

The funny thing is if in 2010 Zep pursued a court case against let's say Kingdom Come for their song "Get It On" 22 years after it's release this forum would be filled with comments like "Way to go Jimmy!", "Serves those theiving bastards right!" "There's a reason why Jimmy called them Kingdom Clone!". The waves of support would be endless lol. There are plenty of rocks to be thrown in & at the glass house known as the Led Zeppelin Forums page.

Presumptuous a tad?

We could argue all day about what might be, rather than what is.

When all is said and done, if the original artist can get over it, than so should we.

[sandwich]

Sorry Jake Holmes, you suck at making music. I don't care what anybody says, I think Holmes has no talent and should just be lucky some of his lame ass music was picked up by Jimmy Page and made into something that's worth listening to.

[swandown]

I was reading a Jake Holmes interview in Mojo a few years back & according to him, I believe it was in the late 70's, he had tried to get in touch with the business side of Led Zeppelin about rectifying the "Dazed and Confused" issue. He just wanted a co-writing credit & future roylaties on the song, not even the past ones. Holmes said he never got a response so he just gave up. So if Holmes is to be believed, and I believe he is, on at least one occassion he tried to handle this situation without a lawsuit & was met with nothing.

The reason I find Holmes' story hard to believe is that Anne Bredon did almost the exact same thing (wrote a letter to Page, did not file a lawsuit, etc.) and her situation was rectified almost immediately.

[swandown]

Sorry Jake Holmes, you suck at making music. I don't care what anybody says, I think Holmes has no talent and should just be lucky some of his lame ass music was picked up by Jimmy Page and made into something that's worth listening to.

This is just ignorance to the point of trolling.

[cookieshoes]

I also heard Grahm play the "Stairway" intro in "Cry Me a River" recorded before anything Spirit did.

Yep. I think that it's now becoming more common knowledge that Page lifted the intro to "Stairway" from Davy's version of "Cry Me a River". I think a lot of people will always say that it doesn't sound the same, or they assume that Spirit's "Taurus" was the link. But both Page and the dude from Spirit were fans of Davy's. Page was a huge fan of Davy's, in fact. "White Summer" has a bunch of lifts from Graham songs in that one song, not just the main riff that Page lifted. And remember, Page gave no credit to Graham for that song either. So, no matter how much people don't like it (or how much they refuse to hear it), Page is also guilty of not having given Davy any credit for the intro to "Stairway" either.

It's a sad chunk of tarnish on Page's legacy. But I think people do themselves a disservice by persistently denying it. "Whole Lotta Love", "Dazed and Confused", and "Stairway to Heaven" are arguably Zep's three most popular and important songs in their entire catalog. And all three have heavy thievery in them (WLL lyrics, D&C riff and lyric lines, Stairway guitar melody). It sucks big time, but it is what it is. Better that we still enjoy the music, and let Page pay the damages so that he can at least get some closure on these things.

[kaiser]

A dispute such as this should have been addressed within a reasonable time frame (the law). And Mr. Henry Hill wasn't exactly the law abiding citizen.

Presumptuous a tad?

We could argue all day about what might be, rather than what is.

When all is said and done, if the original artist can get over it, than so should we.

Reasonable time frame? The law? What's a reasonable time frame to you & for Jake Holmes? Probably different, considering Jimmy Page didn't co-opt one of your songs. As far as "the law" there are enough loopholes that any good lawyer can argue about what is "a reasonable time frame" on both sides of this case.

As far as Henry Hill, I wasn't comparing him to Jake Holmes but to myself if someone owed me money & how I would feel in Jake Holmes position against Zeppelin regardless of what a bunch of "loyal" Zeppelin fans considered a reasonable time frame to take action if any against them. Instead of Henry Hill I could have used the IRS as an example because their attitude with money they feel is owed to them is the same as the Mafia's, but I don't recall the IRS ever sending me a form letter that said verbatim "Fuck you, pay me", but it's implied.

Presumptious? Don't think so. Firstly I said "if". Secondly "if" that scenario I presented did happen, I have no doubt the people who are coming up with lame anti-Jake Holmes arguments such as time frames, the songs don't sound alike, blah frickity blah, etc would fully support the members of Zeppelin if they sued a band like Kingdom come 22 years after the fact. Re-read some of the posts here by people who give the undying support of whatever Zeppelin does & you tell me that I'm somehow "presumptious". I don't know if the sun will rise tomorrow for certain, but I "presume" it will as it has everyday for all of my 37 years on this planet. I just have a feeling on both accounts that these will or would happen.

Lastly, I don't think the original artist is "over it". If he were, there wouldn't be a court case.

[kaiser]

The reason I find Holmes' story hard to believe is that Anne Bredon did almost the exact same thing (wrote a letter to Page, did not file a lawsuit, etc.) and her situation was rectified almost immediately.

Anne Bredon isn't Jake Holmes & vice versa. It could have been a very different scenario between the two & the reasons why they were handled differently. Anne Bredon's situation was probably not the same as Willie Dixon's, thus a different result. Take each case as it's own.

[kaiser]

The arguments made by some here that Jake Holmes song & Led Zeppelin song sound nothing alike reminds me of the logic of one Vanilla Ice who claimed his "Ice Ice Baby" & Queen's "Under Pressure" were totally different songs.

Vanilla Ice: Their song goes "ding ding ding de ding ding, ding ding ding de ding ding" where mine goes "ding ding ding de ding ding poo pah, ding ding ding de ding ding poo pah". See, they're totally different.

Lol, yup, the "poo pah" made a world of difference. Vanilla Ice can live in his fantasy world along with the anti Jake Holmes contingent.