The relationship between Bill Graham and Led Zeppelin

[bluesunday]

What's the story behind the relationship between Bill Graham and Led Zeppelin? Robert Plant openly criticized Bill in their famous June '73 Kezar performance where he said that Bill barely pays the band anything. After '73, the Zep nixed the San Francisco Bay Area in their first tour '75. And then in '77, Day on the Green, there was a terrible fight and Graham, I believed, vowed never to book Zep again (maybe I'm wrong on this).

Can anyone shed more light as to the relationship between Graham and Zep and speak to these examples? Thank you.

[Jahfin]

It's been years since I read it so I can't speak to your specific questions from memory but I suggest reading this book:

One thing I do recall is that Bill Graham had a pretty strong relationship with Plant.

[SteveAJones]

What's the story behind the relationship between Bill Graham and Led Zeppelin? Robert Plant openly criticized Bill in their famous June '73 Kezar performance where he said that Bill barely pays the band anything. After '73, the Zep nixed the San Francisco Bay Area in their first tour '75. And then in '77, Day on the Green, there was a terrible fight and Graham, I believed, vowed never to book Zep again (maybe I'm wrong on this).

Can anyone shed more light as to the relationship between Graham and Zep and speak to these examples? Thank you.

Actually two shows at the Oakland Coliseum - August 24th & 25th 1975 - were formally announced on July 7th 1975…support from Joe Walsh and The Pretty Things. Both were postponed August 8th following Plant's accident (August 4th) and ultimately cancelled.

There are some excellent if not unfavorable Led Zeppelin anecdotes in Bill Graham's autobiography, though it's worth noting he did go on to promote many of Robert Plant's Bay Area performances as a solo artist.

[bluesunday]

It's been years since I read it so I can't speak to your specific questions from memory but I suggest reading this book:

One thing I do recall is that Bill Graham had a pretty strong relationship with Plant.

Thanks. I'll look for it. But it still doesn't explain why Robert Plant would have openly criticized Graham for not paying the band anything whenever they booked a show with Graham. As I recall growing up in the 70's as a kid, Graham was known for being "chintzy" when it came to working out the agreements with bands that he would promote. In other words, Graham put profits first before relationships. Reading Graham's book would be an awfully one sided opinion about his relationship with bands and the cut he would take as a promoter. I think if Plant made the remark that he did, it's because he definitely did not like the agreement struck with Graham.

[lzzoso]

Thanks. I'll look for it. But it still doesn't explain why Robert Plant would have openly criticized Graham for not paying the band anything whenever they booked a show with Graham. As I recall growing up in the 70's as a kid, Graham was known for being "chintzy" when it came to working out the agreements with bands that he would promote. In other words, Graham put profits first before relationships. Reading Graham's book would be an awfully one sided opinion about his relationship with bands and the cut he would take as a promoter. I think if Plant made the remark that he did, it's because he definitely did not like the agreement struck with Graham.

I think Robert was saying that Graham nevers pays us anything in jest (or jokingly). I really do not think that Robert was serious or was criticizing Bill Graham. Robert does actually go on to praise Graham and says something like "that man has given so much music" (I am paraphrasing) to the San Francisco Bay Area. If I am not mistaken, I think that Roberts comments come from the 1973 Kezar Stadium show.

This is from the Led Zeppelin.com concert timeline:News Report:

50,000 See Led Zeppelin in Bay City

The British rock group Led Zeppelin drew 50,000 rock fans who paid $320,000 at Kezar Stadium last weekend.

Although the 2 ½ hour show Saturday was 6,000 short of capacity, listeners blanketed the football field and stands. Hundreds of others heard the music for free from rooftops in the surrounding neighborhood.

A month ago, Led Zeppelin grossed $309,000 to shatter the Beatles mark in 1965.

Organizers said the group netted better than $1,000 per minute during the show here. It was the second large rock concert in a week at Kezar.

The only casualties reported were some bad drug trips, a broken leg and a security guard accidentally wounded with his own revolver.

More than 250 cars were towed away from illegal parking areas around the stadium, police reported...

I think at this point in Led Zeppelin's career, they were actually paying the promoters their 10% fee. Bill Graham would have netted approximately $30,900 for this gig. (Again, I could be mistaken).

[tom kid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmdi4UWkZb8

Bill Graham is in this video, along with Jimmy Page (playing very sloppily I might add, but it was the ARMS concert. He was in pretty bad shape at the time).

[Jahfin]

Thanks. I'll look for it. But it still doesn't explain why Robert Plant would have openly criticized Graham for not paying the band anything whenever they booked a show with Graham.

No, it doesn't, which is why I stressed that I don't remember any details off the top of my head about what you were asking. I was just trying to point you in the direction of the book since it would help enlighten you as to Bill Graham's relationship with the members of Led Zeppelin.

As I recall growing up in the 70's as a kid, Graham was known for being "chintzy" when it came to working out the agreements with bands that he would promote. In other words, Graham put profits first before relationships.

If you were to read the book you would find that wasn't necessarily true.

Reading Graham's book would be an awfully one sided opinion about his relationship with bands and the cut he would take as a promoter.

It sounds to me like you've already got your mind made up about the content of the book before even turning a single page. He was assisted in writing it by Robert Greenfield. Yes, it's an autobiography but it's not nearly as one-sided as you're assuming.

[mikezep61]

Here's a very interesting and revealing 1983 interview with Bill Graham that was posted to Dime:

http://www.../torrents-details.php?id=355234

In it, Graham goes into detail about his relationship with Robert Plant, Page, and the rest of Zeppelin. It's obvious from the interview that Graham had a lot of respect for Robert Plant and did not place any blame against him for the deterioration in Graham's relationship with the band. In fact, he genuinely seemed to like Robert and was very complimentary of him in many ways. In particular, he was really impressed that Robert took his young son, David, under his wing and they had a real positive friendship. By 1983, it seems Graham had even buried the hatchet with Page and really placed most of the blame for the past problems on Grant, Bonzo, and the heavy entourage.

Having read Bill's autobiography, besides the whole Oakland '77 affair, two things occurred that really pissed off Graham about Zeppelin. One was the 1973 Kezar show when the band went on several hours late because (according to Graham) Jimmy wanted to fly with "regular" people back to S.F. and his flight held up the show. The second thing that sent Graham over the edge, and it was actually quite understandable, was that Zeppelin completely left him holding the bag on the August 1975 Oakland Coliseum shows. Those two shows were cancelled due to Plant's early August car accident; however, Graham had already spent a few hundred thousand dollars on promotions, ticket sales, etc. Rather than be cool about it, Grant told Graham it was "tough shit" because it was an "act of God" and wasn't covered in the contract. Graham never forgave Grant for being so uncool about it and not working together to try and help him out.

[MadScreamingGallery]

It's been a few years since I read the Graham/Greenfield book but I remember Robert talked about the Oakland incident and the relationship between Graham and Grant in the book (I don't know if he was interviewed specifically for the book or if his quotes were reprinted from another interview).

Personally I wasn't comfortable with some of the things that Graham/Greenfield wrote about LZ and their fans. From what I can recall Graham intimated a dark satanic aura/experience and described fans/audiences of aggressive, lower class/caliber males. Based on my own experiences I think both of these were/are unfortunate stereotypes about the band. I also took exception to the quote about the young, underage girls being pulled (unwillingly) out of the audience and verbally or otherwise abused, etc. by LZ's roadies - none of the women I know or have spoken to have ever described such an experience.

I always thought Jimmy was late, not because he wanted to fly with regular people, but because he didn't like the turbulence in the smaller Falcon so he and Grant flew on United. We've talked here on the board about how that led to Grant leasing the Starship for the second leg of the band's U.S. tour.

[mikezep61]

I always thought Jimmy was late, not because he wanted to fly with regular people, but because he didn't like the turbulence in the smaller Falcon so he and Grant flew on United. We've talked here on the board about how that led to Grant leasing the Starship for the second leg of the band's U.S. tour.

This is the exact quote from Bill Graham's autobiography:

"The day that Led Zeppelin played at Kezar, they were flying in from Los Angeles and they had a private plane. One of my guys had a phone on stage and he said, 'Bill, you won't believe this.' Then he told me that nearly everyone in the group was on the plane and the plane was about to land. But at the last minute, Jimmy Page decided that he had gotten bored with flying on the private plane. He wanted to be with just regular people. So he was coming in separately on United Airlines. They all came in one car, Peter Grant and all the bodyguards. They were about two hours late. No Jimmy Page."

Graham talked about how he tried to calm the anxious crowd down and then mentioned:

"Eventually, he got there and went on stage. I was livid all day long. But I did not raise my voice once. Not that day."

Another interesting anecdote from the bio:

Peter Grant called Graham after Plant's son Karac died, and when Graham said 'hello' Peter said "I hope you're happy." Graham said "what are you talking about?" Grant said "thanks to you, Robert Plant's kid died today" and then he hung up the phone.

[lzzoso]

Here's a very interesting and revealing 1983 interview with Bill Graham that was posted to Dime:

http://www.../torrents-details.php?id=355234

In it, Graham goes into detail about his relationship with Robert Plant, Page, and the rest of Zeppelin. It's obvious from the interview that Graham had a lot of respect for Robert Plant and did not place any blame against him for the deterioration in Graham's relationship with the band. In fact, he genuinely seemed to like Robert and was very complimentary of him in many ways. In particular, he was really impressed that Robert took his young son, David, under his wing and they had a real positive friendship. By 1983, it seems Graham had even buried the hatchet with Page and really placed most of the blame for the past problems on Grant, Bonzo, and the heavy entourage.

Having read Bill's autobiography, besides the whole Oakland '77 affair, two things occurred that really pissed off Graham about Zeppelin. One was the 1973 Kezar show when the band went on several hours late because (according to Graham) Jimmy wanted to fly with "regular" people back to S.F. and his flight held up the show. The second thing that sent Graham over the edge, and it was actually quite understandable, was that Zeppelin completely left him holding the bag on the August 1975 Oakland Coliseum shows. Those two shows were cancelled due to Plant's early August car accident; however, Graham had already spent a few hundred thousand dollars on promotions, ticket sales, etc. Rather than be cool about it, Grant told Graham it was "tough shit" because it was an "act of God" and wasn't covered in the contract. Graham never forgave Grant for being so uncool about it and not working together to try and help him out.

I would like to comment on a couple of things from the second paragraph.

How Bill Graham could be "over the edge, and it was actually quite understandable, was that Zeppelin completely left him holding the bag on the August 1975 Oakland Coliseum shows. Those two shows were cancelled due to Plant's early August car accident". Robert Plant and his family (plus Scarlet Page) were involved in a serious car accident about three weeks before this concert was to take place. If this is true then it seems that Bill Graham had no empathy or compassion for the health or well-being of Mr. Plant and his family. His interest was purely financial.

Second, I find it hard to believe that Bill Graham "had already spent a few hundred thousand dollars on promotions, ticket sales, etc". As far as I have read (and know) by 1975, Peter Grant and the Led Zeppelin organization, never spent "a few hundred thousand dollars" to promote any of their tours, much less one (or two) concerts that they were already booked to play and probably already sold out. If this happens to be true, I am sure that Bill Graham had insurance to cover any complete financial loss(es).

Like I have stated on numerous occasions, I do not claim to know everything about Led Zeppelin. I will claim to know less about Bill Graham. However, I am a voracious reader when it comes to subjects that fascinate me, and Led Zeppelin is my favorite fascination.

[SteveAJones]

I always thought Jimmy was late, not because he wanted to fly with regular people, but because he didn't like the turbulence in the smaller Falcon so he and Grant flew on United. We've talked here on the board about how that led to Grant leasing the Starship for the second leg of the band's U.S. tour.

That's correct regardless of what some Bill Graham staffer allegedly said. San Francisco was a very important market for the band and that was a big show. Jimmy would not have blown everything off to "fly with regular people". If I remember correctly they only went on 45 mins late, not two hours.

[Silver Rider]

San Francisco is the place where my friend met both Jimmy Page and Bill Graham.

[Strider]

If I remember correctly they only went on 45 mins late, not two hours.

I guess it all depends on WHEN they were supposed to go on in the first place. I remember the ads saying 2pm being Led Zeppelin's starting time. It sure felt like close to two hours to me.

[mikezep61]

I guess it all depends on WHEN they were supposed to go on in the first place. I remember the ads saying 2pm being Led Zeppelin's starting time. It sure felt like close to two hours to me.

According to a local underground SF newspaper from the time, your 2 hour recollection is a lot closer than 45 minutes. Two reviews had the delay at 90 minutes, and two reviews had the delay at two hours.

Ad:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/san%20francisco%2073/sf73b.jpg

Reviews (both 90 min delays):

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/san%20francisco%2073/sf73.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/sf73e.jpg

Reviews (both 2 hour delays):

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/sf73d.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/sf73c.jpg

Bill Graham was a first class jerk, but who could blame him for being pissed that Zeppelin let the fans stew in a stadium for 90 min./ 2 hrs. before hitting the stage. Graham was known for being a control freak and a royal pain in the ass, but he was also known as someone who wanted to put on a good show for the fans. When you have two massive egos and heavy duty drugs and thugs are involved, it just doesn't end well for anyone.

In Peter Grant's bio by Chris Welch he mentioned Grant's reaction to Graham's bio:

"...when Bill Graham's posthumous account of the Oakland (1977) incident was first published, Peter Grant rang his friend Ed Bicknell, the manager of Dire Straits, at his office in some distress. Bicknell: 'He was in tears on the telephone. He was really crying. I thought something tragic had happened. He said 'It's terrible, this book has come out and it tells the full story.' He gave me the details and I said to Peter, 'This sounds pretty bad, is it true? And he said 'Yes, it is, but I don't want to be thought of as a bad person."

As the old adage goes, there's three sides to every story...

[MadScreamingGallery]

This is the exact quote from Bill Graham's autobiography:

"The day that Led Zeppelin played at Kezar, they were flying in from Los Angeles and they had a private plane. One of my guys had a phone on stage and he said, 'Bill, you won't believe this.' Then he told me that nearly everyone in the group was on the plane and the plane was about to land. But at the last minute, Jimmy Page decided that he had gotten bored with flying on the private plane. He wanted to be with just regular people. So he was coming in separately on United Airlines. They all came in one car, Peter Grant and all the bodyguards. They were about two hours late. No Jimmy Page."

Graham talked about how he tried to calm the anxious crowd down and then mentioned:

"Eventually, he got there and went on stage. I was livid all day long. But I did not raise my voice once. Not that day."

Another interesting anecdote from the bio:

Peter Grant called Graham after Plant's son Karac died, and when Graham said 'hello' Peter said "I hope you're happy." Graham said "what are you talking about?" Grant said "thanks to you, Robert Plant's kid died today" and then he hung up the phone.

That's correct regardless of what some Bill Graham staffer allegedly said. San Francisco was a very important market for the band and that was a big show. Jimmy would not have blown everything off to "fly with regular people". If I remember correctly they only went on 45 mins late, not two hours.

Thanks for the exact quote. It's interesting to me that Graham's (or his staffer's) account of the Kezar trip is so different from what I've always heard from people on the LZ side.

I don't remember the anecdote about Robert's little son. When I read the book I thought Graham's (and the people he interviewed) perceptions and memories of the band were badly tainted by what happened at Oakland as well as his conflicts and disapproval (resentment?) about the way Grant did business. Graham's assessment was harsher than anything I've read or heard from people who worked with LZ and Grant:

In Peter Grant's bio by Chris Welch he mentioned Grant's reaction to Graham's bio:

"...when Bill Graham's posthumous account of the Oakland incident was first published, Peter Grant rang his griend Ed Bicknell, the manager of Dire Straits, at his office in some distress. Bicknell: 'He was in tears on the telephone. He was really crying. I thought something tragic had happened. He said 'It's terrible, this book has come out and it tells the full story.' He gave me the details and I said to Peter, 'This sounds pretty bad, is it true? And he said 'Yes, it is, but I don't want to be thought of as a bad person."

As the old adage goes, there's three sides to every story...

I can imagine Grant doing this! One of my old friends worked with Grant during his years with LZ, she saw the other side of him, and she always said to me: "Grant was a pussycat."

[mikezep61]

Here's yet another review that said the band was over two hours late for the SF 73 show:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a361/AlbumZeppelin/sf73f.jpg

It's pretty safe to say the delay was somewhere between 90 minutes and two hours (certainly not 45 minutes) since all 5 reviews mentioned the delay being 90 minutes or longer.

[Walter]

None of the "reviews" talk about the "water fight backstage" that Robert refers to before the encores begin. Any info. on that?

[spidersandsnakes]

Iron Butterfly once had an issue with Bill over a helicopter.....Bill should have taken LZ more into consideration

[bluesunday]

It sounds to me like you've already got your mind made up about the content of the book before even turning a single page. He was assisted in writing it by Robert Greenfield. Yes, it's an autobiography but it's not nearly as one-sided as you're assuming.

Thankfully, the rest of the people who have posted here have given me a much more fuller picture about Graham's relationship with Zeppelin. I never made up my mind before so you inferred incorrectly.

[Silver Rider]

Thanks for the exact quote. It's interesting to me that Graham's (or his staffer's) account of the Kezar trip is so different from what I've always heard from people on the LZ side.

I don't remember the anecdote about Robert's little son. When I read the book I thought Graham's (and the people he interviewed) perceptions and memories of the band were badly tainted by what happened at Oakland as well as his conflicts and disapproval (resentment?) about the way Grant did business. Graham's assessment was harsher than anything I've read or heard from people who worked with LZ and Grant:

I can imagine Grant doing this! One of my old friends worked with Grant during his years with LZ, she saw the other side of him, and she always said to me: "Grant was a pussycat."

Grant was a very open-hearted, sincere and spontaneous person. It's easy to have empathy for him.

You have to be a little cautious in the Bay area at times. People learned that from Altamont. San Francisco is a wonderful place, but it is also a large urban area with the usual challenges, including the risk of crime and violence. I have learned to be very careful there if a stranger approaches me on the street. It's not the same as in a small town.

[SteveZ98]

According to a local underground SF newspaper from the time, your 2 hour recollection is a lot closer than 45 minutes. Two reviews had the delay at 90 minutes, and two reviews had the delay at two hours.

Didn't a lot of Zeppelin shows start late, at least once they became headliners? It seems like every other bootleg I listen to includes a speech from Robert apologizing for them being late. The recent 3/17/75 soundboard was surprising in that it sounds like they were actually early for that gig, at least according to Robert's comment after Sick Again that "for once in our career we started early, 'cause we didn't want to keep you waiting." I can't recall another time he said anything like that. It was usually something along the lines of "sorry for the delay, there were snowstorms backstage".

[Strider]

It wasn't just Zeppelin...most concerts in the 70's started late...especially the "heavier" bands. It gave the audience more time to get 'luded and liquored up.

The Stones were all-time champs at being late. Of course, Sly Stone found a way to one-up the Stones...by not showing up at all!

[Walter]

Scott Weiland pulled that one on me 3 years ago!

[Jahfin]

Thankfully, the rest of the people who have posted here have given me a much more fuller picture about Graham's relationship with Zeppelin. I never made up my mind before so you inferred incorrectly.

As I've explained at least a couple of times now, it's been a while since I've read the book so it would be impossible to offer more than I did. Among the few things I do remember off the top of my head is that if you read the book, you'll find Graham's reputation as a hard ass preceded him. He was actually an "old softie" or else he wouldn't have had the long term friendships he did with the likes of the Grateful Dead. There's nothing the matter with being a shrewd businessman. Zeppelin knew that as well as anybody, just look at how they conducted themselves as a rock n' roll entity. They were among the first artists to set precedents where they weren't screwed by "the man" as so many others before them were.